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Was it racial profiling or bigotry....

OKSTATE1

MegaPoke is insane
Gold Member
May 29, 2001
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Edmond, Oklahoma
When the KKK was burning down the homes of African americans and lynching African americans decades ago, was it racial profiling then for law enforcement to center the investigation around Caucasian males who were from the south, with a southern drawl, and names that suggested southern ancestry? Was it profiling or bigotry to look for certain clothing and hoods? If the KKK was to radicalize today and hide behind a religion, would we drop all common sense and not do common sense police work? Like profiling?

Or are we to the point the only racists that can exist in this country are Caucasians and Caucasians can never experience racism and any negative actions against Caucasians can not ever be considered racist?

Over our national or local security, we are a country that throws out all common sense when it comes to good policing in order to clear our conscience of what America is suppose to represent when our conscience needs no clearing.

Give me some really good common sense, profiling and detective work to maintain our security.
 
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Back when it was a huge problem it was needed if there was reasonable cause. Reasonable cause obtained by good detective work and profiling.

Profiling and good detective work are mutually exclusive concepts.

Profiling is stopping, detaining, investigating, seizing property, etc. SOLELY on the basis of race, sex, nationality, etc.

That ain't good detective work. It's pretty much the exact opposite.
 
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Its almost as if hypothetically exchanging your liberties for security when you know you will never actually be the victim of the tyranny is very easy.

I wish you people would care about the other amendments half as much as the second one.

Making a lot of assumptions.....If I get frisked for reasonable cause I am fine, was not aware that is tyranny. I will cooperate fully and not make it a racial issue. I want the bad guys caught. Willing to be inconvenienced for that.
 
Making a lot of assumptions.....If I get frisked for reasonable cause I am fine, was not aware that is tyranny. I will cooperate fully and not make it a racial issue. I want the bad guys caught. Willing to be inconvenienced for that.

Is skin color and last name reasonable cause?
 
Is skin color and last name reasonable cause?

If a certain skin color and last name was causing crimes, it has to be considered. It would be a first filter, and then detective work needed to determine reasonable cause. You suggesting the police should have focused on Asians and African americans and every other ethnic group when it came to penetrating the KKK decades ago? That would be a waste of time and just plain stupid. Again, common sense folks, but let's turn it to complicate this more than it needs to be.

The organization I work for was audited about 4 years ago by the IRS, we do business world wide and I am the CFO. I was sitting in KPMG's office with someone from KPMG who was the Director over their entire Southwest tax practice in a certain area of tax expertise, someone who had the 2nd most powerful person at the IRS on her cell phone and lunched with regularly, someone who was the AICPA liaison to the IRS for this particular area of tax practice. Anyway, the IRS agent headed down this line of questioning to see if our activities might be involved in terrorism overseas. This person from KPMG went ape *hit at the agent saying how insulting it was to even go down this path, even threatened the agent with who at the IRS she knew and could call at anytime on her cell phone and voice her concerns. I very calmly told our rep from KPMG that it was ok for this line of questioning, I said if the agent believes one single American life could be saved from this line of questioning I would answer their questions all day long literally for 8 hours or whatever it took, said we had nothing to hide and I would be glad to assist in their fight against terrorism and that as an American I would assist in anyway possible and I understood the agent was trying to do his job. That is how I roll, so been there and done that, that is being a patriot first and not getting caught up if my feelings got hurt and if we had been "wronged" and play the victim.
 
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Its almost as if hypothetically exchanging your liberties for security when you know you will never actually be the victim of the tyranny is very easy.

I wish you people would care about the other amendments half as much as the second one.


Just let the facts and statistics speak for themselves. I want to live in peace and if I have to empty my pockets and show my drivers license in areas where white people are wrecking the neighborhood big fvcking deal.
 
Why is this thread equating stop and frisk with racial profiling. These are not equivalents. Stop and frisk is (or should be) unconstitutional as it serves as a warrantless search of a person. But racial profiling is simply the application of common sense and statistics to a given circumstance.

Justin
 
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Beggs the question, can skin color, race, religion, etc. be a part of a profile based on good police work just as height, weight, clothing, etc?

Not the sole criteria but part of an overall picture?
 
Pilt, how many Muslims in the world follow to Koran to the tune of wanting Islam to be the only religion and advocate violence, assault or murder to achieve this? (I will be shocked if you answer this). I've heard 10 -25%. Obviously I have no idea but what percentage do you think? With 1.8 billion Muslims if it is 10% then that is a significant number to look extra close at. If Muslim men of proper age out of the 90% want to pick up a gun and rid us of the that aspect of their ideology alongside the west then we can put all this to bed sooner than later.

Until then, Muslims belong under the microscope especially if they come from certain parts of the world. if that's an inconvenience too bad.
 
In America racial profiling is useless. If you profiled people based on how they dressed and how they talked you would be in much better shape.

No one follows van jones when he goes into the mall. Marshal mathers before he was famous, he gets followed.
 
Pilt, how many Muslims in the world follow to Koran to the tune of wanting Islam to be the only religion and advocate violence, assault or murder to achieve this? (I will be shocked if you answer this). I've heard 10 -25%. Obviously I have no idea but what percentage do you think? With 1.8 billion Muslims if it is 10% then that is a significant number to look extra close at. If Muslim men of proper age out of the 90% want to pick up a gun and rid us of the that aspect of their ideology alongside the west then we can put all this to bed sooner than later.

Until then, Muslims belong under the microscope especially if they come from certain parts of the world. if that's an inconvenience too bad.
If 180 million Muslims are as bad as you say, they shouldn't have such a hard time holding Mosul.

If there is one thing we should have learned by now, picking up a gun isn't really an effective way of combating ideology.
 
In America racial profiling is useless. If you profiled people based on how they dressed and how they talked you would be in much better shape.

No one follows van jones when he goes into the mall. Marshal mathers before he was famous, he gets followed.
This is a correct take.
 
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Beggs the question, can skin color, race, religion, etc. be a part of a profile based on good police work just as height, weight, clothing, etc?

Not the sole criteria but part of an overall picture?

Basically, as a society are we not allowed to use some common sense? Or does political correctness now rule the day which means common sense it literally dead. Sad what a thought provoking question you pose, at one time it was not thought provoking. Our enemies know this is an area as Americans we are now weak and can be used to destroy us from within the inside. We will give them the keys to our own destruction but at least we will preserve the rights of our enemies who want us dead before those who want to live in peace.
If 180 million Muslims are as bad as you say, they shouldn't have such a hard time holding Mosul.

If there is one thing we should have learned by now, picking up a gun isn't really an effective way of combating ideology.

Do you have one example of defeating an ideology that is sworn to killing its enemies and is killing its enemies that was defeated peacefully without giving up and surrendering?
 
If 180 million Muslims are as bad as you say, they shouldn't have such a hard time holding Mosul.

If there is one thing we should have learned by now, picking up a gun isn't really an effective way of combating ideology.


Yea so they aren't all in Mosul but the group that is there has made hell on earth for a large swath of our land mass. It's real easy to hypothetically spare Muslim profiling while you aren't watching your wife and daughter be raped to death right before you are thrown in a shallow grave with your neighbors and shot to hell. I bet Muslims in Mosul would love for the world to profile Muslims to separate the killers from the rest.
 
Do you have one example of defeating an ideology that is sworn to killing its enemies and is killing its enemies that was defeated peacefully without giving up and surrendering?
I do have an example of 15 years of bombing and shooting making an ideology stronger and widespread.
 
Yea so they aren't all in Mosul but the group that is there has made hell on earth for a large swath of our land mass. It's real easy to hypothetically spare Muslim profiling while you aren't watching your wife and daughter be raped to death right before you are thrown in a shallow grave with your neighbors and shot to hell. I bet Muslims in Mosul would love for the world to profile Muslims to separate the killers from the rest.
Either way it is closer to 1% than 10%.
Your theory that people in Mosul are being raped and killed because we haven't done enough profiling is interesting. I'll look in to it.
 
I do have an example of 15 years of bombing and shooting making an ideology stronger and widespread.

If we had not pulled out and finished the job this problem would not exist today. In the history of mankind you can not give one example? But 15 years of managing a war poorly trumps the history of mankind?
 
This is a correct take.


and this is what police do. It might not be on paper but two weeks on the job you pretty much know who is more likely to be doing something nefarious. The fact that we have made the police into some negro round up rodeo is dishonest. Poor neighborhoods have more crime regardless of race.

If there has been a racial comparison between poor uneducated whites and blacks I haven't seen one. We can argue all day why such a large percentage of blacks live in poor neighborhoods. Yes I believe it is based on past racism. The term blockbuster comes to mind.
 
If we had not pulled out and finished the job this problem would not exist today. In the history of mankind you can not give one example? But 15 years of managing a war poorly trumps the history of mankind?
If ifs and buts were candy and nuts. Please give an example of your strategy working.
 
Good I'm glad you know for sure. If you are going to go with this strong opinion there is the pesky item of proof and data.
You are the only one who can pull percentages out of your ass?
If there were 180 million Muslims assaulting and murdering for Islam I think we would know.
 
If ifs and buts were candy and nuts. Please give an example of your strategy working.

Here is how you win wars...posted this last week.....
February 22, 2017
How to Win Wars
By Chet Richards

Viet Nam: a war won on the battlefield but lost in Congress. Viet Nam is a melancholy episode in a long string of modern strategic failures that continue to plague us. Something is wrong with our current thinking about war.

It has become fashionable in academic circles to talk about "counterfactual history." This is just a fancy way of formalizing the alternate history theme of a great many science fiction stories. It is basically a what-if speculation on what the world would be like if a particular historical event had turned out differently. For example, what if Stonewall Jackson had not been killed, with Lee therefore winning at Gettysburg?

Of course, history is as it is. One cannot know what an alternate history really might have been like.

Actually, that is not quite the case. We do have real counterfactual demonstrations of historical outcomes. The recent history of the United States provides such examples.

Consider the following seven wars: Germany, Japan, Korea, Viet Nam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya. Three long-term successes and four failures. Seven counterfactual experiments with two diametrically opposite outcomes.

These experimental demonstrations do not seem to fit Colin Powell's Doctrine for War Decision:

  1. Is a vital national security interest threatened?
  2. Do we have a clear attainable objective?
  3. Have the risks and cost been fully and frankly analyzed?
  4. Have all other nonviolent policy means been fully exhausted?
  5. Is there a plausible exit strategy to avoid endless entanglement?
  6. Have the consequences of our action been fully considered?
  7. Is the action supported by the American people?
  8. Do we have genuine broad international support?
Of course, Colin Powell's record of wisdom is not perfect. He talked President George H.W. Bush into suspending the First Gulf War after a symbolic one hundred hours. No war symbolism, please! Finish the job. Many recognized that this premature suspension of combat would inevitably lead to a second Gulf war. And so it transpired.

Nevertheless, three of Powell's dictums are obviously correct. These are the first, second, and seventh. The rest provide useless, or even flat wrong, advice.

The essential three points involve long-term national survival and not something we have much to say about. The Second World War and the Korean War were forced upon us. We had no choice in the matter. These were defensive wars. Two of them involved immediate national survival. The Korean war was a serious threat to the long-term survival of America. Our objective in these wars was simply the permanent defeat of the enemy. In these wars, the objective was obvious to Americans right from the start. Any cost necessary to achieve total victory would be borne.

The Korean War required presidential leadership to explain the war's significance and long-term objective: stop Communist aggression. Americans accepted the reason but required the war to be won as expeditiously as possible.

Counterfactually, we have two radically different outcomes of these various wars. Some of the wars produced permanent victory; other wars produced defeat and chaos. Why the difference? In three cases, we stayed after the fighting was done. We still have military forces in Germany, Japan, and South Korea. In the other four cases, we immediately left (or are leaving) the arena after the full combat victory. The result has been instability and the resumption of conflict even before our withdrawal.

We stayed after the fighting was done. Why does this make the difference? Any nation that has been a battleground is in a state of chaos. Its native civil institutions have failed or been obliterated. Leadership is lacking. Crime is rampant. Trust is broken. There is widespread physical destruction, with ordinary civil services badly disrupted. The situation is a mess.

Furthermore, declaring an exit date, as we did in Iraq and Afghanistan, is a declaration that we have lost the war. Our enemy needs only to wait us out to win.

In order for the society to re-establish itself, a scaffolding of security and stability is required. That requires us. We stay, however long it takes, until the new society can stand, securely, on its own. Powell is wrong. There must not be an exit strategy. Our entanglement must be endless. In the course of time, the battleground nation matures and becomes strong, and our entanglement changes its nature from a supporting and protective scaffold to friendship and alliance, as it has in Japan, Germany, and Korea.

Is this colonialism? Call it what you like. In reality, it is simple pragmatism and wisdom. Our constitutional philosophy has little room for real colonialism. Nonetheless, we must look after the survival and prosperity interests of the United States first and last and always. If this means foreign occupation for an extended time, so be it. Occupation is not something we like to do. Historically, we have not engaged in forced occupation for long periods. The Filipinos are free. Cuba has long had its independence. Various other Central American countries we once occupied are independent. Japan, Germany, and South Korea are allies where we are invited guests for mutual defense.

What about Powell's other points? Eliminate the first and eighth points, and the remainder smack of preparation for a war of aggression. They could have guided Germany's or Japan's war plan in the 1930s. God forbid!

There are key messages that we take from this.

First, go to war only when the national security is clearly threatened. War should be a response only to foreign aggression that threatens our survival or our key national interests.

Second, win decisively and as quickly as possible. Victory means the enemy no longer exists. As a corollary to swift victory, accept that there will be innocent casualties. Minimize these, but make sure everyone understands that the aggressor enemy has the real responsibility for any civilian casualties.

Third, make sure the American people fully understand, and continue to understand, why we fight, and why their sacrifice in this war is essential. Leadership is the key to success.

Finally, stay until we no longer need stay.
 
Here is how you win wars...posted this last week.....
February 22, 2017
How to Win Wars
By Chet Richards

Viet Nam: a war won on the battlefield but lost in Congress. Viet Nam is a melancholy episode in a long string of modern strategic failures that continue to plague us. Something is wrong with our current thinking about war.

It has become fashionable in academic circles to talk about "counterfactual history." This is just a fancy way of formalizing the alternate history theme of a great many science fiction stories. It is basically a what-if speculation on what the world would be like if a particular historical event had turned out differently. For example, what if Stonewall Jackson had not been killed, with Lee therefore winning at Gettysburg?

Of course, history is as it is. One cannot know what an alternate history really might have been like.

Actually, that is not quite the case. We do have real counterfactual demonstrations of historical outcomes. The recent history of the United States provides such examples.

Consider the following seven wars: Germany, Japan, Korea, Viet Nam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya. Three long-term successes and four failures. Seven counterfactual experiments with two diametrically opposite outcomes.

These experimental demonstrations do not seem to fit Colin Powell's Doctrine for War Decision:

  1. Is a vital national security interest threatened?
  2. Do we have a clear attainable objective?
  3. Have the risks and cost been fully and frankly analyzed?
  4. Have all other nonviolent policy means been fully exhausted?
  5. Is there a plausible exit strategy to avoid endless entanglement?
  6. Have the consequences of our action been fully considered?
  7. Is the action supported by the American people?
  8. Do we have genuine broad international support?
Of course, Colin Powell's record of wisdom is not perfect. He talked President George H.W. Bush into suspending the First Gulf War after a symbolic one hundred hours. No war symbolism, please! Finish the job. Many recognized that this premature suspension of combat would inevitably lead to a second Gulf war. And so it transpired.

Nevertheless, three of Powell's dictums are obviously correct. These are the first, second, and seventh. The rest provide useless, or even flat wrong, advice.

The essential three points involve long-term national survival and not something we have much to say about. The Second World War and the Korean War were forced upon us. We had no choice in the matter. These were defensive wars. Two of them involved immediate national survival. The Korean war was a serious threat to the long-term survival of America. Our objective in these wars was simply the permanent defeat of the enemy. In these wars, the objective was obvious to Americans right from the start. Any cost necessary to achieve total victory would be borne.

The Korean War required presidential leadership to explain the war's significance and long-term objective: stop Communist aggression. Americans accepted the reason but required the war to be won as expeditiously as possible.

Counterfactually, we have two radically different outcomes of these various wars. Some of the wars produced permanent victory; other wars produced defeat and chaos. Why the difference? In three cases, we stayed after the fighting was done. We still have military forces in Germany, Japan, and South Korea. In the other four cases, we immediately left (or are leaving) the arena after the full combat victory. The result has been instability and the resumption of conflict even before our withdrawal.

We stayed after the fighting was done. Why does this make the difference? Any nation that has been a battleground is in a state of chaos. Its native civil institutions have failed or been obliterated. Leadership is lacking. Crime is rampant. Trust is broken. There is widespread physical destruction, with ordinary civil services badly disrupted. The situation is a mess.

Furthermore, declaring an exit date, as we did in Iraq and Afghanistan, is a declaration that we have lost the war. Our enemy needs only to wait us out to win.

In order for the society to re-establish itself, a scaffolding of security and stability is required. That requires us. We stay, however long it takes, until the new society can stand, securely, on its own. Powell is wrong. There must not be an exit strategy. Our entanglement must be endless. In the course of time, the battleground nation matures and becomes strong, and our entanglement changes its nature from a supporting and protective scaffold to friendship and alliance, as it has in Japan, Germany, and Korea.

Is this colonialism? Call it what you like. In reality, it is simple pragmatism and wisdom. Our constitutional philosophy has little room for real colonialism. Nonetheless, we must look after the survival and prosperity interests of the United States first and last and always. If this means foreign occupation for an extended time, so be it. Occupation is not something we like to do. Historically, we have not engaged in forced occupation for long periods. The Filipinos are free. Cuba has long had its independence. Various other Central American countries we once occupied are independent. Japan, Germany, and South Korea are allies where we are invited guests for mutual defense.

What about Powell's other points? Eliminate the first and eighth points, and the remainder smack of preparation for a war of aggression. They could have guided Germany's or Japan's war plan in the 1930s. God forbid!

There are key messages that we take from this.

First, go to war only when the national security is clearly threatened. War should be a response only to foreign aggression that threatens our survival or our key national interests.

Second, win decisively and as quickly as possible. Victory means the enemy no longer exists. As a corollary to swift victory, accept that there will be innocent casualties. Minimize these, but make sure everyone understands that the aggressor enemy has the real responsibility for any civilian casualties.

Third, make sure the American people fully understand, and continue to understand, why we fight, and why their sacrifice in this war is essential. Leadership is the key to success.

Finally, stay until we no longer need stay.
If only Chet Richards led our nation, our glory would be endless.
 
Well, I guess you are smarter than everyone, when are you running? You seem to have all the answers.
You are confusing me with Chet. Chet is the greatest military mind since Alexander.
 
I will definitely concede that bombs and guns are very effective at pacifying nation states.

We know exactly who the enemy is, where they live, how they become radicalized. We know we would rather fight them in their country and not ours. We know if we protect our borders and vette extremely well perhaps we never have to fight another war in our own country or their country. The answer is prevention, but you want neither prevention or to eliminate our enemies, just a slow painful death of the American dream and security.
 
Beggs the question, can skin color, race, religion, etc. be a part of a profile based on good police work just as height, weight, clothing, etc?

Not the sole criteria but part of an overall picture?

Yes.
 
You are the only one who can pull percentages out of your ass?
If there were 180 million Muslims assaulting and murdering for Islam I think we would know.

I stated I didn't know. You acted like you knew it was closer to 1%. Reread our statements.

I don't think 180 million are actively doing that. I do think there are millions who agree with ridding the world of western culture. I could be wrong it could just be the jv team.
 
I stated I didn't know. You acted like you knew it was closer to 1%. Reread our statements.

I don't think 180 million are actively doing that. I do think there are millions who agree with ridding the world of western culture. I could be wrong it could just be the jv team.
There are millions of Christians who if surveyed would admit to believe sodomy should be punishable by death, who nonetheless wouldn't lift a finger to make it happen.
 
We know exactly who the enemy is, where they live, how they become radicalized. We know we would rather fight them in their country and not ours. We know if we protect our borders and vette extremely well perhaps we never have to fight another war in our own country or their country. The answer is prevention, but you want neither prevention or to eliminate our enemies, just a slow painful death of the American dream and security.
Huh? That's not what I am saying at all. All I am saying is all of your ideas are stupid and counterproductive.
 
Every time I hear someone talking about defeating ISIS I cringe. ISIS can be defeated, but I don't believe it can happen without thousands or even hundreds of thousands of deaths, a great deal of them being of the civilian nature. I guess I just don't feel the same degree of national security threat as others, to the point where I would be OK with the cost. We can benefit, in a sad way, from Europe's mistakes. They are going to be forced into acting much sooner than we will be. As far as I am concerned I am more than happy to let them lead for once.
 
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