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The tentacles of political belief...

CBradSmith

MegaPoke is insane
Gold Member
Sep 21, 2005
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Seem to extend everywhere.

UK under pressure to cancel State visit. Why? Pressure from whom?

It seems one "side" in all of the this seems willing to escalate reaction to a point that is simply not sustainable without something catastrophic occurring.

Meaning...for them...there is no compromise, there is no dialogue.

My question is, how do you govern that type?
What is the range of outcomes that project from how people are behaving currently?
 
Seem to extend everywhere.

UK under pressure to cancel State visit. Why? Pressure from whom?

It seems one "side" in all of the this seems willing to escalate reaction to a point that is simply not sustainable without something catastrophic occurring.

Meaning...for them...there is no compromise, there is no dialogue.

My question is, how do you govern that type?
What is the range of outcomes that project from how people are behaving currently?

Bad blood--it's the main weakness with our form of government.

It's why Franklin said, "We're leaving you a republic if you can keep it."
 
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You start making examples of these people, just like in the old days, but without the killing. Start catching some of these misfit pricks and locking them up. You want to make a change, well start with yourself (not speaking directly to you, of course), but don't cry foul when the wolf bites back for your lack of tolerance and compromise.
 
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It's the main weakness with our form of government.

It's why Franklin said, "We're leaving you a republic if you can keep it."

Glad you responded Cup. You seem moderate, now, compared to some of the raving lunacy going on.

I can't remember who said it, @syskatine , @07pilt , someone else? But they implied that they believe there is currently a large amount of infighting on the left side of the political Spectrum. Do you believe that to be true? If so, what are some things you take issue with?
 
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giphy.gif
 

I read this, and while I hate to be judgemental, I think I see the problem with the Dem perspective:

Music Major, Artist, 3 community organizers, New York Art worker, Mom who focuses on Neighborhood inclusion, PR Specialist.

No offense, but these careers (and the people that align to them) aren't exactly the forgotten "white, working class".

He did have a couple of friends who were small business owners and a physical therapist, but nothing in their twitter replies actually ties them to being Dems. In fact, their specific responses were so generic, I can show you places on this board where I've said the same thing verbatim.

Justin
 
If you're president Trump, you identify like-minded leaders around the world in business and government. They're out there. Some of these people we have genuine disagreements with, but we may be able to reach a common ground in fighting globalists if nothing else. Putin is such a leader. You coordinate as much as possible to further the interest of your individual nation-states, and you do this over a long period of time in a way that squeezes out and weakens those who seek to diminish individual autonomy.
 
I read this, and while I hate to be judgemental, I think I see the problem with the Dem perspective:

Music Major, Artist, 3 community organizers, New York Art worker, Mom who focuses on Neighborhood inclusion, PR Specialist.

No offense, but these careers (and the people that align to them) aren't exactly the forgotten "white, working class".

He did have a couple of friends who were small business owners and a physical therapist, but nothing in their twitter replies actually ties them to being Dems. In fact, their specific responses were so generic, I can show you places on this board where I've said the same thing verbatim.

Justin
This just in, social network of the author of an open letter to the Kentucky Democratic Party on the website medium.com is largely composed of people in "artistic" professions.
 
Glad you responded Cup. You seem moderate, now, compared to some of the raving lunacy going on.

I can't remember who said it, @syskatine , @07pilt , someone else? But they implied that they believe there is currently a large amount of infighting on the left side of the political Spectrum. Do you believe that to be true? If so, what are some things you take issue with?


I don't know if its infighting yet, but I believe there is a split. A very loud and annoying minority has gone off the rails and I think the moderates are torn on whether to go against them, ignore them, or join them.

You saw the same thing on the right. Over the past 8 years a chunk of the right has gone off the rails to loony territory too.... but the party as a whole seems to be ok with tagging along (after some initial resistance right after the primaries) since the loonies won the election.

Unfortunately, I think the Dems will do what the Republicans did and adopt the loonies. Loonies are loony but they are passionate. Trump (or his strategists) figured this out and stoked the fires by being as far out there as he could. They figured out its easier to get people who don't usually vote to do so by being over the top with the rhetoric, than it is to get moderate dems to switch. Its why instead of returning to the center after the primaries like everyone figured...he became even more obnoxious. Bernie's loonies were passionate, and even though outnumbered they gave Hillary's more moderate....but very not passionate base, a scare.
 
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Seem to extend everywhere.

UK under pressure to cancel State visit. Why? Pressure from whom?

It seems one "side" in all of the this seems willing to escalate reaction to a point that is simply not sustainable without something catastrophic occurring.

Meaning...for them...there is no compromise, there is no dialogue.

My question is, how do you govern that type?
What is the range of outcomes that project from how people are behaving currently?

you govern that type by democratic election and policy implementation by whatever the rule of law dictates

range of outcomes are determined by the next election



there's a certain amount of protester type folks be it occupy wall street, westboro church fracing, keystone pipeline, black lives matter ou football against SAE, or this immigration bunch who are gonna protest no matter who is in the white house

right now these folks are getting the press because the media is making money off of it and trump is new

i don't see this evolving into vietnam war divisiveness

conservative bastard nixon brought us carter who pussified america who brought us reagan
it's how things move

i look at trump as our reagan who knows what the next round brings i think it moves to moderation but people are done with obama type give the house away government for a good long while
 
I don't know if its infighting yet, but I believe there is a split. A very loud and annoying minority has gone off the rails and I think the moderates are torn on whether to go against them, ignore them, or join them.

You saw the same thing on the right. Over the past 8 years a chunk of the right has gone off the rails to loony territory too.... but the party as a whole seems to be ok with tagging along (after some initial resistance right after the primaries) since the loonies won the election.

Unfortunately, I think the Dems will do what the Republicans did and adopt the loonies. Loonies are loony but they are passionate. Trump (or his strategists) figured this out and stoked the fires by being as far out there as he could. They figured out its easier to get people who don't usually vote to do so by being over the top with the rhetoric, than it is to get moderate dems to switch. Its why instead of returning to the center after the primaries like everyone figured...he became even more obnoxious. Bernie's loonies were passionate, and even though outnumbered they gave Hillary's more moderate....but very not passionate base, a scare.

Trump's policies on jobs, taxation, security, foreign policy, secure borders, pro life, etc.....are not lunatic policies. He was sold by the Dems as a lunatic loser to be laughed at and joked about and to brag how big Hillary was going to kill this joke of a nominee. But his policies were far better than 4 more years of the same bad policies. The joke ended up on the Dems and it was born of arrogance and patting themselves on the back as progressives that knows what is best for everyone. Some on the left demonized Trump as a nazi, etc.....the only lunatics acting out right now is on the left. Bernie I believe was a good person and a man worth voting for, but his policies were way too socialistic for me. I never once have attacked Bernie on a personal level. Hillary? I think she is corrupt, and I sided with Trump on all major policy issues. Trump can come off as an arrogant prick sometimes but I do not care, I voted him in to do exactly what he is doing.

Trump is upsetting both Dems and Reps, that to me is a start to eliminating political correctness that has paralyzed this country in to getting nothing done in fear of hurting people's feelings and in my opinion is going to push both the Dems and Reps to a more moderate government because the extreme of either side is going to hurt. Trump EO's are not the product of lunacy, but the desires of a large chunk of this country that felt it was imperative for major change in Washington. The christian extreme right did not win and neither did the tea party extremists.

The Dems need to get the rioters out of the streets, not boycott inaugurations, and figure out a way to work with this President where their interests are similar, this President might be able to get the Reps to work with the Dems on some issues, that would be a start to healing the rift between the parties. It would be great if both sides of the aisle would remember we are all Americans. When was the last time Dems and Reps truly worked together to put forward great legislation that was passed handidly and supported by both parties? Trump is not partisan politics, if that is lunacy give me more.
 
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Glad you responded Cup. You seem moderate, now, compared to some of the raving lunacy going on.

I can't remember who said it, @syskatine , @07pilt , someone else? But they implied that they believe there is currently a large amount of infighting on the left side of the political Spectrum. Do you believe that to be true? If so, what are some things you take issue with?

Sure there's some infighting going on. Happens when you lose. Most of the millions who marched are in no mood to compromise--except with each other. Their unrest is aimed squarely at Trump. Their new favorite phrase is "make nasty", the word the got from Trump. Many were Bernies, many supported her. But they're all marching lockstep now.

Stupidly on their part a lot of them smugly sat this one out. They had no idea they might lose. And now they are not happy. Democrat women I know feel disrespected by this President, long before he took office. These protests are going to continue.

Personally I'm all for giving the newly elected POTUS a chance--(in much the same way Republicans supported Obama.)

But I have no issue whatsoever with civil disobedience. (I just re-read Letter From a Birmingham jail) It's a God-given right.: "..the right of the people peaceably to assemble and petition the government for a redress of grievances...shall not be infringed."

Trump speaks directly to the people through Twitter. The people use the 1st Amendment to speak directly to Trump. He's a businessman. Numbers are very important to him. He is motivated by large masses of Americans--the bigger the assembly the better. It's a language he understands. It's how he got elected.

He understands their language--speaking right past the media and lawmakers. Language of Congress? Not much. He goes right over their heads.

So the Democratic rift is between the people and the powerful. Remember the Tea Party...
 
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They figured out its easier to get people who don't usually vote to do so by being over the top with the rhetoric, than it is to get moderate dems to switch.

The evidence of who voted for Trump in the previously blue, rust belt states don't back this up. Numerous counties that had previously gone Obama, most for both election cycles and many by wide margins, flipped to Trump.
 
Sure there's some infighting going on. Happens when you lose. Most of the millions who marched are in no mood to compromise--except with each other. Their unrest is aimed squarely at Trump. Their new favorite phrase is "make nasty", the word the got from Trump. Many were Bernies, many supported her. But they're all marching lockstep now.

Stupidly on their part a lot of them smugly sat this one out. They had no idea they might lose. And now they are not happy. Democrat women I know feel disrespected by this President, long before he took office. These protests are going to continue.

Personally I'm all for giving the newly elected POTUS a chance--(in much the same way Republicans supported Obama.)

But I have no issue whatsoever with civil disobedience. (I just re-read Letter From a Birmingham jail) It's a God-given right.: "..the right of the people peaceably to assemble and petition the government for a redress of grievances...shall not be infringed."

Trump speaks directly to the people through Twitter. The people use the 1st Amendment to speak directly to Trump. He's a businessman. Numbers are very important to him. He is motivated by large masses of Americans--the bigger the assembly the better. It's a language he understands. It's how he got elected.

He understands their language--speaking right past the media and lawmakers. Language of Congress? Not much. He goes right over their heads.

So the Democratic rift is between the people and the powerful. Remember the Tea Party...

You are avoiding the spirit of the question, possibly purposefully.

Are you walking "lockstep" with looters, rioters, people starting fights with fellow citizens simply because of who they voted for...did you wear a Styrofoam vagina around your head last weekend?

Did you see a lot of that with the Tea party?
Remember all the fights?
Remember the nastiness?
Remember that bunch going out of their way to tear down fellow citizens, intimidate them, or destroy public property?

Your recounting of events is largely revisionist, and I suppose you're attempting to normalize the behavior currently going on.

"Their unrest is aimed squarely at Trump." You need to rethink how you attempt to tell a story.

Why are "Democrat women offended?" Real question.

Lastly, voters weren't "stupid," as you call them, they demonstrated a preference...their preference. Some were apathetic about Hillary. Some flipped to Trump believing that he better spoke to their priorities.

Thanks for your response. It's been...enlightening.
 
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I don't know if its infighting yet, but I believe there is a split. A very loud and annoying minority has gone off the rails and I think the moderates are torn on whether to go against them, ignore them, or join them.

You saw the same thing on the right. Over the past 8 years a chunk of the right has gone off the rails to loony territory too.... but the party as a whole seems to be ok with tagging along (after some initial resistance right after the primaries) since the loonies won the election.

Unfortunately, I think the Dems will do what the Republicans did and adopt the loonies. Loonies are loony but they are passionate. Trump (or his strategists) figured this out and stoked the fires by being as far out there as he could. They figured out its easier to get people who don't usually vote to do so by being over the top with the rhetoric, than it is to get moderate dems to switch. Its why instead of returning to the center after the primaries like everyone figured...he became even more obnoxious. Bernie's loonies were passionate, and even though outnumbered they gave Hillary's more moderate....but very not passionate base, a scare.

Trump's policies on jobs, taxation, security, foreign policy, secure borders, pro life, etc.....are not lunatic policies. He was sold by the Dems as a lunatic loser to be laughed at and joked about and to brag how big Hillary was going to kill this joke of a nominee. But his policies were far better than 4 more years of the same bad policies. The joke ended up on the Dems and it was born of arrogance and patting themselves on the back as progressives that knows what is best for eveveryone. Some on the left demonized Trump as a nazi, etc.....the only lunatics acting out right now is on the left. Bernie I believe was a good person and a man worth voting for, but his policies were way too socialistic for me. I never once have attacked Bernie on a personal level. Hillary? I think she is corrupt, and I sided with Trump on all major policy issues. Trump can come off as an arrogant prick sometimes but I do not care, I voted him in to do exactly what he is doing.

Trump is upsetting both Dems and Reps, that to me is a start to eliminating political correctness that has paralyzed this country in to getting nothing done in fear of hurting people's feelings and in my opinion is going to push both the Dems and Reps to a more moderate government because the extreme of either side is going to hurt. Trump EO's are not the product of lunacy, but the desires of a large chunk of this country that felt it was imperative for major change in Washington. The christian extreme right did not win and neither did the tea party extremists.

The Dems need to get the rioters out of the streets, not boycott inaugurations, and figure out a way to work with this President where their interests are similar, this President might be able to get the Reps to work with the Dems on some issues, that would be a start to healing the rift between the parties. It would be great if both sides of the aisle would remember we are all Americans. When was the last time Dems and Reps truly worked together to put forward great legislation that was passed handidly and supported by both parties? Trump is not partisan politics, if that is lunacy give me more.

I've just had a second to breeze through that, but great response. I'll go through it after we stomp ou.
 
The evidence of who voted for Trump in the previously blue, rust belt states don't back this up. Numerous counties that had previously gone Obama, most for both election cycles and many by wide margins, flipped to Trump.

Agreed. Dig into the data cowpoke and you will find people flipping from obama and people leaving that question blank are the reasons trump won. It was not racists or sexists that came out of the woodwork. That is a false narrative.
 
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Trump's policies on jobs, taxation, security, foreign policy, secure borders, pro life, etc.....are not lunatic policies. He was sold by the Dems as a lunatic loser to be laughed at and joked about and to brag how big Hillary was going to kill this joke of a nominee. But his policies were far better than 4 more years of the same bad policies. The joke ended up on the Dems and it was born of arrogance and patting themselves on the back as progressives that knows what is best for everyone. Some on the left demonized Trump as a nazi, etc.....the only lunatics acting out right now is on the left. Bernie I believe was a good person and a man worth voting for, but his policies were way too socialistic for me. I never once have attacked Bernie on a personal level. Hillary? I think she is corrupt, and I sided with Trump on all major policy issues. Trump can come off as an arrogant prick sometimes but I do not care, I voted him in to do exactly what he is doing.

Trump is upsetting both Dems and Reps, that to me is a start to eliminating political correctness that has paralyzed this country in to getting nothing done in fear of hurting people's feelings and in my opinion is going to push both the Dems and Reps to a more moderate government because the extreme of either side is going to hurt. Trump EO's are not the product of lunacy, but the desires of a large chunk of this country that felt it was imperative for major change in Washington. The christian extreme right did not win and neither did the tea party extremists.

The Dems need to get the rioters out of the streets, not boycott inaugurations, and figure out a way to work with this President where their interests are similar, this President might be able to get the Reps to work with the Dems on some issues, that would be a start to healing the rift between the parties. It would be great if both sides of the aisle would remember we are all Americans. When was the last time Dems and Reps truly worked together to put forward great legislation that was passed handidly and supported by both parties? Trump is not partisan politics, if that is lunacy give me more.


"Trump's policies on jobs, taxation, security, foreign policy, secure borders, pro life, etc.....are not lunatic policies."

Agreed, I even like some of his policy ideas. His base policies were not that loonie, but plenty of his rhetoric was. He was a populist to the base Republicans, paid a lot of specific attention to the rust belt, and threw out a ton of loonie over the top crap to whoop up the LCD. Of course Dems painted him as a Lunatic, so did Republicans.... because he acted like a lunatic at times. He, (or Bannon/Conway IMO), played it perfectly. Keep the base with some sound (though never really detailed) policies, and whoop up the fringe with the crazy stuff. When less than 60% of eligible voters bother to vote, you only have to get a few of the fringe to vote, (that usually don't bother go to the polls to vote for guys like Mitt Romney).... that can make a huge difference. Now.... Are Trump and Bannon crackpots, or hateful, or racist? I don't think so. But they will take the votes thank you very much. Bannon has pretty much said that he is fine with this fringe element being a part of the movement because it will fade over time. They are a means to an end.


"Bernie I believe was a good person and a man worth voting for, but his policies were way too socialistic for me. I never once have attacked Bernie on a personal level. Hillary? I think she is corrupt".

Agree on both counts. I always felt like Bernie truly believed in what he was saying, and wanted to do good. His policies were horrendous though. It disturbs me a bit how many believe in his policies. IMO Trump and Hillary are both bad people.

"Trump is upsetting both Dems and Reps, that to me is a start to eliminating political correctness that has paralyzed this country in to getting nothing done in fear of hurting people's feelings and in my opinion is going to push both the Dems and Reps to a more moderate government because the extreme of either side is going to hurt. Trump EO's are not the product of lunacy, but the desires of a large chunk of this country that felt it was imperative for major change in Washington. The Christian extreme right did not win and neither did the tea party extremists."

I disagree with most of this. Like I said in my original post... Trump DID upset Reps for a while, but they have mostly fallen in line with him. A few pipe up here and there but they are just happy to be in power again. Hell look at this board. I'm guessing the majority didn't vote for him in the primaries, but got behind him afterwards. Someone who followed the tea party more closely that I did is going to have to explain the difference between Bannon's alt right and the tea party. The first seems like an evolution of the latter to me. I'm also not sure how the Christian extreme right lost. Granted I don't think Trump gives much of a shite about them, but he has played to that base enough that they believe that "Jesus is finally back in the white house". We'll see how it plays out, but I bet we'll see a push to install a lot of what the Christian right wants to see. Anti abortion legislation, repeal of gay marriage and gay discrimination protection, strikes against Islam as a whole. That will depend on the depth of Bannon's involvement.

"The Dems need to get the rioters out of the streets, not boycott inaugurations, and figure out a way to work with this President where their interests are similar, this President might be able to get the Reps to work with the Dems on some issues, that would be a start to healing the rift between the parties. It would be great if both sides of the aisle would remember we are all Americans. When was the last time Dems and Reps truly worked together to put forward great legislation that was passed handidly and supported by both parties? Trump is not partisan politics, if that is lunacy give me more"

Rioters are scum. They just look for chaos as an excuse to be assholes. Throw the book at them. The boycotts were idiotic and a case of shooting your own toes off. Protesters and marchers...no issue there at all. Its the same thing as the large Trump rallies, people getting fired up about beliefs and making their voices heard. The difference being that the rallies had a center character to rally around, the message could be cheer led so that it made sense, and it was easier to control. The marches and protest have nobody to rally around and nobody to lead the message....so its all over the place and a confusing mess.

Trump working with the Dems? I just don't see that happening. I've seen absolutely nothing that indicates Trump wants to work with Dems on anything. I really, really, really hope I am wrong there as party politics have ruined this country....and it makes no logical sense at all. How can two parties disagree on absolutely everything? I mean every freaking thing that comes along they take opposite sides on even if it has absolutely nothing to do with any of the core values of their party.
 
Agreed. Dig into the data cowpoke and you will find people flipping from obama and people leaving that question blank are the reasons trump won. It was not racists or sexists that came out of the woodwork. That is a false narrative.


I'll try to do that, if you have links, please share. Just because a county flips doesn't mean that individual people flipped. It can simply mean different people bothered to vote. Les than 60% of eligible voters voted. It only takes 2 or 3 out of 100 people that voted for obama to stay home this election, and 2 or 3 who stayed home for Romney, to vote this time, to make a big swing. Thats a 5-6% swing without 1 single voter changing his mind on which party he wants to win.

Now the rust belt may be different due to Trump being pretty specific in his message to auto workers and those who are have some relation to it.
 
"Trump's policies on jobs, taxation, security, foreign policy, secure borders, pro life, etc.....are not lunatic policies."

Agreed, I even like some of his policy ideas. His base policies were not that loonie, but plenty of his rhetoric was. He was a populist to the base Republicans, paid a lot of specific attention to the rust belt, and threw out a ton of loonie over the top crap to whoop up the LCD. Of course Dems painted him as a Lunatic, so did Republicans.... because he acted like a lunatic at times. He, (or Bannon/Conway IMO), played it perfectly. Keep the base with some sound (though never really detailed) policies, and whoop up the fringe with the crazy stuff. When less than 60% of eligible voters bother to vote, you only have to get a few of the fringe to vote, (that usually don't bother go to the polls to vote for guys like Mitt Romney).... that can make a huge difference. Now.... Are Trump and Bannon crackpots, or hateful, or racist? I don't think so. But they will take the votes thank you very much. Bannon has pretty much said that he is fine with this fringe element being a part of the movement because it will fade over time. They are a means to an end.


"Bernie I believe was a good person and a man worth voting for, but his policies were way too socialistic for me. I never once have attacked Bernie on a personal level. Hillary? I think she is corrupt".

Agree on both counts. I always felt like Bernie truly believed in what he was saying, and wanted to do good. His policies were horrendous though. It disturbs me a bit how many believe in his policies. IMO Trump and Hillary are both bad people.

"Trump is upsetting both Dems and Reps, that to me is a start to eliminating political correctness that has paralyzed this country in to getting nothing done in fear of hurting people's feelings and in my opinion is going to push both the Dems and Reps to a more moderate government because the extreme of either side is going to hurt. Trump EO's are not the product of lunacy, but the desires of a large chunk of this country that felt it was imperative for major change in Washington. The Christian extreme right did not win and neither did the tea party extremists."

I disagree with most of this. Like I said in my original post... Trump DID upset Reps for a while, but they have mostly fallen in line with him. A few pipe up here and there but they are just happy to be in power again. Hell look at this board. I'm guessing the majority didn't vote for him in the primaries, but got behind him afterwards. Someone who followed the tea party more closely that I did is going to have to explain the difference between Bannon's alt right and the tea party. The first seems like an evolution of the latter to me. I'm also not sure how the Christian extreme right lost. Granted I don't think Trump gives much of a shite about them, but he has played to that base enough that they believe that "Jesus is finally back in the white house". We'll see how it plays out, but I bet we'll see a push to install a lot of what the Christian right wants to see. Anti abortion legislation, repeal of gay marriage and gay discrimination protection, strikes against Islam as a whole. That will depend on the depth of Bannon's involvement.

"The Dems need to get the rioters out of the streets, not boycott inaugurations, and figure out a way to work with this President where their interests are similar, this President might be able to get the Reps to work with the Dems on some issues, that would be a start to healing the rift between the parties. It would be great if both sides of the aisle would remember we are all Americans. When was the last time Dems and Reps truly worked together to put forward great legislation that was passed handidly and supported by both parties? Trump is not partisan politics, if that is lunacy give me more"

Rioters are scum. They just look for chaos as an excuse to be assholes. Throw the book at them. The boycotts were idiotic and a case of shooting your own toes off. Protesters and marchers...no issue there at all. Its the same thing as the large Trump rallies, people getting fired up about beliefs and making their voices heard. The difference being that the rallies had a center character to rally around, the message could be cheer led so that it made sense, and it was easier to control. The marches and protest have nobody to rally around and nobody to lead the message....so its all over the place and a confusing mess.

Trump working with the Dems? I just don't see that happening. I've seen absolutely nothing that indicates Trump wants to work with Dems on anything. I really, really, really hope I am wrong there as party politics have ruined this country....and it makes no logical sense at all. How can two parties disagree on absolutely everything? I mean every freaking thing that comes along they take opposite sides on even if it has absolutely nothing to do with any of the core values of their party.

Reasoned response without getting personal and name calling, type of discussion we need in this country to move forward. Some things can be agreed on.
 
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