Small Dilemma

[TexasCowPoke]

I'm an old softy at times, which causes my hesitancy to rid my little ranch of a coyote pair that I believe have a den and little pups. I can see them (not the pups yet) with my binocs from my living room windows on the other side of the pond, so the den is probably 500 yds away or so. I've been watching them every evening come back to the den- he takes up watch and she enters it. A couple of weeks ago when I was bushhogging around the pond, they were not shy about hanging around in the open most the time and couldn't be run off for long and would make a big circle back around. I suspected then they had a den close by. If there were no harm, I'd keep em to watch for the entertainment- at least till fall. (I've killed about one or three a year for as long as I've lived out here.... this just feels different).

The downside - My wife lost all her chickens to coyotes and raccons (mostly the coons) last year and is about to restock. My renter and neighbors have cats (and a few feral ones around -which can be coyote food as far as I'm concerned), and I have a 20 lb Parsons Terrier (outdoor/indoor) who thinks he's superdog and Hank the 55lb cowdog at my place. Hank will keep em away from the house...... mostly, when he's not "too busy with other chores" like getting the Parsons' Terrier into trouble or practicing herding the neighbors cattle. (That's another story)

What would you do?

 

[Pokes15]

I feel ya. I love shooting coyotes, but if I could be entertained by watching a pair each evening that weren't harming anything then it'd be hard for me to pull the trigger. Once something went missing though, I'd be slinging lead. A farm hand of a family friend found a litter of coyote pups just a few days ago. I'm not sure what he did with them.

 

[dtspoke]

On many levels, I understand where you are coming from.

Practically, I'd kill them all immediately.

 

[TexasCowPoke]

People will sometimes have a "pet" buck that they won't let anyone shoot that comes up to the house or into camp and they've know him since a fawn.. Sometimes it is the "Home place" covey of quail that we don't want anyone to mess with. We think of them as both entertainment but also seed. That's kind of the way I was thinking about this pair for a bit- (sans being seed... we don't need any more seed in the coyote population);

As an update, a couple of days ago I drove over to look at the den and to see if I could hear some pups. Couldnt hear any. I didn't see mom or dad this time, and I laid down plenty of scent. This no doubt put a little pressure on them, and I think they vamoosed.

No shortage of coyotes around the house... each night I can hear no less that 5 different groups singing acapella - in different directions- often at the same time. Sometimes it's amazing to listen to this wild sound....

But now since they are no longer "my coyotes", I'll feel the urge to punch their ticket....next time I see em. Thanks for the feedback guys!

 

[dtspoke]

I feel that way about turkeys, elk, deer, etc I just don't give that level of consideration to predators. That's driven by ranch culture more than hunting for me.

 

[chasepollard]

I have several pet bucks every year! A few have them have pissed me off when they turned 5 and a few caught me at a bad day on the age of 4.

On the coyotes, let them be till the pups start coming out...then I'd invite a buddy over to shoot his new .308...I'm free at the end of May for a few days.

 

[TexasCowPoke]

After all the rain we've had this spring and in the last two or three weeks, things have been growing like there's no tomorrow and the pasture is ready for it's first baling. Once that's done, I might can see them again if they come around. Thanks Chase! We do need to find a place to predator hunt sometime. Your just up in Ardmore, Aren't you? That's just less than an hour from me.

 

[chasepollard]

Yes sir! My new place is just north of Ardmore and you are welcome anytime.

 

[Rulz]

Coyotes....grrrrr....I hate em.

Nasty things. I get the pup deal, but I have had to dispatch some that were just too close to the house. But I try to make it quick for them at least.

 

[osumark]

Nice read. Kill them from the swather now.

 

[TexasCowPoke]

Will do! It's time.

 

[tcpoke]

Coyotes....grrrrr....I hate em.

Nasty things. I get the pup deal, but I have had to dispatch some that were just too close to the house. But I try to make it quick for them at least.

Are you worried they are going to eat you?

I've shot a handful of coyotes helping an OSU rancher in W. Texas, and I get thinning them out on a deer property...but I don't get the mentality of shooting them if there isn't a mitigating circumstance. They are pretty incredible animals at the end of the day.

 

[chasepollard]

Tc, they predate species I would rather predate myself!

Also, once I get my place going how I want, I want as few predators as possible.

 

[tcpoke]

Tc, they predate species I would rather predate myself!

Also, once I get my place going how I want, I want as few predators as possible.

Right. And I mentioned that in my post about thinning them out on a deer property/lease.

 

[chasepollard]

Yeah, I meant more on th livestock and dog issue.

I'd rather not have them around.

 

[tcpoke]

Yeah, I meant more on th livestock and dog issue.

I'd rather not have them around.

Huh?

 

[TexasCowPoke]

Locally at least, our coyotes frequently have mange and the possibility of rabies, and other diseases that might infest my dog. Also I've seen more than once a dog chasing a single coyote into cover only to come hightailing it running for it's life with several more coyote's after it. I've intervened. I've shot several mangy coyotes wandering around near the house in the middle of the day and it's a bit weird when they do that.
With a smaller dog, chickens, etc. plus a recovering quail population, I'd rather only see them once in a blue moon. As it is, just from the howling at night, I wouldn't be surprised we had 10 or more per square mile right around me.

I'd like to say I've never been one to shoot a critter that I didn't have a purpose for, i.e. something I'll eat, is a threat in some way (copperheads, rattlesnakes), or other purpose....(way too many turtles in my ponds). but I've also made exceptions (crows, millions of starlings stinking the place up and won't leave, etc.) Balance for me is the key. As a rancher I do understand what DTS is saying in that fewer predators is usually less to worry about, especially when it comes to livestock.

On the other hand, it's always an ecosystem and nature abhors a vacuum, so what else is going to come eat all those mice and rats that I probably hate even more. (Not me). I kill about a dozen (usually big) snakes a year, but always wonder that when killing a snake that isn't poisonous whether a poisonous one will take it's place. That's another story though.

Thanks guys for the input!

 

[trapped_in_tx]

On many levels, I understand where you are coming from.

Practically, I'd kill them all immediately.

Yup.

 

[chasepollard]

Huh?

I meant to answer in the other reasons on why I kill them...not just deer.

Guineas, calves, chickens, dogs and cats around the place is a big reason why I like to kill them when I can. Plus, I have a guy that dumps his dead calves fairly close and I have a ton of coyote sightings.

 

[tcpoke]

I meant to answer in the other reasons on why I kill them...not just deer.

Guineas, calves, chickens, dogs and cats around the place is a big reason why I like to kill them when I can. Plus, I have a guy that dumps his dead calves fairly close and I have a ton of coyote sightings.

I didn't realize you raise livestock. I get it when you shoot them to protect/preserve a herd/flock. It's a livelihood. The dog and cat excuse I can't buy into though. If your pet may get eaten in the yard then it probably shouldn't be out there alone. Killing a species that was there long before and will be there long after because someone's little lap dog may get eaten seems like nothing more than excuse to kill something because you can.

 

[dtspoke]

I didn't realize you raise livestock. I get it when you shoot them to protect/preserve a herd/flock. It's a livelihood. The dog and cat excuse I can't buy into though. If your pet may get eaten in the yard then it probably shouldn't be out there alone. Killing a species that was there long before and will be there long after because someone's little lap dog may get eaten seems like nothing more than excuse to kill something because you can.

This is certainly reasonable, but the biggest issues with coyotes is the increase of population and expansion of range. They are one of the few species that actually thrives with urban sprawl and human movement into their traditional range.

One of the biggest challenges of wildlife management today is dealing with predators. Bears, lions, and coyotes have experienced unprecedented growth spurts and expansion, and other than brown bears, predators are in areas they never existed in before human settlement at unprecedented numbers. How to keep these populations in check without damaging the ecosystems they exist in is a significant hurdle, because human lifestyles and top tier predators don't mix well.

One thing about coyotes, their growth is a concern as they are hammering prey species at numbers never seen before. Another thing that biologists think happens with coyotes is that their welps grow as populations decrease. So basically, the thought is that if you hammer coyotes in your area for a while, lowering the numbers in that ecology, the females have larger welps compensating for the population vacuum. This isn't definitive, but it's a theory that explains the unprecedented growth as they are under more pressure than ever before. We know that wolves don't respond in this fashion and they can be hunted out of existence in a region. Coyotes are much more resilient.

 

[tcpoke]

This is certainly reasonable, but the biggest issues with coyotes is the increase of population and expansion of range. They are one of the few species that actually thrives with urban sprawl and human movement into their traditional range.

One of the biggest challenges of wildlife management today is dealing with predators. Bears, lions, and coyotes have experienced unprecedented growth spurts and expansion, and other than brown bears, predators are in areas they never existed in before human settlement at unprecedented numbers. How to keep these populations in check without damaging the ecosystems they exist in is a significant hurdle, because human lifestyles and top tier predators don't mix well.

One thing about coyotes, their growth is a concern as they are hammering prey species at numbers never seen before. Another thing that biologists think happens with coyotes is that their welps grow as populations decrease. So basically, the thought is that if you hammer coyotes in your area for a while, lowering the numbers in that ecology, the females have larger welps compensating for the population vacuum. This isn't definitive, but it's a theory that explains the unprecedented growth as they are under more pressure than ever before. We know that wolves don't respond in this fashion and they can be hunted out of existence in a region. Coyotes are much more resilient.

100% agree with/believe all of that. It's also why I consider them an amazing animal.

 

[dtspoke]

Everyone says roaches will be the last species standing. Unlikely since the coyotes will eat them all.

 

[tcpoke]

Everyone says roaches will be the last species standing. Unlikely since the coyotes will eat them all.

Ha!

 

[trapped_in_tx]

I didn't realize you raise livestock. I get it when you shoot them to protect/preserve a herd/flock. It's a livelihood. The dog and cat excuse I can't buy into though. If your pet may get eaten in the yard then it probably shouldn't be out there alone. Killing a species that was there long before and will be there long after because someone's little lap dog may get eaten seems like nothing more than excuse to kill something because you can.

Cats keep the mouse and rat population under control on a farm. Our dogs never set foot in our house and helped a little bit with some of the rodent population but more importantly served as an excellent predator alarm system.

If I was still farming, even if I didn't have livestock, I would eliminate every coyote that crossed my path and perhaps several more that didn't.

They aren't just a nuisance, they are a creature that is thriving at least partially as a result of human influence. I also question how healthy the populations are - when I was a kid in Iowa you never saw them in the daylight and almost always assumed they might be rabid if you did. Here in Colorado I would expect to see them a bit more but I have spied them several times in just the last couple years. That's no proof of anything but it makes me suspicious.

I'm not suggesting that they should be exterminated but I am not going to argue with someone suggesting aggressive control.

 

[chasepollard]

I didn't realize you raise livestock. I get it when you shoot them to protect/preserve a herd/flock. It's a livelihood. The dog and cat excuse I can't buy into though. If your pet may get eaten in the yard then it probably shouldn't be out there alone. Killing a species that was there long before and will be there long after because someone's little lap dog may get eaten seems like nothing more than excuse to kill something because you can.

I don't have much livestock yet, but I am in the process of it. My family just couldn't/can't stay away from cattle and horses.

You also didn't realize that I am vehemently against lap dogs! I would prefer to coyote hunt with one tied up.

I did however have a black mouth pup get mangled by coyotes. A practice that I've found useful is to let a working dog have freedom to allow them to embrace their games nature. Now I worry about it some. Don't buy if you don't want to...

Cats, eh...I feel similar about them as I do yotes. The do keep varmints out of feed at a decent rate though.

 

[chasepollard]

*gamey

 

[TexasCowPoke]

I always said I would never ever under any circumstances have a lap dog. But now I'm old and my 55 lb blue healer cross thinks he's a lap dog. So did my late great Pyraneese.

 

[panhndlpoke]

I'm a predator. Coyotes are predators. I'm a bigger more powerful predator than a coyote and will kill all of them that conveniently offer themselves for easy destruction. I haven't gone hunting coyotes much in the past 10 or 15 years but will on occasion. I've still killed a half dozen from my jeep or porch when they got too close and comfortable.

Simply put they're competition for the game animals in my area.

 

[Rulz]

The coyotes in question were trying to kill my moms cat.

I don't just shoot anything for no reason at all, I have to be provoked.

$200 vet bill is more expensive than a 44 cent round of ammo. Provoked.

 

[shortbus]

On many levels, I understand where you are coming from.

Practically, I'd kill them all immediately.

What he said.