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The Illegal Search Of Mar-A-Largo

2012Bearcat

MegaPoke is insane
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Oct 30, 2010
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Excuse the thread title, it was the headliner of the article.

Can one of you legal eagles respond to the the validity of the legal position of the article?
 
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I didn't see anything completely out of the ordinary with the thought process. From my understanding no one has seen the warrant yet, so to say for sure what they where looking for is speculation. To say the warrant was valid is speculation.

So speculation:

The Trump side has made statements to the effect that they were looking on the behest of the archivist. If true then there are some real issues with how this handled. The President can declassify anything at any time for any reason. If he wanted to sit on camera and read all the classified documents one by one to the American people there is nothing that can be done about. Would be a wise move? Definitely not. If he took something that was classified, then he can just say I declassified it. A judge worth anything should know that. Which would then take you back to probable cause. Do you have it? Highly questionable. If the warrant is for this, nothing from this raid will end in a court room, which could mean that he FBI conducted an illegal search and seizure, or that the Trump is stretching the truth (lying). I expect both are true.

With the FBI's track record lately, it would not be hard to convince a jury that was unbiased that the FBI planted anything they may find. Their credibility is in the pooper. They should never have conducted this raid with their credibility as it is right now. They need believability and at least half the country doesn't trust them.

Trump will use this as a political tool, thus why he wont remain silent on it. The FBI did not help themselves, to federal government, or the Biden administration for this raid. The President saying he knew nothing of this is BS. If he didn't know, his staff sure did and even asked for it The only reason he would not know is because he was still eating his jellow, and getting his depends changed, so his staff just handled it, like they have for his entire presidency and they just wrote on his teleprompter tell them you know nothing. He's a useful idiot, so sure I will believe the President knew nothing, but not because he cares about keeping separation from himself and the DOJ. It's simply a matter of how much his tiny little brain can hamster right now.
 
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I didn't see anything completely out of the ordinary with the thought process. From my understanding no one has seen the warrant yet, so to say for sure what they where looking for is speculation. To say the warrant was valid is speculation.

So speculation:

The Trump side has made statements to the effect that they were looking on the behest of the archivist. If true then there are some real issues with how this handled. The President can declassify anything at any time for any reason. If he wanted to sit on camera and read all the classified documents one by one to the American people there is nothing that can be done about. Would be a wise move? Definitely not. If he took something that was classified, then he can just say I declassified it. A judge worth anything should know that. Which would then take you back to probable cause. Do you have it? Highly questionable. If the warrant is for this, nothing from this raid will end in a court room, which could mean that he FBI conducted an illegal search and seizure, or that the Trump is stretching the truth (lying). I expect both are true.

With the FBI's track record lately, it would not be hard to convince a jury that was unbiased that the FBI planted anything they may find. Their credibility is in the pooper. They should never have conducted this raid with their credibility as it is right now. They need believability and at least half the country doesn't trust them.

Trump will use this as a political tool, thus why he wont remain silent on it. The FBI did not help themselves, to federal government, or the Biden administration for this raid. The President saying he knew nothing of this is BS. If he didn't know, his staff sure did and even asked for it The only reason he would not know is because he was still eating his jellow, and getting his depends changed, so his staff just handled it, like they have for his entire presidency and they just wrote on his teleprompter tell them you know nothing. He's a useful idiot, so sure I will believe the President knew nothing, but not because he cares about keeping separation from himself and the DOJ. It's simply a matter of how much his tiny little brain can hamster right now.

My only contention with your post is about convince a jury. If the jury is made up of people in Washington DC they will decide in whatever is in Democrat’s favor.
 
https://nypost.com/2022/08/09/fbi-even-searched-melanias-wardrobe-in-trump-raid/

This article tries to detail what happened during the raid. I'll touch on a couple of things.

"The Post has learned that the search warrant used by the FBI to enter the palatial Palm Beach property focused solely on presidential records and evidence of classified information being stored there."

This most likely meets the specific item or items to look for.

"The raid by over 30 plain clothes agents from the Southern District of Florida and the FBI’s Washington Field Office extended through the Trump family’s entire 3,000-square-foot private quarters, as well as to a separate office and safe, and a locked basement storage room in which 15 cardboard boxes of material from the White House were stored."

Definitely some issues with this. A Warrant should state what part of the residence is to be searched for the items that they are looking for. It is rare to have an entire 3,000 sq./ft. residence as a search area, and is highly questionable constitutionally (4th). The warrant would definitely need to state that the safe specifically is part of the search, as well as the locked storage room, which should been the focus of the search. From this article they claim the FBI did not do this.

Feds arrived at 9 a.m. and didn’t leave until 6:30 p.m.

Time is not an element in any warrant criteria I have ever heard or read about. With that being said from the search perspective this is a very long period of time to conduct a search. It could imply they were not finding what they were looking for because as soon as the FBI found what was on the warrant, they have to leave, they cannot keep looking for anything else. They would need to obtain a new warrant. I would ask the question of how many warrants were issued.

"Trump’s attorneys, led by Evan Corcoran, had been cooperating fully with federal authorities on the return of the documents to the National Archives and Records Administration, according to sources."
"In May, Corcoran granted access into Mar-a-Lago’s windowless storage room to FBI agents who spent several hours searching through the boxes."

If this is true a warrant should never have been issued as it was not needed. The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated. The warrant gives authorities the ability to violate your right to be secure. There is no reason to violate your rights when you are already cooperating. If true this is very bad, for the FBI, and the Judge that issued the warrant. The judge could be disbarred, and well the FBI would be throwing gasoline on a bonfire.

"The FBI would not have executed a warrant without notifying the Secret Service first, according to a retired high ranking USSS agent. “USSS legal counsel probably would’ve directed [them] to see copy of warrant and then step back.”"

The agents at the gate would have been expecting the FBI to show up, and would most likely have been briefed prior to showing up for their shift. The legal counsel would have most likely told them ahead of time that they were to see the warrant, and allow access. This implies that the SS knew of the Raid, most likely days in advance. They would have also been told to stay quiet about it as the lawyers for Trump were caught off guard and showed up an hour after the raid began.

"The demeanor of the three DOJ lawyers who accompanied the FBI was described by one eyewitness as “arrogant,” and they repeatedly told Trump representatives: “We have full access to everything. We can go everywhere.”

This gives me a pause to believe that the warrant was legal. ...Warrants shall issue,...and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. This by no means comes close to meeting the 4th amendment's requirements for a warrant. However, we are talking about hearsay, and I would want one of the lawyers to corroborate this statement.

"The feds instructed Trump’s representatives to switch off the security cameras but they refused."

Finally someone made a good choice to refuse what would be a request as the warrant would not tell them they can search without being recorded. They would be pressured to do so, and at least one person had some backbone and understanding of the process and rights here. The lawyers that were told they could not observe, now have the ability to observe. Those recordings could be some of the most valuable security camera footage ever taken. I would expect that his security cameras in this estate to be detailed, and of high quality picture. They need to be validated, secured, then copied, and then have the copies revalidated to ensure the digital signature is the same every time.

What a story. This is like watching political Days of our Lives. When I voted for Trump in 2016 I said, I'll hold my nose, and at the very least I will be entertained. I have to say, that the ticket I bought I that day, has given more entertainment than I ever expected, and keeps on giving even after he is not in the WH. Best vote I have ever cast, bar none, and its not even close.
 
Definitely some issues with this. A Warrant should state what part of the residence is to be searched for the items that they are looking for. It is rare to have an entire 3,000 sq./ft. residence as a search area, and is highly questionable constitutionally (4th). The warrant would definitely need to state that the safe specifically is part of the search, as well as the locked storage room, which should been the focus of the search. From this article they claim the FBI did not do this.

I just can't tell you guys how impressed I am that so many of you have expertise in climate science, viruses, political polling, voting machine forensics, international diplomacy, and now federal warrant law. I bend a knee.

What's your source for this?
 
I just can't tell you guys how impressed I am that so many of you have expertise in climate science, viruses, political polling, voting machine forensics, international diplomacy, and now federal warrant law. I bend a knee.

What's your source for this?
You should be impressed, it dwarfs your experience, “Counselor”. As usual, no substantive reply from dipskashit.
 
I just can't tell you guys how impressed I am that so many of you have expertise in climate science, viruses, political polling, voting machine forensics, international diplomacy, and now federal warrant law. I bend a knee.

What's your source for this?
Rich coming from a no-it-all like you.
 
I just can't tell you guys how impressed I am that so many of you have expertise in climate science, viruses, political polling, voting machine forensics, international diplomacy, and now federal warrant law. I bend a knee.

What's your source for this?
What’s your source for a counter argument?
 

Excuse the thread title, it was the headliner of the article.

Can one of you legal eagles respond to the the validity of the legal position of the article?
Yeah....

1. Any time you start talking about supposed plenary powers of an office regardless of statutory limits on those powers you're on very shaky legal ground from the get go. You are also on very shaky legal ground when your arguments start off with claims of "executive privilege".

2. The notion that a search warrant is an abuse of prosecutorial discretion and an ex parte action that shouldn't be allowed in favor of a contested hearing as to probable cause is laughable. That's not how search warrants work.

3. He gets his definitions and the law on suppression of evidence seized pursuant to a search warrant generally correct, but "to determine issues related to possession of any particular document, at a minimum both sides need to be heard by the court. The issuance of an ex parte search and seizure warrant in this instance was an abuse of discretion and a violation of President Trump’s Fourth Amendment rights. " is just dead wrong.

4. The rest of the article is just talking points in the "if they can do this to Trump, imagine what they can do you" vein and not legal arguments.
 
https://nypost.com/2022/08/09/fbi-even-searched-melanias-wardrobe-in-trump-raid/

This article tries to detail what happened during the raid. I'll touch on a couple of things.

"The Post has learned that the search warrant used by the FBI to enter the palatial Palm Beach property focused solely on presidential records and evidence of classified information being stored there."

This most likely meets the specific item or items to look for.

"The raid by over 30 plain clothes agents from the Southern District of Florida and the FBI’s Washington Field Office extended through the Trump family’s entire 3,000-square-foot private quarters, as well as to a separate office and safe, and a locked basement storage room in which 15 cardboard boxes of material from the White House were stored."

Definitely some issues with this. A Warrant should state what part of the residence is to be searched for the items that they are looking for. It is rare to have an entire 3,000 sq./ft. residence as a search area, and is highly questionable constitutionally (4th). The warrant would definitely need to state that the safe specifically is part of the search, as well as the locked storage room, which should been the focus of the search. From this article they claim the FBI did not do this.
Disagree. The particularity of place to be search requirement doesn't need to state specific containers, rooms, or safes to pass 4th Amendment muster. While officers are not entitled to search any place where the items authorized to be searched for could not be reasonably be located, until we know what they were authorized to search for and the return indicating what they seized say, we cannot know whether they searched any place not authorized by the warrant.
Feds arrived at 9 a.m. and didn’t leave until 6:30 p.m.

Time is not an element in any warrant criteria I have ever heard or read about. With that being said from the search perspective this is a very long period of time to conduct a search. It could imply they were not finding what they were looking for because as soon as the FBI found what was on the warrant, they have to leave, they cannot keep looking for anything else. They would need to obtain a new warrant. I would ask the question of how many warrants were issued.
Agreed.
"Trump’s attorneys, led by Evan Corcoran, had been cooperating fully with federal authorities on the return of the documents to the National Archives and Records Administration, according to sources."
"In May, Corcoran granted access into Mar-a-Lago’s windowless storage room to FBI agents who spent several hours searching through the boxes."

If this is true a warrant should never have been issued as it was not needed. The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated. The warrant gives authorities the ability to violate your right to be secure. There is no reason to violate your rights when you are already cooperating. If true this is very bad, for the FBI, and the Judge that issued the warrant. The judge could be disbarred, and well the FBI would be throwing gasoline on a bonfire.
Kinda agree and kinda disagree. Prior cooperation isn't a basis for invalidating a warrant based upon probable cause. "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.' It's an interesting argument that the "and" is disjunctive and the 4th amendment details two different rights. I don't think that is the correct argument to make and would be unsuccessful if made to attempt to invalidate the warrant. I think the more legally correct argument is that the first part of the 4th Amendment is prefatory and an explanation as to why no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, etc. That would be in line with decisions that warrantless searches/arrests are presumed a violation of the 4th Amendment and searches pursuant to a warrant are presumed to be legal and constitutional subject to rebuttal by showing that the warrant wasn't obtained based upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. I am aware of no decisions finding that the search warrant met all of the constitutional requirements of the 4th Amendment warrant requirement, but were nevertheless a violation of someone's 4th Amendment rights against unreasonable search and seizure.

I see no possibility of the Judge being disbarred because Trump was supposedly already cooperating when he signed a warrant. You are entirely correct about the "optics" of such a decision though.

"The FBI would not have executed a warrant without notifying the Secret Service first, according to a retired high ranking USSS agent. “USSS legal counsel probably would’ve directed [them] to see copy of warrant and then step back.”"

The agents at the gate would have been expecting the FBI to show up, and would most likely have been briefed prior to showing up for their shift. The legal counsel would have most likely told them ahead of time that they were to see the warrant, and allow access. This implies that the SS knew of the Raid, most likely days in advance. They would have also been told to stay quiet about it as the lawyers for Trump were caught off guard and showed up an hour after the raid began.
Agreed
"The demeanor of the three DOJ lawyers who accompanied the FBI was described by one eyewitness as “arrogant,” and they repeatedly told Trump representatives: “We have full access to everything. We can go everywhere.”

This gives me a pause to believe that the warrant was legal. ...Warrants shall issue,...and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. This by no means comes close to meeting the 4th amendment's requirements for a warrant. However, we are talking about hearsay, and I would want one of the lawyers to corroborate this statement.
I addressed the particularity argument earlier. The determination of whether the warrant was of sufficient particularity and whether they searched somewhere not allowed pursuant to the search warrant would be decided upon the four corners of the affidavit, warrant, and return though....not the arrogance, demeanor, or statements of DOJ lawyers.
"The feds instructed Trump’s representatives to switch off the security cameras but they refused."

Finally someone made a good choice to refuse what would be a request as the warrant would not tell them they can search without being recorded. They would be pressured to do so, and at least one person had some backbone and understanding of the process and rights here. The lawyers that were told they could not observe, now have the ability to observe. Those recordings could be some of the most valuable security camera footage ever taken. I would expect that his security cameras in this estate to be detailed, and of high quality picture. They need to be validated, secured, then copied, and then have the copies revalidated to ensure the digital signature is the same every time.
Agreed.
What a story. This is like watching political Days of our Lives. When I voted for Trump in 2016 I said, I'll hold my nose, and at the very least I will be entertained. I have to say, that the ticket I bought I that day, has given more entertainment than I ever expected, and keeps on giving even after he is not in the WH. Best vote I have ever cast, bar none, and its not even close.
It is one helluva story, and it has (and continues to be) one helluva ride.

BTW, IMO this was an excellent, thoughtful, well-reasoned post. I really enjoyed reading and responding to it.

So....thank you for that.
 
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Disagree. The particularity of place to be search requirement doesn't need to state specific containers, rooms, or safes to pass 4th Amendment muster. While officers are not entitled to search any place where the items authorized to be searched for could not be reasonably be located, until we know what they were authorized to search for and the return indicating what they seized say, we cannot know whether they searched any place not authorized by the warrant.

Agreed.

Kinda agree and kinda disagree. Prior cooperation isn't a basis for invalidating a warrant based upon probable cause. "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.' It's an interesting argument that the "and" is disjunctive and the 4th amendment details two different rights. I don't think that is the correct argument to make and would be unsuccessful if made to attempt to invalidate the warrant. I think the more legally correct argument is that the first part of the 4th Amendment is prefatory and an explanation as to why no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, etc. That would be in line with decisions that warrant searches/arrests are presumed a violation of the 4th Amendment and searches pursuant to a warrant are presumed to be legal subject to rebuttal and showing that the warrant wasn't obtained based upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I see no possibility of the Judge being disbarred because Trump was supposedly already cooperating when he signed a warrant. You are entirely correct about the "optics" of such a decision though.


Agreed

I addressed the particularity argument earlier. The determination of whether the warrant was of sufficient particularity and whether they searched somewhere not allowed pursuant to the search warrant would be decided upon the four corners of the affidavit, warrant, and return though....not the arrogance, demeanor, or statements of DOJ lawyers.

Agreed.

It is one helluva story, and it has (and continues to be) one helluva ride.

BTW, IMO this was an excellent, thoughtful, well-reasoned post. I really enjoyed reading and responding to it.

So....thank you for that.
JD? Does it trouble you that the FBI and the DOJ has not made a public statement re: the search?

If the warrant and search is justified, I have no problem. Confidence isn't high at the moment for me.
 
JD? Does it trouble you that the FBI and the DOJ has not made a public statement re: the search?

If the warrant and search is justified, I have no problem. Confidence isn't high at the moment for me.
Not really, no.

It's an on-going investigation, charges haven't been filed, and I would interpret a press conference hailing and disclosing much more detail than a search warrant was served at X location on X date to be more of an advance "perp walk" attempt at incriminating someone. We already know a search warrant was served at X location on X date already.

It's in the nature of criminal investigations that may lead to prosecutions that the subject gets to say anything he wants at any time alleging bias, violations of the law by the investigators, etc., but the prosecutor is limited to trying his case in court for the most part. In Oklahoma we have a special rule about extrajudicial statements by prosecutors:

"Except for statements that are necessary to inform the public of the nature and extent of the prosecutor's action and that serve a legitimate law enforcement purpose, refrain from making extrajudicial comments that have a substantial likelihood of heightening public condemnation of the accused and exercise reasonable care to prevent investigators, law enforcement personnel, employees or other persons assisting or associated with the prosecutor in a criminal case from making an extrajudicial statement that the prosecutor would be prohibited from making under Rule 3.6 or this Rule;"

The ABA Prosecutorial standards have a similar rule as do most all bar associations.

I will concede that there are prosecutors than often toe the line of such prohibited communications and some than routinely jump way past it, but that ain't me. I would interpret a public statement made about the search as attempting to explain away the "optics" issues that are being raised rather than serving a legitimate law enforcement purpose and therefore unethical. Especially true given the search warrants are presently sealed from public disclosure.
 
@CowboyJD what do we think about this source? This judge does not appear to be a fellow bsg. Of course, this could be false.

 
There’s a bunch of weird antisemite stuff from Lenny dykstra of all people in this article, but this talks about his Epstein connections as well.

It's not really antisemitic to point out that reformed Judaism is midguided. EDIT: article states he studies Torah with the Chabad.
 
@CowboyJD what do we think about this source? This judge does not appear to be a fellow bsg. Of course, this could be false.

So we are going with the Epstein connection….good to know.

You might want to look further into testimony given by at least one of his clients in Ghislane’s trial and another one that bought and groomed by Epstein at age 15.
 
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Oh yeah, is it time for me to point out Trump’s got plenty of connections to Epstein as well?

Let you guys all scoff about guilt by association when I do?

And then me point out that you’re doing exactly the same thing at this point in time.

How about this?

Let’s just jump to the usual end of you declaring Trump the victim and the Judges and prosecutors of criminal conduct….and me being willing to let the charges and trials and juries out the truth.
 
Oh yeah, is it time for me to point out Trump’s got plenty of connections to Epstein as well?

Let you guys all scoff about guilt by association when I do?

And then me point out that you’re doing exactly the same thing at this point in time.

How about this?

Let’s just jump to the usual end of you declaring Trump the victim and the Judges and prosecutors of criminal conduct….and me being willing to let the charges and trials and juries out the truth.
But the judge was blatantly anti-Trump with a social media trail to prove it. Has the word "recusal" been eradicated from the lexicon of jurisprudence?
 
But the judge was blatantly anti-Trump with a social media trail to prove it. Has the word "recusal" been eradicated from the lexicon of jurisprudence?
The two…TWO….posts highlighted in Harry’s source are pretty damned innocuous and hardly prove a blatantly anti-Trump bias for anyone but the most rabid Trumpet.
 
So we are going with the Epstein connection….good to know.

You might want to look further into testimony given by at least one of his clients in Ghislane’s trial and another one that bought and groomed by Epstein at age 15.

thats why I tagged you. I do a little leg work and then maybe you do as well? You got a link?
 
Oh yeah, is it time for me to point out Trump’s got plenty of connections to Epstein as well?

Let you guys all scoff about guilt by association when I do?

And then me point out that you’re doing exactly the same thing at this point in time.

How about this?

Let’s just jump to the usual end of you declaring Trump the victim and the Judges and prosecutors of criminal conduct….and me being willing to let the charges and trials and juries out the truth.

Was trump involved in defending sex traffickers after working for the prosecutors? Bsg doesn’t have to die on EVERY hill does he?
 
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