Am I the only one who thinks the lineup should be left as it is?

[TheJimReaper]

Yeah it'll suck to leave Geer out of the lineup but this way we won't be leaving an all American out. Jacobe also said that he has more energy at 184 due to not having to cut as much weight.

Plus Geer has two more years after this year. JoJo only has one and Rogers and Jacobe are on their last year.

 

[OSUMatFan]

I feel that both Jacobe and Geer were much better down at lower weights. Emotionally I agree with you, but John wants to get the most points out of this team at Nationals.

Not sure how the conversation is going in the Smith household as I doubt Jo Jo and Mom want him pulling to 165. This will suck for someone regardless.

 

[Dugan2017]

I don’t have any insider information but I’m guessing Weigel can beat Geer and Geer beats Jacobe . It’s his only choice really.

 

[Kingk0ng]

Chandler to 57?
lol

 

[Air_Thurman]

Nope, I'm with you. I like it the way it is. I say that completely as a fanboy who has a hard time stomaching that one of Jacobe, Joe or Chandler will be sitting home March. Obviously, Coach Smith has to do what he thinks is best for the team.

 

[ionel]

I've said before, to beat Penn St we have to win 4 weight classes and have 5 other AA, cause PSU will win 4 and a bunch of bonus points. Now if can knock one of their top 4 out of championship then a better possibility. But Joe is the only one who can do that against Hall. I think Cenzo is a tougher match up for him, but perhaps he has a better chance making finals. Thing is we really don't know, Geer probably fine at 184 but can Jacobe & Joe wrestle at a high level (like Joe in McFadden match) down a weight class? I'm not convinced score any more points or have any better chance beating PSU.

 

[lawpoke87]

Absent the flu taking out half of Penn State's team at nationals, we aren't beating them. Finishing in the top 3 would be a great accomplishment for this squad. Finishing second to fifth is realistic imo.

 

[tfpoke]

Smith commented in his last video that the staff watched video and concluded that Geer and Jacobe were getting out-horsed at their new weights. I agree with this. I think Weigel is our best 197, Geer is better at 184, and Jacobe is better at 174. Not sure where JoJo fits in the mix. These other guys showed up in shape and at their weights.

 

[Rdcldad]

These other guys showed up in shape and at their weights.

fair point

 

[Air_Thurman]

Absent the flu taking out half of Penn State's team at nationals, we aren't beating them. Finishing in the top 3 would be a great accomplishment for this squad. Finishing second to fifth is realistic imo.

Yeah, no one is touching PSU this year. A top 3 finish and good runs by the underclassmen is what I want I'm looking for.

 

[osu2082]

Smith commented in his last video that the staff watched video and concluded that Geer and Jacobe were getting out-horsed at their new weights. I agree with this. I think Weigel is our best 197, Geer is better at 184, and Jacobe is better at 174. Not sure where JoJo fits in the mix. These other guys showed up in shape and at their weights.

Very true. Joe will have a chance to wrestle for either 165 or 174. If he wins he will win the spot regardless of when he showed up. It's one of the great things about wrestling.

 

[Wrassler17]

First off, I don't think the coaching staff did a great job of planning out the lineup beginning last March. Everyone knew the challenge was how to fit Daton, G, & Joe in. Zack even joked with Trackwrestling last week that the team was able to keep things so secret because they didn't know themselves.

But now that we are here, I like this approach. "You get what you earn", or maybe better "you eat what you kill". That's one of the things that makes wrestling so great. It doesn't matter if someone is a senior, freshman, or the coach's son. Outperform the other guy and you get the spot.

 

[osu2082]

First off, I don't think the coaching staff did a great job of planning out the lineup beginning last March. Everyone knew the challenge was how to fit Daton, G, & Joe in. Zack even joked with Trackwrestling last week that the team was able to keep things so secret because they didn't know themselves.

But now that we are here, I like this approach. "You get what you earn", or maybe better "you eat what you kill". That's one of the things that makes wrestling so great. It doesn't matter if someone is a senior, freshman, or the coach's son. Outperform the other guy and you get the spot.

I think they had an initial plan but didn't plan of Preston being injured. That along with the uncertainty of Joes return made planning awful hard in August.

 

[OkieSpladle]

I think they had an initial plan but didn't plan of Preston being injured. That along with the uncertainty of Joes return made planning awful hard in August.

I agree. If Boo stays healthy, G and Kaid battle for 141. If Chandler stays healthy, Shomers stays down at 157 and probably holds the spot all year. If Preston stays healthy, Jacobe and Geer are slotted in and Joe is the X factor. That sounds like a reasonable plan to me.

Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. No plan survives first contact.

 

[Wrassler17]

I agree. If Boo stays healthy, G and Kaid battle for 141. If Chandler stays healthy, Shomers stays down at 157 and probably holds the spot all year. If Preston stays healthy, Jacobe and Geer are slotted in and Joe is the X factor. That sounds like a reasonable plan to me.

Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. No plan survives first contact.

That sounds like a reasonable plan to you? Let me poke some holes in it then.

The 3 key guys coming off redshirt that needed to be accounted for were Daton, G, and Joe. So how did that go?...

For Daton there were still rumblings going into December that he might drop to 125. Picc was interviewed after the Princeton dual and he was asked if he was aware of that possibility. Picc answered that he knew there were conversations taking place (he didn't say he was part of them), but he would do whatever the team needed (go 133) because he loved being a Cowboy.

For G, they were apparently going to let him or Kaid sit. But how about having G (or Boo) "bulk job" to 157 starting back in April. Instead they brought in Shomers (a marginal upgrade over Jonce). Plus Shomers has been struggling to make 157 since last year (he said it last March). This year John said Shomers was ready to quit wrestling unless he could move up to 165.

For Joe, it's unclear what the plan was (if any). In April, did they think he was going 165, 174, or 184? How about telling Chandler or Jacobe back in April to start bulking up for 184, with the idea that Joe would go 165. And then have someone keep an eye on him to make sure he didn't balloon up over 200 lbs.

 

[Cypresspoke]

We should make wrassler17 the new head coach, he is obviously smarter than our staff...

 

[Wrassler17]

We should make wrassler17 the new head coach, he is obviously smarter than our staff...

I certainly wouldn't turn down the paycheck.

Have a ton of respect for coach Smith. And I know he coughs more wrestling knowledge than anyone could dream of having. That said, I've got no issues giving my opinion. That's why they have forums.

 

[Rdcldad]

I certainly wouldn't turn down the paycheck.

Have a ton of respect for coach Smith. And I know he coughs more wrestling knowledge than anyone could dream of having. That said, I've got no issues giving my opinion. That's why they have forums.

solid

 

[BigD_cowboy]

Very true. Joe will have a chance to wrestle for either 165 or 174. If he wins he will win the spot regardless of when he showed up. It's one of the great things about wrestling.

My option is that jo is an immediate top 4 placer at 165, will little doubt. I'm as big of a chandler fan as there is (love his style) but he has proven he can't beat a top 8 kid at the weight. We know jacobe has a good shot at AA at 174. To me, there is little doubt how this turns out. Would love to see jo and marinelli (sp) go at it in 2 weeks.

 

[Air_Thurman]

That sounds like a reasonable plan to you? Let me poke some holes in it then.

The 3 key guys coming off redshirt that needed to be accounted for were Daton, G, and Joe. So how did that go?...

For Daton there were still rumblings going into December that he might drop to 125. Picc was interviewed after the Princeton dual and he was asked if he was aware of that possibility. Picc answered that he knew there were conversations taking place (he didn't say he was part of them), but he would do whatever the team needed (go 133) because he loved being a Cowboy.

For G, they were apparently going to let him or Kaid sit. But how about having G (or Boo) "bulk job" to 157 starting back in April. Instead they brought in Shomers (a marginal upgrade over Jonce). Plus Shomers has been struggling to make 157 since last year (he said it last March). This year John said Shomers was ready to quit wrestling unless he could move up to 165.

For Joe, it's unclear what the plan was (if any). In April, did they think he was going 165, 174, or 184? How about telling Chandler or Jacobe back in April to start bulking up for 184, with the idea that Joe would go 165. And then have someone keep an eye on him to make sure he didn't balloon up over 200 lbs.

I'm not saying you are wrong. You might be 100% correct. I will say, when it comes to weight guys should be at fans don't generally have a clue. It is super easy to say this guy should be at this weight, why isn't this guy here (I do it). That being said no one except the wrestlers and coaching staff really knows these guys bodies and how effectively these guys can carry or lose additional weight.

I'm not saying thing were handled 100% correctly. That being said I have a hard time believing someone like John Smith went into this year with no real plan to how this would all go.

 

[OSUMatFan]

I think we all agree it is too bad that an AA will likely have to sit out the Big 12 and NCAA's. Too bad teams cannot take twelve wrestlers at ten weights and see how the scoring works out. My assumption is that Geer is solid at 184.

 

[tfpoke]

My option is that jo is an immediate top 4 placer at 165, will little doubt. I'm as big of a chandler fan as there is (love his style) but he has proven he can't beat a top 8 kid at the weight. We know jacobe has a good shot at AA at 174. To me, there is little doubt how this turns out. Would love to see jo and marinelli (sp) go at it in 2 weeks.

I'm not as sold as you on how well Joe will/would do at 165 or 174. He lost to two guys not in the top 4, just over a week ago. I'm not convinced he will have any kind of gas tank at 165, if he even makes it. He looked good at the Scuffle, but not so hot lately.

 

[osu2082]

I'm not as sold as you on how well Joe will/would do at 165 or 174. He lost to two guys not in the top 4, just over a week ago. I'm not convinced he will have any kind of gas tank at 165, if he even makes it. He looked good at the Scuffle, but not so hot lately.

There is some truth as far as potential issues of the cut down to 65 which is what you saw a week or so ago in two losses. He has been cutting and pushing his weight down and it showed in those two losses (still was right there with 2 top 10 guys despite).

They will know what weight Joe will have the most impact at and go from there. I think he beats both Chandler or Jacobe which stinks for one of them but we knew one of the three would miss out going into the year so this isn't a new frustration.

 

[oberebo]

There is some truth as far as potential issues of the cut down to 65 which is what you saw a week or so ago in two losses. He has been cutting and pushing his weight down and it showed in those two losses (still was right there with 2 top 10 guys despite).

They will know what weight Joe will have the most impact at and go from there. I think he beats both Chandler or Jacobe which stinks for one of them but we knew one of the three would miss out going into the year so this isn't a new frustration.

I agree with Wrassler 17 that giving one's opinion is why there are wrestling boards.
1. The injury to Weigel is the primary reason for all of the shuffling. If the staff had known Weigel could come back from injury then Geer would have stayed at 184. Apparently the injury or INJURIES to Weigel were serious enough that they could not know if we would have him in the lineup at all.
2. Joe Smith was the second but maybe more important reason for the shuffling. I have no inside information on this but everyone believes, has heard or plain knows that Joe did not properly prepare for this season. Most everyone also knows or believes that of the three Joe is the most technically skilled of the three. I think and some agree that on technical skill alone Jacobe would be last in the scale of technicians but a lot of that is made up by his strength. Chandler is the risk taker and the most likely to score bonus points and he is fun to watch(his match Friday was painful to watch as his timing was off and he was not mat ready).
3. I want what is best for the team and how we place at nationals but even with the orangest glasses I have I do not see us approaching Penn State. This does not mean that we can not place second so I want the best lineup.
4. All that being said, I believe if all stay healthy we should have Jacobe at174 and if Joe shows the maturity to get to 165 and be mat ready he should be the starter at 165. Has Chandler lost a step since his marriage-I do not know that and really that can only be answered by Chandler. He may have other priorities now and that is his right. I do not fault him if this is the case. I certainly do not fault Jacobe as he is wrestling to the best of his ability. This leaves Joe to fault and I am not comfortable in doing that not being in on the inside but for whatever reason he did not come into this season ready to wrestle. I like Dakota's chances to AA at 184 and if Weigel can continue on his path to health I definitely like his chances to AA at 197. Therefore, I do agree with John's plan but I am a fan and not knowledgeable enough or have enough background information to set my opinions in stone. I do believe that this situation will be resolved by Chandler and Joe ranking at 165. The rest is most likely decided.
LETS GO POKES!!!

 

[ionel]

Its going to be interesting to see the weigh in weight for Joe at the Mizzo dual. Someone else reported he should be able to (by rule) make 165 by the Iowa dual, so will he weight in on Saturday at a weight that still allows that. I think there very lose chance that Chandler can beat Marinelli, not a great style match up for him. But either Joe or Chandler should be good against Bowman and Chandler probably has a better chance for a pin than Joe. If Joe can make 165 beating Marinelli would be huge for seeding at NCAA but that's a pretty tough way to start first match down.

 

[vhsalum]

If JoJo wouldn't drink himself up to heavyweight from April to October, this wouldn't be a problem.

John's initial "plan" was for JoJo to make 157. I think we can all agree that was a terrible plan. The cut was too much and his "lower body" injury (Patriot joke, for those that catch it) didn't help him in staying disciplined.

John has always gone all-in, but I'm wondering if Weigel wrestling is a mistake. He almost certainly would have received a medical. And Jacobe and Geer are still potential AAs at 184 and 197, respectively.

I think the best lineup, with a disciplined JoJo would have been:

165 - JoJo
174 - Jacobe
184 - Chandler
197 - Weigel/Geer

Pretty sure Geer has a redshirt, so, without a weigel injury, he'd be redshirting now.

Chandler should have been a 184. He wrestled ridiculously well at 86kg this summer. There's actual data he would be just as good up two weights.

 

[Cowguy]

There is some truth as far as potential issues of the cut down to 65 which is what you saw a week or so ago in two losses. He has been cutting and pushing his weight down and it showed in those two losses (still was right there with 2 top 10 guys despite).

They will know what weight Joe will have the most impact at and go from there. I think he beats both Chandler or Jacobe which stinks for one of them but we knew one of the three would miss out going into the year so this isn't a new frustration.

I don’t think he scores enough on Cobe. You saw his issues against the better 74’s - he just got out bourses. Cobe is easily one of the strongest 74’s out there. I just don’t see joe penetrating that defense enough to consistently beat cobe.

 

[Cowguy]

If JoJo wouldn't drink himself up to heavyweight from April to October, this wouldn't be a problem.

John's initial "plan" was for JoJo to make 157. I think we can all agree that was a terrible plan. The cut was too much and his "lower body" injury (Patriot joke, for those that catch it) didn't help him in staying disciplined.

John has always gone all-in, but I'm wondering if Weigel wrestling is a mistake. He almost certainly would have received a medical. And Jacobe and Geer are still potential AAs at 184 and 197, respectively.

I think the best lineup, with a disciplined JoJo would have been:

165 - JoJo
174 - Jacobe
184 - Chandler
197 - Weigel/Geer

Pretty sure Geer has a redshirt, so, without a weigel injury, he'd be redshirting now.

Chandler should have been a 184. He wrestled ridiculously well at 86kg this summer. There's actual data he would be just as good up two weights.

Geer has no redshirt.

 

[osu2082]

I don’t think he scores enough on Cobe. You saw his issues against the better 74’s - he just got out bourses. Cobe is easily one of the strongest 74’s out there. I just don’t see joe penetrating that defense enough to consistently beat cobe.

He struggled against the two guys last week (#5 and #6) mainly due to the weight cutting process they are looking into for him.

I think without that he would be just fine against those two. He didn't have those issues against Hidlay or McFadden and was right there with the #1 guy in the country.

If they are all in Joe going 174 I think he beats Jacobe every time they wrestle. It might be close but don't think the result is in doubt. The good news (or crappy news) is we will find out in the next few weeks.

 

[Air_Thurman]

I feel like I've missed some backstory somewhere. All Joe Smith has done is win and it seems like this board is always trying to find a way to get him out of the lineup. He is our most accomplished folkstyle wrestler.

 

[Sebastian]

Heard a good story about Joe and Boo that illustrates their differences.

 

[vhsalum]

I feel like I've missed some backstory somewhere. All Joe Smith has done is win and it seems like this board is always trying to find a way to get him out of the lineup. He is our most accomplished folkstyle wrestler.

It's exactly the opposite. This board and fans across the nation WANT Joe in the lineup. He's so technically sound its beautiful to watch him wrestle. I still go back and watch matches of his from high school and his first two years at 157.

It's just an open secret that Joe doesn't want to live the lifestyle 12 months a year. John is known as a guy that lets his guys be "cowboys." It's a big reason OkieState guys translate to MMA so well. They're tough all the time. But Joe goes to the opposite end of the spectrum, ballooning up in weight and losing his fitness.

 

[Air_Thurman]

It's exactly the opposite. This board and fans across the nation WANT Joe in the lineup. He's so technically sound its beautiful to watch him wrestle. I still go back and watch matches of his from high school and his first two years at 157.

It's just an open secret that Joe doesn't want to live the lifestyle 12 months a year. John is known as a guy that lets his guys be "cowboys." It's a big reason OkieState guys translate to MMA so well. They're tough all the time. But Joe goes to the opposite end of the spectrum, ballooning up in weight and losing his fitness.

I just don't get it because the kid is a two-time all american. He performs. I'll admit I have zero inside information but frankly I don't really care what he does off the mat. Every time he has been called on a nationals he has scored a good amount of points for us.

 

[Wrassler17]

I'm not saying you are wrong. You might be 100% correct. I will say, when it comes to weight guys should be at fans don't generally have a clue. It is super easy to say this guy should be at this weight, why isn't this guy here (I do it). That being said no one except the wrestlers and coaching staff really knows these guys bodies and how effectively these guys can carry or lose additional weight.

I'm not saying thing were handled 100% correctly. That being said I have a hard time believing someone like John Smith went into this year with no real plan to how this would all go.

Completely fair. I was only offering an opinion based on the limited knowledge we all have as "outsiders". And to clarify, I was not talking about the weight shuffling caused by the injuries. I would probably have bumped up Shomers, but left Jacobe & Dakota down and put Marsden at 197. But, hey, the coaches tried it and decided to go back. No biggie.

I was talking about the off season lineup plan. And I agree with you that John & Co absolutely had one, with the idea that they would make changes if needed. I really only would have handled 157 differently.

Here's what I think it was...pure speculation...

- The coaches wanted Daton @ 133 because the multiple weight cuts to 125 would be tough for him. I think Daton wanted a shot at Spencer, so he needed to be convinced (up until Dec) that 133 was best for him and the team.
- They thought G's best weight was @ 141 and Boo's was @ 149. So 157 was going to be Shomers or Jonce (I think Wyatt's emergence was a surprise and one of the best parts of this year).
- They wanted Joe at 165 and both Chandler & Jacobe to slid up. Dakota was probably told he could compete for 184 and be the priority backup for 197. Joe's weight and delayed start threw a wrench into that.

 

[MVPFAN]

It will be interesting to see how the cut down works out. I thought Joe looked very good at 174 (until he started to cut) and Jacobe was settling in very well at 184. Yes Geer seems a bit small at 197 but I think still good enough to possibly AA at a weak weight. I think sucking Joe down a weight is rolling the dice for sure. It could work fine but him and extra cutting are not the best mix. I think Jacobe has a similar upside at 174 or 184. What is hard to tell is how far back to being on top of their game are Rodgers and Weigel going to be. They both were for sure rusty vs AF.

More points?:

165 Rodgers coming off injury or Joe sucked down a weight? Some unknown with both options.

174 Joe or Jacobe: I'd say Joe does better here but close.

184 Jacobe or Geer: I like Jacobe to do better here.

197 Geer or Weigel: Both on top of their game you have to say Weigel but not likely he will be at 100% his best off of injury. Some unkown here too.

 

[Sebastian]

Joe performs at nationals...he could perform better. What is it that can make a person hungry....hmmmm. Working out really super hard?

 

[osu2082]

It will be interesting to see how the cut down works out. I thought Joe looked very good at 174 (until he started to cut) and Jacobe was settling in very well at 184. Yes Geer seems a bit small at 197 but I think still good enough to possibly AA at a weak weight. I think sucking Joe down a weight is rolling the dice for sure. It could work fine but him and extra cutting are not the best mix. I think Jacobe has a similar upside at 174 or 184. What is hard to tell is how far back to being on top of their game are Rodgers and Weigel going to be. They both were for sure rusty vs AF.

More points?:

165 Rodgers coming off injury or Joe sucked down a weight? Some unknown with both options.

174 Joe or Jacobe: I'd say Joe does better here but close.

184 Jacobe or Geer: I like Jacobe to do better here.

197 Geer or Weigel: Both on top of their game you have to say Weigel but not likely he will be at 100% his best off of injury. Some unkown here too.

If Joe handles the weight cut he is a title contender at 165. He would not be so at 174.

Thes best thing for us is Joe at 165 if he can handle the cut. The downside is his seed will be very bad.

I think Jacobe scores more at 174 than he can at 184 and Preston obviously has a much higher ceiling than Geer at 197.

 

[ionel]

If Joe handles the weight cut he is a title contender at 165. He would not be so at 174.

Thes best thing for us is Joe at 165 if he can handle the cut. The downside is his seed will be very bad..

IMO Joe is more likely to beat Hall (he showed that already) than Cenzo. He is more likely to be in title match at 165, but I'd say less likely to win a title at 165. Problem is, we dont know if he can handle the cut. Now that doesn't mean it isn't best for the team. If Weigel is healthy (still big if, look at last year), then drop to keep more points in the lineup makes sense. If Weigel weren't back then more points leaving as was.

Problem is there's 2 big ifs, can Joe handle cut & can Weigel survive the tournaments?

 

[tfpoke]

Joe is 2-8 against wrestlers in the top 10 the past 3 seasons (not counting medical forfeits against Chandler and Jacobe). Not sure why you guys have him as a finalist. Not saying he isn't capable, but it's not like he's really proven it. I realize he was tied with Hall late in the match.... not sure how much of that had to do Hall staying in a Thai clinch for most of the match.

 

[BigD_cowboy]

He's not beating zahid either