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This is really a remarkable time in Muslim history

HighStickHarry

HighStickHarry

MegaPoke is insane
Gold Member
Apr 21, 2006
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Iraqi and Iranian Shias banding together to battle the Sunni ISIS and taking territory. I really think things will be settled after this.

/facetious

That's all this is, just another chapter in their epic battle. The only thing that can get these people to stop beheading each other is a growing percentage of secular progressives. I would love it if they took ours.
 
No really Muslim have been killing each other in the name of god for thousands of years. In that way they're not that different from Christians.
 
Show me the part in the bible that tells a Christian to "kill the infidel".

I'd also like to hear the last time Christians slaughtered another group - whole sale.

This argument always slays me.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
Cowguy,

What do you figure the vast, vast majority of members of the National Socialists Party were - buddhist?

Are you unfamiliar with their motto? God is with Us?

http://www.nobeliefs.com/mementoes.htm

Do you think they were exterminating Jews, Gypsies, Gays, etc. in the name of Muhammed? Or can we take them at their word and at face value that they engaged in the holocaust because they were doing God's work as part of their Christian identity?
 
You're smarter than that Hollywood. The nazis were as Christian as L Ron Hubbard.

This post was edited on 4/4 12:38 PM by Onepokeovertheline
 
The old killing in the name of God slogan is something that atheists and radicals like to throw out there to make themselves feel better about being a nonbeliever or justifying what they're doing. Just like pro choice people convincing themselves that life begins at a certain point beyond conception to make themselves feel better about killing babies.

This post was edited on 4/4 3:25 PM by TPOKE
 
98% of the citizens of Germany at the time of the Nazi's were in fact self-identified as Christian.

And yes, just as numerous of those badges and symbols recognize, the vast majority of what was undertaken in Germany to rid itself of jews, non-christians and other "undesirables" was most certainly done in the name of Christianity.

The notion that you can deny they were Christians, as put forth is a variation of the logical fallacy known as: "No true Scotsman."

The damned motto of the country and there military was "God is with Us"

The 24th point of the Nazi party (their party platform) read as follows: "We demand the freedom of religion in the Reich so long as they do not endanger the position of the state or adversely affect the moral standards of the German race. As such the Party represents a positively Christian position without binding itself to one particular faith." (In other words, the party promised to protect the religious freedom of the people. so long as those people were Christian.)

The treaty "concordant" with the Catholic Church which Hitler signed in 1933 reads in part: "Catholic religious instruction in elementary, senior, secondary and vocational schools constitutes a regular portion of the curriculum, and is to be taught in accordance with the principles of the Catholic Church. In religious instruction, special care will be taken to inculcate patriotic, civic and social consciousness and sense of duty in the spirit of the Christian Faith and the moral code, precisely as in the case of other subjects." (In other words, Church and State were to be combined to a large degree as the Catholic church was obligated to teach nazi based patriotism as part of its educational system.

I think it's largely "denial" that keeps most from accepting that a "Christian" country and it's predominantly Christian populace undertook horrific things, while many Christian leaders of the country continually proclaimed it to be "God's will" and placed a belief that Gad was their side (and backed their actions) played a huge roll in what happened in the Holocaust.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005206

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm


If the identical thing were to happen today, and it was the current Government of Iran who was behind it, I don't think a single person here would hesitate to couple the religious stances of the government of Iran and the overwhelming religious beliefs of a majority of Iranians who participated in such events and put blame on Islam. (And for good reason) Why then can you claim that there is some wide gulf between what that Nazi's and their followers (an overwhelmingly Christian group) did, which they publicly claimed was connected to their religious beliefs and the Christian religion, when they themselves believed to belong to both groups?
 
Good grief, wood. You don't have the first clue what a Christian is. The nazis were a cult, run by insane sociopaths.

Son of Sam said a dog told him to do it.

No one, other than someone with an agenda, would call the nazis a "Christian" organization.

You have to be trolling.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
First - I'm a Christian.

Second - Do you guys remember that time those savage, murdering Muslims used nuclear weapons against a civilian population?
 
Cowguy,

So, you're telling me that German Catholics, Lutherans, are all cultists who revoked their belief in a ChristianGod? All those good little Nazis had left the church and had entirely revoked their belief in their Church, God and Christianity?

Sorry, but you better look at the history of Germany and the Religious beliefs of the people in the 3rd Reich
again.

The notion that all the Nazi party members and those who supported them had left the church and were all part of some nazi style cult is freakin' ridiculous. I am not going to deny that there was a certain neo-pagan faction within the Nazi movement who combined some form of Nordic/Germanic Pagan beliefs, rituals and practices and combined them with Christianity, but
those people made up less than 3% of German society.

The vast majority of Germans identified themselves as being Catholic (31%) or members of mainstream Protestant churches (with the Lutheran Evangelical Church being the largest Protestant denomination) at around 64%. Less than 5% of
Germans identified themselves as being non-members of a Christian Church, but professed a believe in the Christian God.(Inversely, the Nazi party actually put limits on Atheists, for example no one who identified themself as an Atheist could gain membership in the SS, they were automatically disqualified. You had to claim a belief in Christianity or the Neo-Pagan churches to be an SS member.)

I understand whereyou are going with the claim that these people were NOT Christians, but I would say that they certainly believed that they were Christians and claimed that they were acting in concert with their belief in God and the Church. I would say that your stance is drawn on an emotional basis because youcan't bring yourself to believe that a large group of Christians could do such a horrible thing.

But reality and history proves otherwise.

Would you claim that followers of ISIS can be separated from their Islamic beliefs?

Again, the logical fallacy you are committing is known as "No true Scotsman."

Several of the awards shown in my first post on this topic were actually handed out by the churches in Germany and in many instances the churches opened themselves up to host all kinds of Nazi (patriotic) events pushing the Naziagenda. Sorry, this was a predominantly Christian people, doing horrific things in the name of God and no amount of denying it is going to change history.

Just as the fact that it was a primarily a Christian populace around the region/world who rose up to fight the Nazis.
But if we are going to accept that many used their Christian beliefsand principles to fight the Nazi menace, we must also be willing to accept that those on the other side were equally convinced that they were likewise clinging to Christian principles and beliefs for doing what they were doing, no matter how much you or I may believe they were wrong. (Just as you can't
deny that there was a deep chasm between Christians of equally strong belief that were on the "right" and "Christian" side of the slave issue, whether they were pro or anti slavery.)

This post was edited on 4/4 6:36 PM by hollywood
 
Germany was hijacked by a small minority who blamed jews for much of the countries problems.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
I don't remember Hitler running around invoking the name of Jesus Christ as readily as our Muslim friends invoke the name of Allah for their killings. Maybe I was just in one of those poorly taught history classes people are talking about these days.
Do Christians do bad things. Yes. But Christianity does not promote the constant killing of those with different beliefs as Islam does. And spare me the rhetoric that these are extremists and don't represent the true Islamic faith. Sometimes a duck is just duck and we need to call it that.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
Originally posted by squeak:
Germany was hijacked by a small minority who blamed jews for much of the countries problems.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Click to expand...
Hollywood will never let the obvious truth stand in the way for a good opportunity for a liberal lecture.....
 
Of course Christianity doesn't teach us that violence is acceptable.

In fact, it kind of teaches that it never is...

As for Hitler... Of course he wasn't Christian, not in any recognizable form. He claimed to be, but privately wished the German state had some other more suitable religion his regime could promote.

The German people though... Very much a nation full of Christians. The problem always starts when Christians begin idolizing the state.

Martin Luther himself had some very unChristian views about the Jews in Europe, and as big an influence as he had on Christianity worldwide I think it's safe to assume it was even moreso on the universal church (not just Lutheran or Protestant) within Germany.

I think one of the worst possible ways for us to ever establish some kind of lasting peace between the Muslim world and the West is for a bunch of white guys to start picking individual verses out of the Quoran and start applying their own meaning to them with no context. There are some rather rough passages in our own cold Testament that we don't take at face value for instance.
 
Hwood you can't possibly be suggesting that the general population reflected the secret agendas, philosophies and policies of the leadership of the nazi party can you?

That's ridiculous. Hitler and his minions were obsessed with the occult and German tribal legends.

The only pro Christian quotes you'll find from him were while campaigning. Otherwise his severely antChristisn quotes abound and are an easy google search away.

Really disappointing attempt to connect nazi atrocities to Christianity. All those American Christians who died fighting the nazis deserve more respect than to be associated with the evil ideology.

If anything, the nazis remain an example of how bad an idea it is to give up personal freedoms to ideologues. But they reflect poorly on Christians in about the same way Charles Manson reflects poorly on songwriters.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
Do people really believe that it was only a "small minority" of Germans who joined and supported the Nazi party?

I wish my uncle's father was around to talk to you about how many hard core nazi's were around in Berlin (he was a local post office official) and who had turned out to the parades and meetings in droves, had participated in the lootings of the homes of jews around in his neighborhood, had been all too willing informants on anyone they thought a threat to the nazi party and in general had been proud supporters of the war. Berlin falls, and he said the vast majority of them burned their party papers, any uniforms they had and threw away their medals and awards and if asked by the occupying soldiers: they hated the nazis, always had, were so thankful that Hitler had finally been ousted, etc.

This very topic has been documented in several well researched history books, the notion that the vast majority of German citizens were not in support of Hitler and the Nazi's is complete and utter BS! Most of them were in fact complicit in what happened in their country and to their fellow citizens. For the most part those who actually weren't, were themselves victims of the concentration camps (members of Jehovah's Witnesses and 7th Day Adventists are examples of that), in prison or had fled the country when Hitler came to power. The claim it was only a small minority is pretty much based solely on the narrative that the former party members and supporters put forth once they were under ally control. (To quote Sgt Schultz, the typical German claimed: I know nothing, nothing!)

As for Hitler:


"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty
Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work." [Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a
fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded
by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and
summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest
not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian
and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord
at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the
Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight
against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with
deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact
that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As
a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have
the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is
anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is
the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty
to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and
work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only
for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning
and see these men standing in their queues and look into their
pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very
devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two
thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people
are plundered and exposed." - Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich on April 12, 1922

"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of
the Almighty Creator."
"And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his
estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove
those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God."
"What we have to fight for…is the freedom and independence of the
fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission
assigned to it by the Creator." - Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf

"Christianity could not content itself with building up its own
altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the
heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its
apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute
presupposition." - Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf Vol II

"The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost
duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation. It
will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation
has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our
national morality, and the family as the basis of national life" Adolf Hitler public speech Berlin Feb 3, 1933

"Today Christians … stand at the head of [this country]… I pledge
that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy
Christianity .. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian
spirit … We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in
literature, in the theater, and in the press - in short, we want to
burn out the *poison of immorality* which has entered into our whole
life and culture as a result of *liberal excess* during the past …
(few) years." - Adolf Hitler (collected speeches Oxford University Press)

Those are a minuscule smattering of Hitler's speeches and writings were he invokes God and tells the German people that they are doing "God's work" by rousting the Jew and bringing back "morality" to the German society.
 
Are you suggesting we should take Hitler - known sociopath and campaigning politician (redundant, I know) - at his word for what he said during speeches?

Did you also find his clearly anti Christian quoted?
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
Mega,

It's known as "the impact on the reader/listener."

How many televangelist out there to you suspect don't believe a single word they utter (all published for an ulterior motive)?

Does that also mean that their followers don't believe it? All of the priests and ministers in the Catholic and Protestant Churches in Germany who took up the Nazi cause (and they were legion), do you think their words were falling on deaf ears?
Whether or not Hitler believed a single word of it doesn't matter. What does matter is that the people who heard it believed it and took up the cause for those reasons ("God and Country", "Restoration of Morality" etc.) were all part of the plan to find all too willing followers and it succeeded all too well.

Sorry, but again the notion that the vast majority of the German populace were not followers or supporters of Hitler and the Nazi party is a complete fiction, created by the conquered in an effort to avoid punishment or sanctions. No, no - I was not a Nazi, I loved my Jewish neighbors (as allied troops discovered and recovered furnishings and other belongings in their homes, property that was known to have been looted from their former Jewish neighbors.) I wish I could remember or find the book now, but it documented how in one of the towns neighboring a concentration camp, virtually everyone in town, from the mayor down to the dogcatcher denied that they knew the camp was even there. Then in the camp's records they found records of all the people on the payroll, who were assisting in supplying the camp or had prisoners lent to them for various town projects, and there's information about hundreds of the town folks, including the mayor.

It's also ridiculous to claim that the Nazi members and followers in Germany were somehow "Not" Christians, when some 96% of them at the end of the war identified themselves as Christians.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005206
This post was edited on 4/5 10:48 AM by hollywood
 
You are arguing different things dude.

Of course a Western European nation was mostly Christian and yes the nazis stirred up their nationalism. The rank and file German did not know about or participate in nazi atrocities. You still aren't msking a clear connection to religion here - just sociology.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
Originally posted by hollywood:

Sorry, but again the notion that the vast majority of the German populace were not followers or supporters of Hitler and the Nazi party is a complete fiction, created by the conquered in an effort to avoid punishment or sanctions. No, no - I was not a Nazi, I loved my Jewish neighbors (as allied troops discovered and recovered furnishings and other belongings in their homes, property that was known to have been looted from their former Jewish neighbors.) I wish I could remember or find the book now, but it documented how in one of the towns neighboring a concentration camp, virtually everyone in town, from the mayor down to the dogcatcher denied that they knew the camp was even there. Then in the camp's records they found records of all the people on the payroll, who were assisting in supplying the camp or had prisoners lent to them for various town projects, and there's information about hundreds of the town folks, including the mayor.


This post was edited on 4/5 10:48 AM by hollywood
Click to expand...
Hitler's Willing Executioner's by Goldhagen?
 
I laughed at the liberal lecture comment.

Truly spot on.
 
squeak,

Did you not notice that the article I submitted tying Christianity to the Nazis and the Holocaust came DIRECTLY from the Holocaust Museum?

So I really don't know what your point is by your comment.
 
As you walk through the Holocaust Museum it tells the story of how Germany went from post-WWI to Hitler's rising and then how it all ended. It explains how a small minority rose to power by essentially high jacking the country and killing anyone who spoke out against it. The extermination of the Jews was not a religious thing, but rather they were blamed for much of the country's economic problems. Most Germans were not Nazis but they did nothing to get in Hitler's way.

I'm sure you find books to support any belief/opinion you have. The story the Museum tells is much different than the one you're telling.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
Just in case you missed it, and several of you obviously did: By the same "facts" that I condemn "Christians" in Germany who all too willing threw their lot in with the Nazis, I also give credit to the Christians in the other nations who stood steadfast in their opposition to the Nazis and the many who gave their life in order to defeat that sadistic and murderous lot. But in both instances, most of the Christians (on either side) believed that they were answering a higher calling and serving God.

This is a subject in history of which I have studied for a long time. The William Burke quote: "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing" is apropos of how Hitler and the Nazi's got power and how they got so many "Good/Christian" people to sign on board. Part of that success was by invoking God as the reason for the nazi's actions and getting the leadership of the Church on board with that message. Again, standing in hundreds of thousands of pulpits in Germany were ministers and priests who encouraged their parishioners to stand with the Nazis, join the Nazi party - all as if they were acting in a holy capacity with the support of God and the Church. How they (nazis) managed to do that is a fascinating topic to me and has been since I was probably 13-14 yrs old.

Part of the reason I believe the Nazi's to have been so successful is that they had hundreds upon hundreds of years of European history where the "Church" was virtually at war with the Jews. The Pograms, inquisition and general hostility in the form of discrimination by Christians against Jews was hardly something new or novel to the German people. In the USA, our founding fathers undertook the formation of the country to basically prevent that sort of thing from happening by separating church from state. (Madison, Jefferson and Adams all have significant writings on this very topic)

Mega, the book that Anodyne referenced (Hitler's Willing Executioners, Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust) is a very good starting point to toss out the myth that the "average" German had nothing to do with the holocaust and weren't complicit. It's the story of a small reserve police battalion, primarily made up of "non-combat" ready types, who were too old, physically unfit or had other reasons for not being able to serve in the regular army. The Reserve Police Battalion 101 (one of dozens) alone was determined to have participated in killing at least 83,000 Jews and other "undesirables."

From their letters and writings these "ordinary" Germans had no qualms about participating in "Jew Hunts" where they actually went en masse into the forested areas and hunted/gunned down Jews and others who were hiding from the Nazis for virtual sport. These weren't hardened SS troops, these were the store owners, the butchers/bakers , the second hand furniture dealers, the typical "man on the street" that could be found in any German town.

I honestly think you are way underestimating how many Germans DID know about the holocaust, how many of them supported it, and how many were involved directly in it. Of course they were all going to deny it in the aftermath, after all, it would be possible they could find themselves swinging by a rope if they didn't deny their involvement.

I would also suggest that you look at the body of work produced by Anna Rosmus who as a teenager as part of an essay assignment of her school began checking her town's participation in numerous prisons and smaller concentration/worker camps in the area. She uncovered that many of the town's leaders (in the 60's/70's) were part of the contingent directly involved and when she began tracing many of the town's wealthiest individuals, she discovered that most of them had made their fortunes contracting with the nazis to build these camps, or had seized (stolen) the property of many jews in the area. There is a semi-fictional film on her made back in the 80's titled "The Nasty Girl." Between these two books, I think it would challenge you line of thinking about just how involved the German public was with the multitude of "sins" committed by the Nazis.


This post was edited on 4/5 12:39 PM by hollywood
 
Kudos to HSH for sparking a healthy debate.

I just wish he wouldn't drop in for a couple of threads then leave for a month.

Come back, Hairy!
 
"I honestly think you are way underestimating how many Germans DID know about the holocaust, how many of them supported it, and how many were involved directly in it. Of course they were all going to deny it in the aftermath, after all, it would be possible they could find themselves swinging by a rope if they didn't deny their involvement."

They would have been swinging by a rope had they spoke out against the Nazis. And what could they do to stop it? They had no guns. They were taken years before by their gov't. Some did speak out and fight back but they were killed.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
The notion that the nazi's confiscated anyone's guns other than the jews is pure myth.

http://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4029&context=flr

Squeak, yes historically there were small groups of Christians who opposed the Nazis and who suffered. But for everyone of them, there seemed to be four or five who were completely on-board with the Nazi philosophy.

Just looking at the Catholic church, Pope Pius's dealings with Mussolini, where he praised Mussolini as a good Christian a Good Catholic and his belief that Mussolini had been put into power by divine intervention (a man sent by Providence, declared the Pope publicly). In exchange, after 20+ years of Italy being primarily a secular society, Mussolini had crosses put into all the classrooms and schools and in government buildings and court rooms. In communications between the Pope and Mussolini, the Pope told Mussolini directly that the church had long been in need of "reigning in the children of Israel" and take preventive measures against their evil-doing. Mussolini advised Hitler and his cronies how to get the support of the Pope and the Catholic church by giving preferential tax treatment and providing free train travel to priests. He boasted that he now had the Vatican so in his pocket, that the Vatican even declared Italy's invasion of (which included several publicly known instances of genocide) a "Holy War."

In Germany, there was a group of Catholic Bishops who were completely enamoured of the Nazi party, that they took to wearing brown cassock's the same shade as the Nazi party's "brown-shirts." They came to be known as the "Brown Bishops" and routinely promoted the rise of Hitler, and like the Mullahs of today, issued all kinds of public pronouncements on the Church's positions on any number of issues, ranging from "morality" in German culture, to the invasion of Poland, which one member of the group, Bishop Bertram declared to be a "Holy War" and of equal importance as the Crusades. The Brown Bishops, even ordered the priests under their control to withhold communion from anyone in their churches who did not support the Nazi party and the war effort. These guys continuously spread propaganda claiming Hitler and the Nazi's and God's Will were one and the same. They weren't forced by anyone to do this, they enjoyed their role.

When Germany invaded Austria, the head of the Catholic issued proclamations welcoming the Germans. In Slovakia, the man who rose to power (appointed by Hitler) was known as Tiso. In addition to being a fairly popular politician, Tiso was also a very well known Catholic Priest.

When you get into the actions of the Protestant Churches operating in Germany and many of their leadership and clergy's messages in support of Hitler and the Nazis and claiming the mantle of God's Will, you will find it actually gets worse than what was going on within the German Catholic Church.
 
Originally posted by Renegade Bullet:
Kudos to HSH for sparking a healthy debate.

I just wish he wouldn't drop in for a couple of threads then leave for a month.

Come back, Hairy!
Click to expand...
If I post too much I annoy myself. I like to watch everybody beat each other up more than I like watching my opinions get analyzed.
 
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