The Fascist Pope (There's That Word Again)
- Thread starter Ponca Dan
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I defer to your greater knowledge. Who was the Pope that colluded with the Nazis during WW2? And why did he do it?
Pope Pius XII saved tens of thousands of Jews during WWII by helping to hide them. In fact one of the Jews he saved, the Grand Rabbi of Rome, was so impressed that he converted and became Catholic.
You been reading Jack Chick comics lol?
It's been 50 years since I was a history major at OSU, so, as an old man I confess I oftentimes get my history wrong. I could have sworn I learned the Vatican was the recipient of millions of dollars worth of jewelry, artifacts and art that the Nazis stole from Jews they had sent to the death camps. And then refused to give it back when the war was over. Hell. maybe I read it in a novel and converted it in my head that it was history.
Anyway, I managed to get off the topic of the article. The topic of the article is the current Pope has been exhorting the same economic policies the fascists practiced, the same ones he experienced in Argentina as he was growing up. I have not read a transcript of the speech he gave, the one that spurred DiLorenzo to write the article. I have only seen periodic rebuttals to his speeches about economics. It is obvious he opposes the concept of free markets, and I think DiLorenzo makes an articulate case that what the pope advocates is the same national socialism of the fascists. I won't attempt to speak to earlier Popes. I always kind of admired the one from Poland, I forget his name.
You are in error to call DiLorenzo a fool. He is a well respected economic historian who has spent most of his adult life in its study.
And for what its worth I've never heard of Jack Chick comics.
Normally that would make you a hero, but in this case those tens of thousands went on to spread political correctness and multiculturalism.
I didn't read the article but I would expect the Pope to be a socialist. I wouldn't necessarily expect people to listen to his advice with respect to economic policy.
The Pope is not a Socialist. If you read his speeches, he has harsh words for Socialism. The Popes have talked about he evils of socialism going back to the mid-1850s.
I didn't mean that as a criticism. The new testament reads pretty socialistic to me.
When it comes to economics and economic history I tend to think Thomas DiLorenzo knows what he's talking about. On the other hand you seem to be really sure of yourself. So I would ask you: how would you characterize this Pope's economic musings?
If this Pope focused more on the souls of his flock instead of the politics of the world, he'd be a lot better. He seems to think this is the dark ages where the Kings and Queens fell under the influence of the Pope.
He does not like Socialism. He is also suspicious of capitalism where social services do not exist and the chasing of material wealth as the goal in life.
The current Pope is a hypocrite. He chastises people for not welcoming refugees while not accepting them himself. He chastises people for being materialistic while he sits on a 10,000 chair and drinks out of crystal. He calls out gun manufactures while protected by the Swiss guard and their weapons. He calls for wealth redistribution and doesn't open the church coffers. Arch Bishops live in opulent homes and he chastises us for pursuing wealth.
Screw this Pope. No way he is the vicar of Christ on Earth.
Screw this Pope. No way he is the vicar of Christ on Earth.
Catholicism opposes communism in all its forms and of course John Paul 2 won the cold war (as Our Lady Promised) . Catholicism favors Distributism over capitalism or communism as an economic system.
We are promised by Our Lord only one thing: the Pope, when speaking Ex Cathedra, cannot speak error because the Holy Spirit would intervene. Very rarely do Popes speak from the chair, and of course in matters of Faith and Morals the Church cannot and will never teach error.
That does not mean the Pope will say dumb things about politics, which he can and often does.
We are promised by Our Lord only one thing: the Pope, when speaking Ex Cathedra, cannot speak error because the Holy Spirit would intervene. Very rarely do Popes speak from the chair, and of course in matters of Faith and Morals the Church cannot and will never teach error.
That does not mean the Pope will say dumb things about politics, which he can and often does.
Well, under capitalism social services fall under the auspices of organizations like his. Why would he object to that? Does he want to use the police power of the state to force people to "be Christian?" Don't Catholics believe in free will? I thought we were expected to exercise our free will and voluntarily act charitably in order to be accepted into Heaven. If we have to be charitable under the duress of state sanction, how can we get into Heaven? We didn't get to be charitable of our own volition.
I understand his apparent notion that "money is the root of all evil." Ayn Rand has a perfect rebuttal to this belief in her book "Atlas Shrugged." The good Pope would be well served to read it. She asks the question "what is the root of money?"
I have looked up quotes the man has made regarding the pursuit of money, and economics in general, and I haven't found any negative comments pertaining to socialism.
Just write me a check. I promise you will feel better.
Love of money is the root of all kinds of evil, not all evil....unless you use the KJV.
It's hard for me to believe Satan's fall was all about the Benjamins.
It's hard for me to believe Satan's fall was all about the Benjamins.
I think when defining someone as a "socialist", it is important to know what type of socialism one is talking about, because previous Popes have praised certain forms of socialism. Are we talking about democratic socialism, social democracy, marxist-leninist socialism, etc?
Pope Francis is definitely not a Marxist-Leninist and it is the Marxist-Leninist form of socialism that previous Popes have so strongly condemned. However, previous Popes (including Pope Benedict XVI) have praised aspects of democratic socialism and social democracy. Pope Benedict XVI once wrote, "In many respects democratic socialism was and is close to Catholic social doctrine; in any case, it contributed toward the formation of a social consciousness." (From Europe: Today and Tomorrow, 2007). Pope Francis also seems to embrace many aspects of democratic socialism, while firmly rejecting Marxist-Leninist doctrine. There is also the discussion one can have about the connections between liberation theology and Pope Francis.
Also, the Pope Francis is an international religious leader first and foremost. Therefore, his approach to politics (as well as his political opinions) is going to be different than an American politician.
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No doubt about this. There are many connections between the philosophy of Jesus in the New Testament and certain forms of socialism. Jesus was a revolutionary.
Reminds me of the quote by Gandhi...
"I like your Christ; I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
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As for the original article, Pope Francis is also not a fascist. He is about as far from a fascist as one could be.
Interesting comment. I would say a libertarian is as far from a fascist as one could be. And yet the Pope has gone out of his way to condemn libertarianism, while proclaiming himself to be a Peronista. Peron was as fascist as a fascist could be.
There are different aspects of Peronism though. The aspects the Pope appears to endorse are the social justice aspects. Also, from what I have read and heard, the Pope doesn't embrace rampant capitalism nor does he embrace communism.
Libertarianism tends to embrace a form of rampant capitalism that yes, the Pope (and previous Popes before him) cannot support. However, that doesn't mean the Pope is a fascist. The Pope is far from being a fascist and to make such a claim is both reckless and misleading.
Again though, in the end, the Pope is a international religious leader (that can have political impact) not an American politician. That is important to remember.
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Another interesting comment!
I don't mind if you want to split hairs on the "different aspects" of Peron's rule. He was a complicated guy, no doubt about it. But there's also no doubt that he exercised fascist economic policies each time he ruled, progressively getting more tyrannical with each iteration. And it led to precisely the economic calamity that national socialism always leads to, the same calamitous results libertarian economists predict. (By the way, it will lead the US to the same results if Trump gets his way with his version.)
The Pope embraces Peron's "social justice" policies, exactly right. What are social justice policies (from an economic standpoint) if they're not socialist/fascist? Have you observed the actions of America's social justice warriors?
Look, I don't think the Pope has evil intentions. I think he is economically illiterate. He pronounces social justice platitudes that sound good and play well with the great unwashed masses. I doubt he has thought anywhere beyond the platitudes. Economic historians could show him his errors, that those platitudes cannot work, have never worked, and can only lead to tyranny, poverty, and misery for the vast majority. But he doesn't look past his erroneous vision.
Ponca Dan out.
I won't argue that Pope Francis embraces aspects of democratic socialism and/or social democracy (he would reject Marxism-Leninism though). Previous Popes (Benedict XVI for example) have also praised aspects of democratic socialism. However, that does not make Francis or previous popes fascists.
Hitler, for example, was a fascist, not a socialist. In fact, Hitler opposed socialism (and communism). Hitler's focus was on race, not class. Indeed, Hitler sought to rid Germany of socialists. He dismantled trade unions that were not favorable to his fascism. Even though socialism was part of "national socialism", the Nazis were not socialists. They embraced and pushed a fascist ideology.
So to say "what are social justice policies if they're not socialist/fascist" is blurring the line in my opinion. Sure, many of the social justice warriors in America today embrace democratic socialism or social democracy. However, they don't embrace fascism. Indeed, they strongly reject fascism.
Therefore, if one wants to claim that Pope Francis embraces aspects of democratic socialism, or that he embraces social justice, or that he embraces the social justice aspects of Peronism, I don't think one would get too many objections. However, none of that makes him a fascist, which was the claim of the above article.
Pope Francis is not a fascist.
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Posted like a true libertarian.
I have no doubt given the educational background and experience Pope Francis has that he is far from economically illiterate. I am sure if you ever had a conversation with him about these matters, you would be rather amazed at the level of his knowledge.
And btw, you are correct that economic historians who libertarians love to embrace (and talk ad nauseam about at dinner parties) would make such a claim about social justice efforts. However, that doesn't make such claims true.
Why would you give Pope Francis the benefit of the doubt on economic literacy? I would bet $100 Obama could not draw a supply and demand graph and explain it. I certainly wouldn't give him the benefit of the doubt based on a Harvard Law degree. I don't get the feeling that our politicians and leaders are economically literate in any way, shape, or form.
I've gotta hand it to you. Your argument is cogent, concise and irrefutable. Especially the part about libertarian economists. What an annoying bunch! They have the audacity to perceive that individual liberty is the most important political policy, and then spend their entire careers arguing the point. Advocating policies that would enhance liberty while simultaneously criticizing those policies that inhibit it. The unmitigated gall! They can be so tiresome at dinner parties. I'm pretty sure there is a picture of Fredrich Hayek (Nobel Prize, 1974), Milton Friedman (Nobel Prize, 1976), James M. Buchanan (Nobel Prize, 1986), and Vernon L. Smith (Nobel Prize, 2002) at a dinner party where they drove people away with their unenlightened drivel. Probably later they repaired to a back room where they donned their tinfoil hats. No, libertarian economists are kooks from the far fringe of economic thought. No one should pay them any attention. Nothing to learn from them.
I never posted they were kooks. I have studied the ones you listed and they are very intelligent. Just as are those who advocate opposite economic positions and recognize other important political policies.
btw, just so you know, there are aspects of libertarianism that I agree with. Its commitment to civil liberties, for example.
