What is the nature and purpose of government?

[Ponca Dan]

I have been reading with interest and dismay the comments regarding the Republican Establishment's rollout of their version of ObamaCare. Everyone seems to offer their notion of what the government ought to do to "fix" the healthcare crisis. Everyone seems to be of the opinion that fixing the healthcare crisis is a perfectly acceptable function of government.

Which leads me to these questions: what is the purpose of government? What constitutes its proper role in society? What is government morally allowed to do in society's name, and what are its limits? Does it have any limits? Where do you draw the line?

 

[CBradSmith]

Generally speaking...in its the Preamble.

But I hate legislation just for the sake of needing something to do. Not all action is beneficial.

 

[CBradSmith]

And my personal belief is a vaguely defined "less is more."

 

[Marshal Jim Duncan]

In the case of Obamacare, the general public simply isn't going to accept no replacement. I agree it shouldn't be a function of the government.

 

[Tulsaaggieson]

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

CBradSmith uses a good formula.

1. Secure the Union - to me this is about keeping the states tolerating each other. (Tolerable is an acceptable level.)
2. Establish Justice - appointing and keeping the federal court system running
3. Insuring domestic Tranquility - Keeping the peace, and providing law enforcement that enforces the laws on the books.
4. Promote the General Welfare - give good advice to the welfare of the nation. Here promote is the key word, and to me this means you can advocate but not dictate.
5. Secure the blessing of liberty to ourselves - Defend our island, and always default to liberty when governing

There will be different takes on the promote the general welfare, and insuring domestic tranquility. I would even expect some challenges on how I interpret defaulting to liberty, but I think its a good way for US citizens to start to think about this important subject and what it means for how they vote.

 

[Ponca Dan]

I have been reading with interest and dismay the comments regarding the Republican Establishment's rollout of their version of ObamaCare. Everyone seems to offer their notion of what the government ought to do to "fix" the healthcare crisis. Everyone seems to be of the opinion that fixing the healthcare crisis is a perfectly acceptable function of government.

Which leads me to these questions: what is the purpose of government? What constitutes its proper role in society? What is government morally allowed to do in society's name, and what are its limits? Does it have any limits? Where do you draw the line?

I appreciate the comments so far. It's the beginning of what could be a lively and educational discussion, as long as we keep it civil

The first question I should have asked is the most fundamental of all: what is government? Is there a difference between "government" and "the state," and what would that difference be?

 

[Tulsaaggieson]

You choose two words that have multiple meanings in the context of any discussion on politics.

Government could be in reference to both federal and state. Typical meanings of the word will revolve around any body that sets laws for a population of people. Even your HOA is a governmental body.

State can mean the state you live in or federal governments can also be known as states. IE the state of Oklahoma, or even the State of Egypt depending on how you are using the word at the time. I tend to think of the states of the United states as individual countries bound together in mutual benefit as the United States. The EU is an attempt to have the states of Europe do the same thing. Their problem is that they have been trying to kill each other for far to long to make it work right, but that's another discussion.

 

[CBradSmith]

Wanted to bring @Ponca Dan 's remark outside of the quote box....here is what he (Ponca Dan) replied:

"Albert J. Nick has an interesting postulation. He describes government as the general social norms that the overwhelming majority ascribes to. All of us know we shouldn't murder or steal or rape, for example. We simply don't do those things because we know it would be wrong. We adhere to certain moral standards without them being forced.

The state, on the other hand, is t
the agency within a society which is given permission to use force or violence, if deemed necessary, to keep the populace in line.

The dilemma is how to contain the growth of the state into tyranny.

Do you agree with this analysis?"

 

[CBradSmith]

And in response, I agree with that general definition....as the state being that which we grant coercive force.

And, as defined above, the government is inadequate to protect the rights of those in the minority. It is ESPECIALLY inadequate to protect anything you may define as an inalienable right. Which is why "the state" is necessary.

That said, in many ways I believe the state has grown too large.

 

[Ponca Dan]

And in response, I agree with that general definition....as the state being that which we grant coercive force.

And, as defined above, the government is inadequate to protect the rights of those in the minority. It is ESPECIALLY inadequate to protect anything you may define as an inalienable right. Which is why "the state" is necessary.

That said, in many ways I believe the state has grown too large.

Thanks for correcting my boo boo! I'm not sure I understand your response. Are you saying the state is necessary to protect rights, but it is inadequate to perform this function?

 

[AC_Exotic]

Government that does the least helps the most.

Anytime those morons tell us they are going to do something for the American people, you can be sure it's going to cost us something.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Government that does the least helps the most.

Anytime those morons tell us they are going to do something for the American people, you can be sure it's going to cost us something.

So is it your contention that no "state" would be best? If that is not your contention, then where is the line drawn for the government that does the least? And by what mechanism would society be able to restrain the government from advancing past that line?

 

[AC_Exotic]

So is it your contention that no "state" would be best? If that is not your contention, then where is the line drawn for the government that does the least? And by what mechanism would society be able to restrain the government from advancing past that line?

Protect us. Keep the peace.

At one time through Constitution purportedly placed restrictions on politicians. No one seems to pay much attention to that anymore.

We get things done thru executive orders or legislation from the judiciary.

I don't know why I'm complaining. It's been that way as long as I remember.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Protect us. Keep the peace.

At one time through Constitution purportedly placed restrictions on politicians. No one seems to pay much attention to that anymore.

We get things done thru executive orders or legislation from the judiciary.

I don't know why I'm complaining. It's been that way as long as I remember.

Gosh, AC, it's been that way from the beginning. George Washington sent in troops to violently put down the Whiskey Rebellion which had risen up in protest against unfair taxation against the weakest section of our country at the time. In my opinion GW is our greatest president. It's been a long slow slide down hill ever since.

What remedy is available to stop the insatiable appetite for power by those who are given it?

 

[AC_Exotic]

What remedy is available to stop the insatiable appetite for power by those who are given it?

Guns.

And make me POTUS for life.

I'll be firm but fair.

All commies will be shipped to Cuba or Zimbabwe.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Guns.

And make me POTUS for life.

I'll be firm but fair.

All commies will be shipped to Cuba or Zimbabwe.

Now that's a perfect prescription for a free society!

 

[aix_xpert]

My wife told me this once...a government's only job is to perpetuate itself. Thus it will always choose growing over shrinking and control over non-control.

Justin

 

[imprimis]

The purpose of government and what it has become are on opposite ends of the spectrum. The government which governs least governs best is how it was originally designed. Unfortunately, serving themselves is their first order of business and nothing happens until that's accomplished. This includes federal workers since no Congress can function without bringing them along to create a buffer between the Congress and the people.

 

[Ponca Dan]

My wife told me this once...a government's only job is to perpetuate itself. Thus it will always choose growing over shrinking and control over non-control.

Justin

Smart wife you have! Does she have any ideas on how to prevent/curtail the menace?

 

[aix_xpert]

Smart wife you have! Does she have any ideas on how to prevent/curtail the menace?

Its funny because she's a moderate Dem (yes, there are a few left). She voted for Hillary. And she rails on the fact that its about time for a woman to be elected president. But in her next breath, she'll rail on Dems about the idiocy of having open borders as a position, and laughs at the hypocrisy that all of these countries that we want "open" immigration with, would NEVER allow American's to come and live uninvited. She'd probably be a Republican if their environmental positions weren't always aligned to "what makes the most money".

 

[Medic007]

She'd probably be a Republican if their environmental positions weren't always aligned to "what makes the most money"

Tell her to look into the Democrat positions that make them the most money. Soros buying coal rights and Al Gore/David Blood's cap and trade carbon exchange schemes come to mind. Follow the easy money.

 

[poke2001]

What is the government? It's supposed to be us...but it hasn't been for a very long time.

Now, what is their role? That depends on which level.

Federal? Their job is supposed to be the smallest function. Keep our boarders safe and essentially keep the states together (handle disputes). Another function would be foreign deplomacy.

State? That should be up to each state.

Local? See above.

 

[Rdcldad]

Tell her to look into the Democrat positions that make them the most money. Soros buying coal rights and Al Gore/David Blood's cap and trade carbon exchange schemes come to mind. Follow the easy money.

maybe get into solar?