New wrestlers on radar

[oberebo]

I’m unemployed for a bit. I’ll also take less than Smith. Just saying.

Brevin Balcemeda the #2 ranked 152 pounder in the country shared his recruiting list of six with Flo and he lists OK State,Iowa St, Iowa, NC St, Rutgers, Va Tech and Ohio State but says he likes the black of Iowa or the orange of Ok State due to their programs. He was the super 32 champ this year and his father is the head coach of South Dade Florida where he wrestled. This would be a very good pick up in a weight we will need in the future.

 

[proud2bpokes]

That is an impressive list of schools!

 

[vhsalum]

We should change this forum to "34 and done". At this rate, we're not competing for national titles anytime soon. On the bright side, we still have golf that will win national titles.

The decision to let Guerrero go looms larger and larger. OU is putting together a great RTC. That is going to attract better recruits. Sure hope Fix 1 and 2 are worth it.

 

[osu2082]

The decision to let Guerrero go looms larger and larger. OU is putting together a great RTC. That is going to attract better recruits. Sure hope Fix 1 and 2 are worth it.

It was time for Eric and OSU to part ways IMO and both are better for it. Eric needed a change of scenery and we needed new blood.

OU is putting together a good RTC because they have the support and money in place.

 

[oberebo]

It was time for Eric and OSU to part ways IMO and both are better for it. Eric needed a change of scenery and we needed new blood.

OU is putting together a good RTC because they have the support and money in place.

I agree with osu2082 above. Nothing against Eric but it was time for a change. Fix 1 and 2 are great choices and are not the problem. The problem is financial as has been pointed out time and again. This means large donations from wrestling backers and they need to be solicited both by our Athletic director and the Athletic department and from Coach John Smith. Unfortunately I am not in a financial position to be one of these big donors but I have been told they are there and just need to be asked. I am in a position as are most of us to donate some money in a grass roots effort to raise finances. Holder has made some comments about this and hopefully the above are working to implement these fund raising efforts ASAP.

 

[lawpoke87]

John and Holder need to get together sooner rather than later. We are being left behind and the results on the mat will get worse as other programs move further ahead of us on the RTC front.

 

[Wrassler17]

Well I'm glad to hear that some big time donors are out there and willing to help. Hopefully Mike Holder and coach Smith can use the recent developments to galvanize fundraising efforts.

 

[CowboyUp61]

Maybe if the grassroots campaign gets started, the big donors and athletic director would take note and speed things up?

 

[oberebo]

Maybe if the grassroots campaign gets started, the big donors and athletic director would take note and speed things up?

Exactly my thought CowboyUp61. I am going to inject something else in this conversation and caveat it by saying these are things I have heard from some sources not necessarily to be taken as Gospel truth but food for thought. A source that has been close to the program in the past has indicated that John knows and is friends with several of these heavy-hitters but has been reluctant to ask for financial help for several reasons but one that stood out to me, is that John might be of the opinion that several of the actions taken by these other successful RTC's , might just be illegal and he is hesitant to copy their tactics for fear it will blow up in their and his faces. As I say this is information gathered from a couple of sources and not to be taken as absolute truth. I would hope that someone close to the program would suddenly emerge to start a grass roots campaign to raise money. This may be the cart before the horse but I do not see how it would hurt and maybe get the ball rolling. My fervent hope is that John, Mike and the other "big powers" are already seeking ways to get this financial backing.

 

[Wrassler17]

Exactly my thought CowboyUp61. I am going to inject something else in this conversation and caveat it by saying these are things I have heard from some sources not necessarily to be taken as Gospel truth but food for thought. A source that has been close to the program in the past has indicated that John knows and is friends with several of these heavy-hitters but has been reluctant to ask for financial help for several reasons but one that stood out to me, is that John might be of the opinion that several of the actions taken by these other successful RTC's , might just be illegal and he is hesitant to copy their tactics for fear it will blow up in their and his faces. As I say this is information gathered from a couple of sources and not to be taken as absolute truth. I would hope that someone close to the program would suddenly emerge to start a grass roots campaign to raise money. This may be the cart before the horse but I do not see how it would hurt and maybe get the ball rolling. My fervent hope is that John, Mike and the other "big powers" are already seeking ways to get this financial backing.

Welp, I think some folks around the country just got a little uneasy. Either you are correct about John's thinking or we are close to starting our own fund raising initiative. Either way, other programs should take notice. Go Pokes!

 

[Air_Thurman]

John's not wrong in his line of thinking. We absolutely have to invest in our RTC if we want any chance of competing at the level we all think we should. At the same time, I have zero doubt if the the NCAA ever seriously looked into RTCs crap would hit the fan for college wrestling.

 

[Wrassler17]

John's not wrong in his line of thinking. We absolutely have to invest in our RTC if we want any chance of competing at the level we all think we should. At the same time, I have zero doubt if the the NCAA ever seriously looked into RTCs crap would hit the fan for college wrestling.

I guess the question is what's the solution? It kind of feels like a well intentioned idea became a loophole. Then a lot schools exploited it and a few abused it.

So is there a compromise that will still help USA wrestling, college wrestling, and youth wrestling? What if USA Wrestling initially limited the number of senior level athletes under contract with each RTC, say a max of 8 (per style)? Would that act similar to a scholarship limit and prevent some schools from hoarding all the senior and college level talent? Would it 'incentivize' other schools to grow their RTCs and improve their college programs?

Thoughts / Other ideas?

 

[Air_Thurman]

I guess the question is what's the solution? It kind of feels like a well intentioned idea became a loophole. Then a lot schools exploited it and a few abused it.

So is there a compromise that will still help USA wrestling, college wrestling, and youth wrestling? What if USA Wrestling initially limited the number of senior level athletes under contract with each RTC, say a max of 8 (per style)? Would that act similar to a scholarship limit and prevent some schools from hoarding all the senior and college level talent? Would it 'incentivize' other schools to grow their RTCs and improve their college programs?

Thoughts / Other ideas?

I think these are actually solid ideas. I think the problem is the RTCs are actually great for USA Wrestling so there isn't a ton of incentive for USA Wrestling to help fix the problem.

 

[Wrassler17]

I think these are actually solid ideas. I think the problem is the RTCs are actually great for USA Wrestling so there isn't a ton of incentive for USA Wrestling to help fix the problem.

Yeah, I agree. I think it's unlikely that USA Wrestling would make any changes on their own. But what if they heard the NCAA was considering an investigation? And that the NCAA might separate the RTCs from the college teams, meaning no joint practices (hard to enforce I know). Boosters would likely stop donating if they thought the RTCs could no longer help the college guys win individual and team titles.

There are a lot of smart people in wrestling. Many of them got together to help fix the Olympics debacle. Who knows, maybe the consensus is to leave things as they are for now and see what happens, knowing they can make changes later if necessary. And if that's the thinking, I hope Boone Pickens becomes a big wrestling fan in the meantime.

 

[oberebo]

Yeah, I agree. I think it's unlikely that USA Wrestling would make any changes on their own. But what if they heard the NCAA was considering an investigation? And that the NCAA might separate the RTCs from the college teams, meaning no joint practices (hard to enforce I know). Boosters would likely stop donating if they thought the RTCs could no longer help the college guys win individual and team titles.

There are a lot of smart people in wrestling. Many of them got together to help fix the Olympics debacle. Who knows, maybe the consensus is to leave things as they are for now and see what happens, knowing they can make changes later if necessary. And if that's the thinking, I hope Boone Pickens becomes a big wrestling fan in the meantime.

Got to say I have never seen Boone at a wrestling match but there are others of that ilk I have seen. I do not know if Penn State and Ohio State and others are breaking NCAA rules or not. However, it just seems to me on the face of it when you promise a high recruit a job and salary up to $100,000 when he graduates that is tantamount to being an illegal inducement. I am surprised that thus far the NCAA has turned a blind eye to this situation particularly in light of what they did to us for what seems paltry in comparison. I would also say that high school wrestlers today were not even born when John Smith was amassing world and Olympic titles much less when previous generations of Cowboy greats were doing the same. When Holder comes up with the finances for a new wrestling center and attracts some big donors to fund our RTC is when we will regain our status as one of the "powers" in wrestling.

 

[MVPFAN]

I'm very suspicious of what PSU and to a lesser degree tosu have been able to do. It does not add up and those are two of the most wealthy booster schools around. Between using camps to pay extra and promising club money it is too easy to get an advantage. A guy who lives in PA posted that his local club brought in some PSU guys at a pretty high pay rate and that the money the club used to pay was donated by an anonymous source. Maybe he was making it up but seems easy to do. Iowa has gotten a grass roots campaign going to try and keep up but still have to be very selective and are about where you are with how many high end guys they can bring in. The number of top of the heap blue chips PSU somehow is able to land with 9.9 is nuts. I don't post here much but respect Coach Smith and the program even if I am not cheering for them.

 

[osudog]

Those programs have the money to pull this off. We do not.

 

[IAChief32]

It seemed we were in the same rut last year in April when news of Metcalf getting hired at ISU was announced. After bitching and moaning, a guy on our forum (Pinters) posted proof of a $25 donation to the HWC and told us "Match me." In the first 30 days, we had close to $25,000 and I think we ended up at $150,000+ thanks to donations and movement that started on a message board. It allowed Tom and the staff to bring Mark back to IC and started talk among our bigger donors of a new, state of the art, stand alone facility. It also started the HWC Inner Circle where donors do recurring donations at different levels...all online. The fans do their part, the club does its. The club sends gear out to Inner Circle members often with handwritten notes by HWC wrestlers. It also helps that there is a core group of fans that put in the work guided by Tom and HWC Prez Randy Novak.

For all the crap HR gets (biggest target, some of it deserved), it was a true grassroots campaign and should have made news in the wrestling world because the genesis of it was so unique. We still get framed as knuckledragging fans that bitch and moan about everything...but at least they can't say we didn't do anything about it Here is an excerpt from IAWrestle:

“The Hawkeye Report (HR) continues to amaze me,” said Randy Novak, president of the Hawkeye Wrestling Club, “That message forum defines grassroots support. I find myself reading that forum a couple times a day. Since April I have met some very special people from that forum that are working hard to help the HWC – in addition I call them good friends. As crazy as the comments seem at times – most of the people I have met and interacted with are genuine. They want success for the collegiate team and the HWC athletes, and are willing to donate time and money to improve the odds so to speak. Most of what the HWC has done since April has come from their ideas. Yes, we have to execute them, but HR is what got this (movement) started really. I don’t mind even reading the negative comments. We are not going to make everyone happy, but people care and that’s important.”

I was going to leave a receipt with a donation of $25 and say "match me" to the Cowboy RTC but I couldn't find a place where I could donate online. With guys like Daton Fix ready to make some hay along with the other talent, it might be time for somebody to take the reigns and kick it in the ass. Just my perspective as a Hawk fan who saw it happen with us. Good luck.

 

[lookleft goright]

I guess the question is what's the solution? It kind of feels like a well intentioned idea became a loophole. Then a lot schools exploited it and a few abused it.

So is there a compromise that will still help USA wrestling, college wrestling, and youth wrestling? What if USA Wrestling initially limited the number of senior level athletes under contract with each RTC, say a max of 8 (per style)? Would that act similar to a scholarship limit and prevent some schools from hoarding all the senior and college level talent? Would it 'incentivize' other schools to grow their RTCs and improve their college programs?

Thoughts / Other ideas?

There are always going to be schools and people and clubs with more money than someone else. Some will have more talent etc.. The clubs with more will perform better and have better results.

I do to think you want any outside group dictating what a club or team should do. If the NCAA wants to say that RTCs and teams can't practice together then that is on them. I certainly don't want theNCAA to dictate anything an RTC might do.

Promising a kid 100K after college may be illegal, but if it comes with the statement that this is what we are paying our resident athletes and if you become one, you can expect to make that amount, then it is fair. No-one says they will make the team, so it is a risk the kid has to take.

I love that our athletes have a way to make money and train after college. Not all the guys are top flight nor will they ever make a world team, but they have the opportunity to chase a dream. These guys are doing camps and staying in the sport and helping it to grow at the kids level. It seems to be a part of growing the sport. I say let it alone for a while and see where it goes with the freedom a capitalistic society.

 

[oberebo]

There are always going to be schools and people and clubs with more money than someone else. Some will have more talent etc.. The clubs with more will perform better and have better results.

I do to think you want any outside group dictating what a club or team should do. If the NCAA wants to say that RTCs and teams can't practice together then that is on them. I certainly don't want theNCAA to dictate anything an RTC might do.

Promising a kid 100K after college may be illegal, but if it comes with the statement that this is what we are paying our resident athletes and if you become one, you can expect to make that amount, then it is fair. No-one says they will make the team, so it is a risk the kid has to take.

I love that our athletes have a way to make money and train after college. Not all the guys are top flight nor will they ever make a world team, but they have the opportunity to chase a dream. These guys are doing camps and staying in the sport and helping it to grow at the kids level. It seems to be a part of growing the sport. I say let it alone for a while and see where it goes with the freedom a capitalistic society.

 

[oberebo]

If that happens it will be the death knell of collegiate wrestling in my opinion and I will no longer be interested or support OK State wrestling which I have been following closely since 1960. I may be naive but I want my sport to be pure and at least give the pretense of amateurism. Yes, these wrestlers are given scholarships to wrestle but if I believed that the purpose of college wrestling is to make money for or off of these athletes it would be anathema to me. The student athlete should be in college first and foremost to learn and get a degree. I would hate for it to be turned more and more into a business where the "capitalist ideal" is to make money. I do not watch pro sports with the exception of an occasional baseball game. At least there I only have to watch every once in a while while reading as it moves so slow. Football and basketball at the pro level to me is ultra boring. Sorry, the capitalist society is the uiltimate turnoff for me and I would not watch or support it.

 

[osudog]

Is OSU doesn’t get on board with the new age way of recruiting we will never compete with PSU again they are simply unstoppable at this rate

 

[Wrassler17]

There are always going to be schools and people and clubs with more money than someone else. Some will have more talent etc.. The clubs with more will perform better and have better results.

I do to think you want any outside group dictating what a club or team should do. If the NCAA wants to say that RTCs and teams can't practice together then that is on them. I certainly don't want theNCAA to dictate anything an RTC might do.

Promising a kid 100K after college may be illegal, but if it comes with the statement that this is what we are paying our resident athletes and if you become one, you can expect to make that amount, then it is fair. No-one says they will make the team, so it is a risk the kid has to take.

I love that our athletes have a way to make money and train after college. Not all the guys are top flight nor will they ever make a world team, but they have the opportunity to chase a dream. These guys are doing camps and staying in the sport and helping it to grow at the kids level. It seems to be a part of growing the sport. I say let it alone for a while and see where it goes with the freedom a capitalistic society.

Well I agree that your view seems to be the one held by most - basically that things are going good so don't mess with it. But I think there are a couple of issues. The first is that if the NCAA did actually step in and disallow joint practices, that would effectively kill the golden goose. And the second is that while a lot of good is happening at the international level and at the wealthier D1 schools, wrestling is bigger than that. We don't know yet how the smaller D1 schools will be affected over the long term. If we should end up losing many more, I can't see how that would be good for HS wrestling or youth wrestling. And my suggestion regarding USA Wrestling was just one idea intended to address both of those issues by making a good thing even better.

That said, I do have to disagree with you on a couple of items. The first is that while capitalism is great, it's not a great model for sports. I'm a huge Yankees fan, so I know what it's like to root for the team with the most money. But there's a reason why the major sports have a luxury tax or salary cap. And there's a reason why the NCAA has scholarship limits. Unlike the business world, in sports you need an opponent across the field (or mat). No one wants to see wrestling turn into the Harlem Globetrotters.

The second item is about telling recruits there is no guarantee they will be "hired" by the RTC after graduation. Seems a little naive, no? I mean Daniel Kerkvliet basically decommitted from us because of that exact reason. It's not hard to see which schools have RTC $ to spare. Here are few things that are hard not to notice. Penn State has Olympic champ Jake Varner on staff - as their "volunteer" coach. In a normal world he would be leading his own college program, right? Iowa has post grad Alex Meyer as a senior athlete - for Greco. I mean good for him, but did he really show enough Greco skills in college to get "hired"? Ohio State signed Bo Jordan as an RTC coach - but he's only wrestled in 2 freestyle tournaments in his entire career. And again, good for him, but do you really think he'll be showing a lot of par terre technique? Aaron Brooks's dad summed it up when he posted on the Iowa board, today's recruits know where the RTC $ is.

 

[osudog]

Well I agree that your view seems to be the one held by most - basically that things are going good so don't mess with it. But I think there are a couple of issues. The first is that if the NCAA did actually step in and disallow joint practices, that would effectively kill the golden goose. And the second is that while a lot of good is happening at the international level and at the wealthier D1 schools, wrestling is bigger than that. We don't know yet how the smaller D1 schools will be affected over the long term. If we should end up losing many more, I can't see how that would be good for HS wrestling or youth wrestling. And my suggestion regarding USA Wrestling was just one idea intended to address both of those issues by making a good thing even better.

That said, I do have to disagree with you on a couple of items. The first is that while capitalism is great, it's not a great model for sports. I'm a huge Yankees fan, so I know what it's like to root for the team with the most money. But there's a reason why the major sports have a luxury tax or salary cap. And there's a reason why the NCAA has scholarship limits. Unlike the business world, in sports you need an opponent across the field (or mat). No one wants to see wrestling turn into the Harlem Globetrotters.

The second item is about telling recruits there is no guarantee they will be "hired" by the RTC after graduation. Seems a little naive, no? I mean Daniel Kerkvliet basically decommitted from us because of that exact reason. It's not hard to see which schools have RTC $ to spare. Here are few things that are hard not to notice. Penn State has Olympic champ Jake Varner on staff - as their "volunteer" coach. In a normal world he would be leading his own college program, right? Iowa has post grad Alex Meyer as a senior athlete - for Greco. I mean good for him, but did he really show enough Greco skills in college to get "hired"? Ohio State signed Bo Jordan as an RTC coach - but he's only wrestled in 2 freestyle tournaments in his entire career. And again, good for him, but do you really think he'll be showing a lot of par terre technique? Aaron Brooks's dad summed it up when he posted on the Iowa board, today's recruits know where the RTC $ is.

Damn good Post about the RTC coaches.