Wheel of Time TV series

[PDT816]

I know some here have read the books. Rumors started again by Jordan's widow are that a TV series is starting production.

Have to admit, Game of Thrones has me a little excited about the prospect. GOT is so successful, someone might actually make it with high production values. And honestly, it's a lot better narrative than ASOIAF.

 

[MegaPoke]

This would be awesone. And GOT has set a great precedent for the genre.

Actually I think Peter Jackson's LOTR series (not Hobbit which sucked) set the precedent and it's better realized via high production mini series

 

[cornichon]

I know some here have read the books. Rumors started again by Jordan's widow are that a TV series is starting production.

Have to admit, Game of Thrones has me a little excited about the prospect. GOT is so successful, someone might actually make it with high production values. And honestly, it's a lot better narrative than ASOIAF.

I'm excited by the idea too. I was turned on to the series by a friend at OSU, so I think I started reading in about 2000. It looks like Winter's Heart came out in the fall of 2000, and I remember that being the first one I read as a new release.

The Wheel of Time and A Song of Ice and Fire have a lot in common, I think. They're both sprawling epics that suffer from story creep (GRRM outlined a book trilogy that now is looking at 7 books; Robert Jordan's series made it all the way to 14). ASoIaF fans always cite Jordan when they worry that GRRM might die before finishing the series since that's exactly what happened to Jordan; the series was finished by another author. Both series spend a lot of time on the politics of the various nations/regions and (presumably, in the case of ASoIaF) how to gather up the nations under one banner to fight the Big Bad at the end. In weird ways, they both owe a lot to Tolkien. WoT is like a more adult, less fairy tale version of LotR. It's very much a hero's journey with the Chosen One starting life as a simple farmer and all that. The first book of the series really mimics the hobbits' escape from the Shire. But it diverges pretty quickly into a story filled with politics, sex, and some pretty gruesome deaths that never appeared in LotR. ASoIaF seems to be a very deliberate attempt to do sprawling fantasy in whatever constitutes the exact opposite of the LotR style.

I've read WoT multiple times, and while I enjoyed it more than ASoIaF, I'm not sure if the narrative is better. It's cleaner in terms of the lines between good and bad guys. Due to the more overt prevalance of magic in WoT, it could be more of a spectacle than GoT. I'm not sure if the crossover audience that has embraced GoT would necessarily also embrace WoT; it definitely falls into a lot of the nerdy fantasy stereotypes that I feel like GoT overcomes in pulling its audience. One thing is for sure: there's a ton of padding in WoT that can be excised. Like it did with GRRM, the story definitely seemed to get away from Jordan, resulting in some excursions into areas that didn't really seem to move the plot forward, sometimes for books (really long books) at a time. Jordan needed a better/different editor than his wife. Any show would, like GoT, really need to carefully pare down the overwhelming number of characters and disparate storylines. So, it will certainly be another show where insufferable book readers will be there to tell everyone at every turn how the books did it better. Still, I think it could be an incredible series. I hope it actually works out this time.

 

[PDT816]

The reason I think WoT has a better narrative is that the characters almost always have a goal and taking control of their own destiny. Other than Dani, everyone in ASOIAF is basically just taking it on the chin over and over. It's basically last man standing.

The thing GoT has going for it is all the dynamic unknown elements that translates to great water cooler type conversation. The thing is, fans always figure it out early on.

 

[trapped_in_tx]

I'm excited by the idea too. I was turned on to the series by a friend at OSU, so I think I started reading in about 2000. It looks like Winter's Heart came out in the fall of 2000, and I remember that being the first one I read as a new release.

The Wheel of Time and A Song of Ice and Fire have a lot in common, I think. They're both sprawling epics that suffer from story creep (GRRM outlined a book trilogy that now is looking at 7 books; Robert Jordan's series made it all the way to 14). ASoIaF fans always cite Jordan when they worry that GRRM might die before finishing the series since that's exactly what happened to Jordan; the series was finished by another author. Both series spend a lot of time on the politics of the various nations/regions and (presumably, in the case of ASoIaF) how to gather up the nations under one banner to fight the Big Bad at the end. In weird ways, they both owe a lot to Tolkien. WoT is like a more adult, less fairy tale version of LotR. It's very much a hero's journey with the Chosen One starting life as a simple farmer and all that. The first book of the series really mimics the hobbits' escape from the Shire. But it diverges pretty quickly into a story filled with politics, sex, and some pretty gruesome deaths that never appeared in LotR. ASoIaF seems to be a very deliberate attempt to do sprawling fantasy in whatever constitutes the exact opposite of the LotR style.

I've read WoT multiple times, and while I enjoyed it more than ASoIaF, I'm not sure if the narrative is better. It's cleaner in terms of the lines between good and bad guys. Due to the more overt prevalance of magic in WoT, it could be more of a spectacle than GoT. I'm not sure if the crossover audience that has embraced GoT would necessarily also embrace WoT; it definitely falls into a lot of the nerdy fantasy stereotypes that I feel like GoT overcomes in pulling its audience. One thing is for sure: there's a ton of padding in WoT that can be excised. Like it did with GRRM, the story definitely seemed to get away from Jordan, resulting in some excursions into areas that didn't really seem to move the plot forward, sometimes for books (really long books) at a time. Jordan needed a better/different editor than his wife. Any show would, like GoT, really need to carefully pare down the overwhelming number of characters and disparate storylines. So, it will certainly be another show where insufferable book readers will be there to tell everyone at every turn how the books did it better. Still, I think it could be an incredible series. I hope it actually works out this time.

I started reading WoT shortly after it began, likely sometime in 1991. Waiting over TWENTY YEARS for a story to conclude exceeded my patience threshold.

I barely skimmed the last four novels save the last, and I power-skimmed that one in one night. I will grant that the final book was much better in terms of advancing the story but it wasn't good enough to overcome my two biggest beefs:

1. The time commitment to read fourteen 800+ page novels (small print no less!) is significant at a minimum. I would personally consider it a very large commitment. But, when the arrival of those books span twenty years, there is no possible way to remember dozens of characters, let alone their stories, without re-reading several of the books, if not all of them, perhaps multiple times. This ultimately caused me to lose interest.

2. The nearly comical level of distrust and lack of communication leading to adversarial relationships between males and females in this universe led me to extreme levels of frustration. I get why it is the way he envisioned it but for me to care about the characters they need have some measure of relatability. There were points when I was hoping he was going to kill off a number of 'heroes' because they were insufferably paranoid and self righteous.

All that negativity aside, I think a TV series has the potential to render certainly my first issue moot and perhaps lessen some of the infuriating paranoia of some of the characters.

Lastly, I am concerned that the other point about WoT being more of a geek draw might be legit. If their answer to that is violence and nudity then I won't have much interest.

 

[cornichon]

Couldn't agree with your second point more. Even more than the extreme length of the series, the wait between books (I "only" waited 12-13 years to finish unlike your 20+), and the books that served to do little more than describe some lady's dress, the battle of the sexes stuff was the most annoying aspect of the books. The number of times a woman tugged her braid or called someone a woolhead was perhaps only exceeded by the number of times a man kept a secret that could have spared everyone a huge headache.

I disagree a bit with your last point. I think because the series fits so well in the same mind space as lighter fare like LotR, people forget just how much violence and sex there is in WoT. Because of the ferocity of the magic in use and the size of the armies involved, the battles in WoT frankly make the battles in ASoIaF look like kiddie hour. And there's arguably just as much rape in WoT as ASoIaF; certainly there's more consensual sex.

 

[PDT816]

I'm with Corn here. WoT might be a coming of age type book for readers, but it's probably more R-rated than ASOIAF if you put it on TV and stay true to the books. I'm really hoping it's a premium channel involved or I'll be disappointed.

 

[TheRedSon]

Neither show needs as much on screen
sex and violence as HBO's GoT to be true to the source material.

Although rape is certainly part of WOT I don't remember it happening to any of the characters te narrative wants you to care about. It is mostly used as a way to show the audience "this guy/gal is a really evil sicko." In GoT it is used as a way to develop a character. As if Dany can't become a strong character unless she is first raped, or Sansa can't become devious until after she's raped. That doesn't happen to Egwene or Nynaeve (or Elaine, Aviendha, Faile, Berelain, Birgette, Tuon... At least I don't remember it.)

 

[trapped_in_tx]

TRS is pretty much making the point that I failed to make. I am not convinced that graphic depiction of certain violent or sexual scenes from WoT are necessary to successfully tell a compelling story.

I don't watch GoT because of that. I might read the books at some point to see if I find the story compelling, but even detailed graphic scenes in novels turn me off. For me personally, entertainment and an accurate depiction of how horrific human behavior can become are incongruous.

 

[cornichon]

I'm really not trying to get into a debate about rape with anyone, and I'm certainly not advocating for it in storytelling, particularly as a device to provide character growth. I was only trying to say that WoT is more adult in nature than people might be remembering. Even you RedSon, whom I know to be a big fan, are forgetting that Mat was repeatedly raped, as was Morgase, Elayne's mother (by multiple people, I believe). They may not have been "typical," but the circumstances certainly weren't consensual, and I don't know what else you could call that.

 

[trapped_in_tx]

I'm really not trying to get into a debate about rape with anyone, and I'm certainly not advocating for it in storytelling, particularly as a device to provide character growth. I was only trying to say that WoT is more adult in nature than people might be remembering. Even you RedSon, whom I know to be a big fan, are forgetting that Mat was repeatedly raped, as was Morgase, Elayne's mother (by multiple people, I believe). They may not have been "typical," but the circumstances certainly weren't consensual, and I don't know what else you could call that.

I do generally agree with your basic premise as stated - WoT doesn't shy away from some very serious stuff at times.

I will admit that I don't remember some of those instances - Mat in particular. Like I said, my impatience brought me to skimming close to the point when the Seanchan story lines were more dominant.

 

[100TonsofOrangeFury]

In GoT it is used as a way to develop a character. As if Dany can't become a strong character unless she is first raped, or Sansa can't become devious until after she's raped. That doesn't happen to Egwene or Nynaeve (or Elaine, Aviendha, Faile, Berelain, Birgette, Tuon... At least I don't remember it.)

Dany was never raped in GOT.

 

[TheRedSon]

Dany was never raped in GOT.

I guess that depends on your definition of rape. Sexual intercourse with a 14 year old is considered rape in all 50 states though.

As long as we're discussing rapes that didn't happen though... Sansa has not been raped in the books.

 

[100TonsofOrangeFury]

I guess that depends on your definition of rape. Sexual intercourse with a 14 year old is considered rape in all 50 states though.

As long as we're discussing rapes that didn't happen though... Sansa has not been raped in the books.

What if, like her, you're married at 14?

Come on, I know some of you have cousins in Little Dixie that were married by then.

 

[TheRedSon]

I do generally agree with your basic premise as stated - WoT doesn't shy away from some very serious stuff at times.

I will admit that I don't remember some of those instances - Mat in particular. Like I said, my impatience brought me to skimming close to the point when the Seanchan story lines were more dominant.

Corn is suggestinrg (with good reason) that Mat was raped multiple times by Tylin Mitsobar, the Queen of Altara. I forget how long Mat is stuck there, but it is between books 8 and 10, maybe all three of them.

 

[TheRedSon]

What if, like her, you're married at 14?

Come on, I know some of you have cousins in Little Dixie that were married by then.

And yet in 2016 all 50 states also recognize that rape happens within a marriage.

 

[TheRedSon]

I'm sad that a discussion of two of my favorite series has turned into this... It is perhaps necessary and good though.

To me there are two major differences between WOT and ASOIAF (GOT)... Martin wants the reader to feel like magic is mysterious and no longer a part of his world (until he pulls it anyway). Despite opening the whole series with a scene involving the Others and closing book one with the birth of dragons, Martin makes us feel like we're in a historical fiction most of the time. We need to be reminded it is a fantastical world, as do his characters. Jordan makes no attempt to hide the magic in his world. It is well defined and understood by his readers. It is still rare on his world, but not among the characters we're actively reading about. Magic is no more common though. The Starks are Wargs. Dany is immune to fire. Characters are brought back from the dead. Renly was murdered by a shadow. Khal Drogo's death involved magic. Martin just takes his sweet time telling us that John Snow and Arya Stark can talk to wolves. We know Perrin Aybara can half way through book one in the WOT. We know Mat Cauthon speaks a dead language he never studied before that. It's the same difference between John Snow and Rand Al'Thor. Martin hides John's importance from us subtly. We know Rand matters immediately.

The second difference is Martin writes gray characters as heroes. Jordan doesn't. He'll walk Rand and Perrin right up to the cliff of becoming villains, sure. Rand will even do some evil things believing them to be right. We know he's not being himself though. It is the strain of his burdens more than the content of his character. Not so with Tyrion or Jaime Lannister or Sandor Clegane. In fact, other than Ned Stark and Barriston Selmy there are apparently no "good" characters in all of Westeros over the age of 14.

 

[TheRedSon]

BTW, I started WOT in August of 1994. I remember it was August because my dad have me $15 for books the day before we moved back to Texas from Stillwater. I was 15 years old and leaving home the day I met Rand, Mat and Perrin. I don't know that I'd argue it's a better narrative than anything else, but it will probably always be my favorite.

 

[TheRedSon]

There is and will be a huge crossover of fans from both series. There will also probably be a lot of people drawn to GOT that just don't like fantasy (or don't think they do).

That said, WOT will appeal to everyone that liked Star Wars or Harry Potter, and that's not necessarily true of GOT.

 

[trapped_in_tx]

Corn is suggestinrg (with good reason) that Mat was raped multiple times by Tylin Mitsobar, the Queen of Altara. I forget how long Mat is stuck there, but it is between books 8 and 10, maybe all three of them.

That makes sense. I started losing patience around books 7 & 8 and by 9 (Winter's Heart) I started skimming for high points and barely read much of 9, 10, or 11.

 

[trapped_in_tx]

I'm sad that a discussion of two of my favorite series has turned into this... It is perhaps necessary and good though.

To me there are two major differences between WOT and ASOIAF (GOT)... Martin wants the reader to feel like magic is mysterious and no longer a part of his world (until he pulls it anyway). Despite opening the whole series with a scene involving the Others and closing book one with the birth of dragons, Martin makes us feel like we're in a historical fiction most of the time. We need to be reminded it is a fantastical world, as do his characters. Jordan makes no attempt to hide the magic in his world. It is well defined and understood by his readers. It is still rare on his world, but not among the characters we're actively reading about. Magic is no more common though. The Starks are Wargs. Dany is immune to fire. Characters are brought back from the dead. Renly was murdered by a shadow. Khal Drogo's death involved magic. Martin just takes his sweet time telling us that John Snow and Arya Stark can talk to wolves. We know Perrin Aybara can half way through book one in the WOT. We know Mat Cauthon speaks a dead language he never studied before that. It's the same difference between John Snow and Rand Al'Thor. Martin hides John's importance from us subtly. We know Rand matters immediately.

The second difference is Martin writes gray characters as heroes. Jordan doesn't. He'll walk Rand and Perrin right up to the cliff of becoming villains, sure. Rand will even do some evil things believing them to be right. We know he's not being himself though. It is the strain of his burdens more than the content of his character. Not so with Tyrion or Jaime Lannister or Sandor Clegane. In fact, other than Ned Stark and Barriston Selmy there are apparently no "good" characters in all of Westeros over the age of 14.

Like I said, at some point hopefully I will have the time to read ASOIAF and form a more informed opinion. However, for me personally, I don't usually have as much interest in stories that focus on characters that are firmly 'gray'.

At some point I also suspect that I will pick up WOT again and try to push through the whole of it. Knowing that I won't be likely to forget most of the story by the time I get to the last book should help my level of interest.

 

[FalseGod]

I just hope that it gets a treatment more akin to GOT than what they did to the Goodkind series. Legend of the Seeker was a pretty bad adaption.

 

[cornichon]

Did you guys see the one episode of WoT that aired about a year ago in the middle of the night? It was pretty terrible. Word was that one episode was made so that the company that had the license could keep it. I assume those are the legal issues Jordan's widow referred to in her announcement.

Here's an article about the "pilot" last year:
http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-real-story-about-that-wheel-of-time-pilot-that-aire-1684773094

 

[TheRedSon]

Did you guys see the one episode of WoT that aired about a year ago in the middle of the night? It was pretty terrible. Word was that one episode was made so that the company that had the license could keep it. I assume those are the legal issues Jordan's widow referred to in her announcement.

Here's an article about the "pilot" last year:
http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-real-story-about-that-wheel-of-time-pilot-that-aire-1684773094

I did not see it, but was aware of it and read a few articles after it aired.

 

[cornichon]

I did not see it, but was aware of it and read a few articles after it aired.

That article I linked has the video embedded a couple times in the comments if you'd like to check it out. I think I made it through maybe 10 minutes.

 

[TheRedSon]

http://geekandsundry.com/the-wheel-of-time-is-officially-coming-to-television/