True Detective 2.07

[Orange Jennyslipper]

I hope some of you have stayed in the buggy with TD. Sunday was ep 07. Excellent episode on many levels. I'd put it up against anything episode from S1. Last week was great as well.

Next Sunday the conclusion is 90 minutes and even if you've skipped a couple of episodes, it will definitely be worth an hour and half of your time. The good and bad cops and the good and bad bad guys are looking for exactly the same thing. The ones left alive will find it Sunday. Blood will run deep. What is "right" is not the ending I am hoping for. (Who knows what's right and wrong in a story as complicated as this one?)

First half of season was character development. I was as disappointed as anyone about it, but second half would not have near the dramatic and emotional impact it has were it not for understanding the characters so well. A very complex plot with deep and well-defined characters.

I have returned to my original prediction that Vaughn would be great as the bad guy. He has been solid and bad to the bone. All the central characters have been powerfully portrayed and the lesser characters have been phenomenal.

 

[Been Jammin]

I have stayed with it. I think I like it, but I am not totally sure. A few discussion points (some you mentioned, some you didn't).

-I find it to all be extremely confusing. They mention names of characters, and I am often thinking "Who is that again?" Maybe I need to watch it all over again from the beginning.

-I had Ray's boss pegged as the bad guy from the very beginning. He was an actor I recognized, and a guy that was showing up infrequently. Figured he would be a key player in the end.

-How the heck did he know what door the young, gay cop was going to be coming out of ? It seems like the kid was in a tunnel/subway system and could have made his way to the street at about 20 different exit points. I found that scene to be very unrealistic.

-You said that V.V. is a convincing bad guy? Is he the bad guy? I kind of think he might be one of the protagonists. Aren't you rooting for him to kill the guys who effed him and end up with a nice sum of money? I figure he and Ray and Annie will end up helping each other out in the end.

 

[FMPoke]

I've stuck with it. Have to disagree on one major point. Vince Vaughn is horrible. Still the season is interesting if confusing?

We should have learned from Lawn Mower man last year that characters that just seems to be minor players are actually very important. Both Rays boss and now the secretary to city hall.

If she's the girl is Tony the boy?

Not very clear on exactly what everyone's role was in the 92 robbery, murder and coverup?

Ani's discussion with her father was very confusing. Who is the face she remembered and thinks she always knew? Her father? Her grandfather who until now had never been mentioned? The mayor? Still a lot a secrets there.

Woody's shoot out with his former mercenaries was a lot like the shoot out at the meth house. A little too over the top. How did Ray's boss know to be there? What exactly is his roll? He appears to have killed Casper? For the $5 million? Was he the man in the mask who shot Ray?

What exactly is VV play other then to burn everything down? Does he really think he can surprise them at the exchange and steal $12 million all by himself? After he's burnt down the casino and club? That would seem to tip them off.

Gland Ray and Ani got together for one night although by the rules of Hollywood that would have to foreshadow one of their deaths. Also in a show where people nudity is a base stage dressing why were we limited to a junior high make out session. Is Rachel McAdams just the big tease?

I got no predictions for the finale other then someone isn't getting out alive, probably two of the three main characters, and we be left with a lot of unanswered questions My guess Ray survives and somehow makes off with a load of cash. VV dies in his wife arms after a five minutes death scene full of over the top dialog. Ani professes her love for Ray and then is killed at the last minute or maybe Ray dies to save her. Incest will be a big player.

 

[hollywood]

Ray's boss (the Chief of Police of Vinci) was one of the cops that was in on a robbery back in '92, which seemed to have been planned and executed by by several LAPD cops, likely the mayor and the now dead accountant Caspere. They used those funds to set themselves up in Vinci as the powers that be and branched out into all sorts of criminal enterprises. (If they executed one high-end robbery, it stands to reason that there were likely others in which they were involved.) Then they discovered it was easier to steal with the end of a pen, than the end of a gun.

He knew to be there, because he has been running most of the show from the beginning and having all three followed. Clearly, the conspiracy between the people running Vinci and the AG puts a lot of LE resources at their disposal. If they can kill the woman running the State's investigation, how can the other 3 cops figure that they are going to get out alive? (and now that one is already dead, it makes it that much harder.)

BJ, agree with you on the "choosing the right exit to be waiting" thing, although it was the same door in which he entered. But as you noted, he would have had a plethora of doors/exits to choose from. I wouldn't have chosen the same door, I would have gone down the tunnel quite a ways and chosen an exit far away from where I entered and given Paul's background in special ops and tunnel warfare (which has been alluded to over the season) I would assume he would have as well.

 

[FMPoke]

Hollywood

I get most of that however I would point out a couple of big holes in the story. One the Mayor's family has controlled Vinci for years so they didn't need the money to set themselves up. They may have used it to expand but the Mayors family was already in control. Secondly it's never been mention that the Mayor nor Casper were former LA cops. Why would the Mayor have been a cop in LA if he's heir to a already established criminal dynasty. Most interesting is the role of Ray's father. When Ray went to see his Dad he told Ray all about the Chief of Police as a LA cop. He never mentioned the Mayor nor Casper. Is Ray's Dad involved somehow? Based on the Lawn Mower man theory & overall theme of really bad parenting I'm guessing so?

This does answer my question about where the Mayor's power and muscle come from? His former cop buddies have been loyal to him based on him bringing them in after the robbery. Casper obviously double crossed them but why did it take 23 years for them to look for the blue diamonds if Casper stole them in 92. Seems like this would have come to a head a whole lot sooner.

 

[Been Jammin]

I think Caspere was an accountant that worked worked for the police department. Not a cop, but instrumental in the money laundering part of the operation.

My biggest problem with this season is that there are a bunch of key characters who are hardly seen (some not seen at all) and who seem to be key characters in the plot. The key characters talk about these people and discuss things they did in the past, and I am not always clear who they are referring to. IMO, this is a show that could have benefited from some flashbacks to clarify some of what happened in the past and who is involved. Ultimately, I am going to have to decide whether I want to watch it all again or just blow it off.

@FMPoke , My take on what is going on with Ani.... When she was a kid (probably early teens), someone kidnapped her from her father's commune and took her into the woods. She was gone for 4 days. Her father was searching for her. She has repressed most of the memories from that 4 day period, but was saying that she saw the face of the guy who kidnapped her and thinks maybe she always knew what he looked like. I am not sure how she escaped or if the guy was ever caught. But, that event was the main reason she is so screwed up and can't maintain a healthy relationship with a man. It is also the reason she feels the need to constantly train with knives so that she can protect herself in all situations.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat..._the_plot_of_this_confusing_season.html?wpsrc

This answered a lot of my questions.

 

[shortbus]

They all die and corruption continues to rule. Oh and the Dad is the kingpin of everything.

 

[Been Jammin]

@Mr. Blonde
Thanks. That cleared up most of my questions. I had a vestigial understanding of most of it, but have a better appreciation of all of it now.

 

[Chillwell]

I've watched and enjoyed the show. Like it, not love it.

I will brag... I think I was 100% correct when, after episode 1, I called Vince Vaughn's character Michael Corleone-like. He was a gangster, who was trying to go legit. However, the other bad guys won't let him out. So, he's going after the guys who have come after him...hard. They're pulling him back in, so he's going to make them bleed...or at least try.

And I disagree with OP; I don't think Frank is a "bad guy"; he's simply an anti-hero. Hell, he didn't even hook Velcoro with the original lie about his wife's rapist, which I thought he obviously did a couple of episodes ago. I know I'm pulling for Frank. He's an honest criminal, if that makes sense.

I agree with BJ when he mentioned the confusion on the names. I'm exactly the same way. The cops will reel off a list of names, and I'm real fuzzy...who was that again?

Anyway, I am looking forward to the ending.

BTW, just from a smart crime perspective, the idea of bad cops committing a big crime, like jewelry store robbery or burglary, in the middle of the LA riots...that seems like a pretty good plan to me.

 

[100TonsofOrangeFury]

@Mr. Blonde
Thanks. That cleared up most of my questions. I had a vestigial understanding of most of it, but have a better appreciation of all of it now.

Yeah, it does clear it all up pretty much. Appreciate the link.

That said, any show that requires that many words to explain the plotlines is a total failure. I guess it all made sense in Pizzolato's head after he'd spent a million hours crafting it, but it doesn't translate to the viewer.

The scene in this week's episode where they're all three in the hotel room hashing out the whole thing to each other was almost comical in its complexity. I just sat there and rolled my eyes for the second time in the episode, the first being when Woodruh just happened back out the exact right door for skinny cop to cap him. (That was not the same door he entered h-wood, the one he entered was a secured metal door.) This a week after the super-stoned girl is able to run a 8.6 100m down an embankment to be rescued by the three musketeers.

I'll finish it because I'm rooting for Frank but that's about it. Someone at HBO needs to help Pizzolato get a grip before next season.

 

[Been Jammin]

Tons.

Good stuff.

Could not agree more with your final sentence, and your 2nd one.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

I wonder how much the first season was aided by having a single director who also had a pretty strong vision. Might have been a situation where the two strong personalities leading the project kept each others worst impulses in check. It would be nice if they could insist on that for the future.

A quick google says that Pizzolato is the one with an option for season 3, so I doubt they force anything on him.

 

[100TonsofOrangeFury]

In case you missed it, Seth Meyers weighed in:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...id=txtlnkusaolp00000592&kvcommref=mostpopular

 

[Orange Jennyslipper]

It would be interesting to know how each of us studied at school. It's the old visual-auditory vs. written-word learning.

I have read all the available GoT books, but I am left in the dust by several of you who (seemingly) can recall every word GRRM ever wrote.

I have a pretty good grip on HBO's version of GoT because I have seen and heard it. I have no trouble keeping up with characters on TD because I see and hear them.

I thought it was agreed the first four episodes were "too slow," but now the complaint is that it's too fast for the audience to keep up?

And it's Pizzolatto's "fault" that there are "wordy" websites explaining the plot? Guess you haven't noticed any of the hundreds of GoT websites?

Complaining about the door Woodrugh exited is pretty weak, imo, because we don't know how many people were in the tunnel with Burris et al. Maybe he had people at every exit for a mile in both directions. We don't know. Doesn't matter. Woody was killed by the conspirators at the Vinci PD.

My bad for calling Frank a "bad guy." He's obviously not nearly as bad as some of the cops. I thought everyone would catch what I was saying. I am absolutely pulling for Frank to get out if this. I think it will require a coalition of him, Ray and Ani.

Remember when Frank told Ray, "you may be the only friend I have left"? And Ray answered, "How f'd up would that be?" I want everybody to get out of this, but I don't know that I want a repeat of season 1's final 8 minutes.

 

[hollywood]

Here I think is the problem with people judging this season, they are comparing it to the first season (which I think we can all agree was so outstanding in so many ways that 99% of television pales by comparison).

The better gauge is to compare it to the pablum that is network television programming. By that standard, I would say that this second season is easily top 10%, if not top 5% of all available programming. It's not as good as season one, but that's a standard that few if any shows are ever going to equal or beat.

 

[FMPoke]

I think Caspere was an accountant that worked worked for the police department. Not a cop, but instrumental in the money laundering part of the operation.

My biggest problem with this season is that there are a bunch of key characters who are hardly seen (some not seen at all) and who seem to be key characters in the plot. The key characters talk about these people and discuss things they did in the past, and I am not always clear who they are referring to. IMO, this is a show that could have benefited from some flashbacks to clarify some of what happened in the past and who is involved. Ultimately, I am going to have to decide whether I want to watch it all again or just blow it off.

@FMPoke , My take on what is going on with Ani.... When she was a kid (probably early teens), someone kidnapped her from her father's commune and took her into the woods. She was gone for 4 days. Her father was searching for her. She has repressed most of the memories from that 4 day period, but was saying that she saw the face of the guy who kidnapped her and thinks maybe she always knew what he looked like. I am not sure how she escaped or if the guy was ever caught. But, that event was the main reason she is so screwed up and can't maintain a healthy relationship with a man. It is also the reason she feels the need to constantly train with knives so that she can protect herself in all situations.

Agree with all that my question center around the significance of the actual conversation with her father and his comment about his father. Bad parenting being one of the main themes. After watching a second time I believe I read too much into it and he was just explaining that he bent over backwards not to be like his own father not that his father was somehow involved I still think Ani's father knows who Ani thinks it is and was trying to steer her away from it for her own safety. My guess is it's the Mayor or someone similar and he's concerned what Ani may do. Could also have been Rick Springfield but I don't think her father would consider him dangerous.

The Casper having the diamonds is still a big hole in the plot to me unless Casper was suppose to be holding onto them for everyone and he double crossed them.

 

[Orange Jennyslipper]

I read the Slate piece that Mr Blonde linked. I agree with everything except early on she says Frank's deal with Osip fell through after the death of Caspere. Osip never antied-up his $5M.

That's why Frank freaked out in ep 1. Osip backed out of their deal before anyone knew Caspere was dead. Their $10M would have made them major-major players in the legit rail system. It would have bought a lot of "worthless" land in Cali.

Of course, now it's obvious that Osip surely knew Caspere was dead and had been assured by the Vinci bunch that they could make him a better deal than Frank could. He was soon buying claims against Frank's clubs because he knew Frank was about to be run out of town.

Btw, Frank's selling Osip a load of bs by grovelling before the Russian and saying he didn't mind "working his way back up from the bottom" was brilliant. Yeah, the gas leak is over there. BOOM!

Also, I'm not sure the other Vinci-ites knew Caspere had the diamonds until he hooked up with Tascha. They were gone from the safety deposit box before Burris knew to look for them.

 

[Been Jammin]

Here I think is the problem with people judging this season, they are comparing it to the first season (which I think we can all agree was so outstanding in so many ways that 99% of television pales by comparison).

The better gauge is to compare it to the pablum that is network television programming. By that standard, I would say that this second season is easily top 10%, if not top 5% of all available programming. It's not as good as season one, but that's a standard that few if any shows are ever going to equal or beat.

I do not agree.

First off, I don't think it is accurate to say that anyone who criticizes season 2 is only doing so because season 1 was so good (or, at least, started out so strong). I think viewers are able to separate the 2 since the stories, actors and characters are completely different.

Ask yourself this... If this were the first season, would the show be getting a lot of buzz and accolades like we saw with season 1? I doubt it. I suspect there would be a lot of curiosity due to the fact that big name actors are attached to the show, HBO is producing it, and it is something new. But, there would also be a lot of criticism regarding the convoluted story line, poor writing, and poor casting (V.V.).

IMO, the place where HBO went wrong this season was in doubling the number of key characters. Last season, we had WH and MM as the 2 stars. We had to be exposed to the back story of those 2 and only those 2. This season, they had to tell us the detailed back story of 4 characters (3 cops plus VV). We have to know how they fit into the story and what drives them, plus, we have to know all the details about the plot that they are trying to unravel. It is a lot of information.

I have a hard time saying this show is in the top 10% of what is on TV, as I am just ready for it to be over. For something to be in the top 10%, it has to be a series that I watch and really look forward to the next episode. A series where I dread the end of the season because I know there will be a long hiatus before the next episode.

 

[Been Jammin]

I have a pretty good grip on HBO's version of GoT because I have seen and heard it. I have no trouble keeping up with characters on TD because I see and hear them.

I thought it was agreed the first four episodes were "too slow," but now the complaint is that it's too fast for the audience to keep up?

And it's Pizzolatto's "fault" that there are "wordy" websites explaining the plot? Guess you haven't noticed any of the hundreds of GoT websites?

Complaining about the door Woodrugh exited is pretty weak, imo, because we don't know how many people were in the tunnel with Burris et al. Maybe he had people at every exit for a mile in both directions. We don't know. Doesn't matter. Woody was killed by the conspirators at the Vinci PD.

My bad for calling Frank a "bad guy." He's obviously not nearly as bad as some of the cops. I thought everyone would catch what I was saying. I am absolutely pulling for Frank to get out if this. I think it will require a coalition of him, Ray and Ani.

Remember when Frank told Ray, "you may be the only friend I have left"? And Ray answered, "How f'd up would that be?" I want everybody to get out of this, but I don't know that I want a repeat of season 1's final 8 minutes.

1). The issue I have is that there are a lot of key characters that we don't "see and hear", or at least we don't see/hear enough of them to make them stand out. For example, the Mayor's son is a very important character, who was on screen for maybe 2 minutes so far. Frank's henchman that was killed and had his eyes burned out (by Blake), was never seen/heard, but he was discussed a few times. The bald attorney general is tied into the plot, and has been in the background of some scenes, but hasn't had many lines. Tasha is a key figure. We have had discussion about her, but have not seen/heard her. Before the scene in the tunnel, the police chief was another character that we had not seen/heard enough from for him to standout. When he showed up, it took me about 5 minutes to remember where we had seen him before. Maybe that was just me, though.

2). I don't think the complaint is that it is now moving too fast. More that there is just so much information. I think this goes back to my previous post about needing to tell us the story of 4 main characters instead of 2.

3). As to wordy websites. You are comparing a 10 episode TV series to 5 huge novels. Not really apples to apples.

4). Woodrough's door: Your sentence about Woody being killed by conspirators is accurate, but you can't just gloss over what actually happened. It might have been more believable if a henchman was the one to kill him then he called Ray's boss on the phone and said "He's dead". Then, I could buy that they had someone outside each door for a mile. It was weak writing, no matter how you rationalize it.

 

[Orange Jennyslipper]

Pizzolatto envisioned TD from the beginning as a "character-driven" story. He said the plot would be secondary. Was he just giving himself wiggle room? Yes, maybe.

The characters you mentioned are, and I think are meant to be, stereotypical. They are not people we are ever going to care about.

Holloway is a corrupt police chief. Tony is a whiney little brat who thinks he's Tony Montana. That's all we ever need to know about them. Same with Burris and Dixon. Collectively, they're the bad guys. Stereotyped because that's all we need.

Stan was Frank's henchman who got killed by another of Frank's henchmen while looking out for Frank. We know he was important to Frank because he and Jordan visited his widow and gave her cash.

Do we need to care about Stan and his widow? No way. They are literary tools to give us insight into Frank and Jordan. Paul's mom got quite a bit of screen time and didn't move the plot one iota. She wasn't supposed to.

Season 1 was much the same way. There were many red herrings and players we thought might be "the murderer." Most of them weren't. It was really all about Coale and Marty.

Was the acting better? Yes, no argument. But I don't agree that VV is miscast. I was up on him, then down on him and now I think he was just right. Frank busted his butt to rise above being a low-life street punk. He aaaalmost made the step to legitimacy, but now that everything has crashed down around him, he is showing the ruthlessness and quick to the trigger attitude that got him to the point of having $5M in cash in the first place.

I give a big fist pump every time he offs somebody.

You're probably right about it not being top 10% on TV. We don't watch a lot. I started recording 'Humans' on your recommendation but after collecting three episodes, I erased them because i knew I'd never have time to watch them. Among shows we do watch, TD is top of the list. My wife was mad as hell about having to wait a week for the conclusion.

 

[FMPoke]

I think one of the main keys to understanding the format of True Detective is to realize it is not only character driven over plot driven but also the plot is seen totally revealed totally through the eyes of the main character. One reason we know so little about these significant character is that's all Ray and Ani see. Just like Matthew McConaughey missed the significance of the lawnmower man Ani and Ray missed the significance of Chasper assistant therefore they are only presented as passing characters. Pizzolatto does this to extreme and this is what gives the show it's feel. I can't remember a single scene this season that one of the three was not presence for other then some early shot of a dead Casper being driven around. Never any dialog that isn't viewed through a main character.

 

[Chillwell]

FM, that's a really smart take. I hadn't really looked at TD from that perspective.

 

[nathajw]

I'm 3 episodes behind and just watched the Lethal Weapon 7 shootout in the street. Please tell me it gets better.

P.S. Vince Vaughn is still garbage. Just terrible.

 

[Been Jammin]

I'm 3 episodes behind and just watched the Lethal Weapon 7 shootout in the street. Please tell me it gets better.

.

Marginally.

 

[Air_Thurman]

I know I'm in the minority because the general consensus is he has been awful but I haven't minded Vince Vaughn. His arc has probably been my favorite part of the show but I guess I'm little bit of a sucker for gangster wants out but can't escape the life stuff.

On some of this stuff it is hard to tell if it is the actor or some of the dialogue they have to do.

 

[Orange Jennyslipper]

Frank is now my favorite character. He didn't fit my preconceptions at first, so I thought the acting was bad. VV has made the guy unique in way I think some viewers don't appreciate, yet.

Whether things go right or wrong for Frank and Jordan in the finale, I think we'll see a memorable performance Sunday night.

 

[Chillwell]

Ya, I'm pulling for Frank big time; I want to see him take out everybody, except Velcoro and Bezzerides, in the finale.

I also don't think VV has been bad either.

 

[markgeo]

That was an overall depressing ending....

 

[hollywood]

The "good guys" don't always win you know. I don't know what people were expecting. The hill they had to fight was too steep for everyone to come out unscathed.

But, the info (copies) that had of the nefarious doings and dealings was almost certainly going to see the light of day. Following that a lot of what might have been accepted by the powers that be in LE would at least be thrown into question and with enough questions - you would assume some of the players would start to fall and get what's coming to them.