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Stitt vs. Dorky Drew

My point isn't to compare virus variability. It also isn't to state that flu vaccines will ever eradicate the flu. But thanks for letting me know.

I'm sure by the quality of your posts that you know that flu vaccination rates are pretty poor. I'm also sure that you know that the flu vaccine is relatively new in comparison to the measles vaccine. I'm also positive that you're aware that a first of its kind study was published in 2017 in Pediatrics showing that the risk of death from influenza related complications was reduced by roughly 50% in at risk children and and 65% in healthy children. The fact that influenza related death isn't yet reportable in the elderly is terrible. Hopefully that changes soon.

I'm not an anti vaccination person but I do believe in personal choice, vaccination included. I agree that people that don't vaccinate their kids are idiots, but I don't make their choices for them. If I'm taking away the ability of choice from a population, I'm taking away smoking and alcohol well before I take away vaccination choice. There's enough smart people in the country that vaccinate their kids.

Yes to all of the above. This post is more of something we can discuss. The others were bordering on Toon level.

With your last paragraph, we are on total agreement. There are no laws on the books requiring vaccines (for people. Different story for animals). I am a strong believer in personal choice. I am against the legislation against stupidity. However, and 2001 pointed it out, the <17 year old has little choice in these matters. As strong as I support personal choice and freedom, when it comes to public (and more appropriately, private) schools, I also support the requirement for vaccines to attend. Yes, much of this is my public health background and interests (finishing up my MPH soon), but data also supports this. I do assume you understand that (no, I am not being facetious there).
 
Lot of people getting caught up on stupid shit.

What Stitt has no one on this board has. You want the same stupid shit, vote drew. You want to transform this state into one that’s relevant and successful, vote Stitt.
 
Lot of people getting caught up on stupid shit.

What Stitt has no one on this board has. You want the same stupid shit, vote drew. You want to transform this state into one that’s relevant and successful, vote Stitt.

And you believe that lol
 
Lot of people getting caught up on stupid shit.

What Stitt has no one on this board has. You want the same stupid shit, vote drew. You want to transform this state into one that’s relevant and successful, vote Stitt.
How in the world is Drew Edmonson in anyway the same as Gov Fallin? The cults of personality you guys buy into is so obvious .
 
Maybe he's just waiting for his kids to be old enough (say 7 or 8) to decide for themselves if they want vaccines. I mean, we believe thats old enough for kids to make decisions about gender selection and sexual lifestyle, so why not vaccines?
 
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I am a strong believer in personal choice. I am against the legislation against stupidity. However, and 2001 pointed it out, the <17 year old has little choice in these matters.
Agreed, although legislating stupidity wouldn't be to protect the stupid. It would be to protect the 2 year old that didn't get to choose to not ride in the car with drunk dad. I see more dead children >1 years of age due to that kind of stupid than every other illness combined.

As strong as I support personal choice and freedom, when it comes to public (and more appropriately, private) schools, I also support the requirement for vaccines to attend.
I don't disagree at all. The reality is that the religious exception is thoroughly abused. There is a tiny fraction of people that actually practice religions that forbid vaccination (as in church sanctioned, not some local preacher), ultra orthodox Jews and Dutch Reformed Church off the top of my head. You're as likely to see a unicorn jumping over a rainbow as you are to see anyone of those two religions in a public or typical private school. That said, what about a private school comprised only of ultra orthodox Jews? Should they be required to be vaccinated? Probably sounds like a silly question, but how can you effectively carve them out legislatively from a no exception law? Or would such a school be prohibited from existing?

Yes, much of this is my public health background and interests (finishing up my MPH soon), but data also supports this. I do assume you understand that (no, I am not being facetious there).
Of course I understand that the data supports it. I made no attempt to compare viruses, only mortality rates in diseased populations. As you know, the flu vaccine was no small feat. Influenza kills quite effectively, probably much more than is actually known because of the limitations you previously mentioned. The CDC and WHO would have endless orgasms if they could research a nearly 100% flu vaccinated population. Of course that isn't comparable to things like measles and rubella since influenza easily mutates as you stated, but influenza eradication isn't the end goal. Reduction in morbidity and mortality is. And yes, I do understand both well.

With a background in public health I'm sure you're well aware of the burdens that influenza puts on the healthcare system and the toll it takes on human life. Last year sucked. We were shipping Oklahoma kids to places like Dallas, Houston, and Denver because there were no pediatric beds available in Oklahoma. Hospital beds for adults were hard to come by and ICU beds in the OKC metro were in very short supply. I'm a strong supporter of mandatory flu vaccination for kids in public/private school and any adult who works in healthcare. Anyone who doesn't get vaccinated these days is fairly dumb in my opinion.

Yes to all of the above. This post is more of something we can discuss. The others were bordering on Toon level.
I believe you and I were discussing two different things in an attempt at a singular conversation. But point taken.
 
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The guy has been involved in OK government LITERALLY his entire adult life. Can you point to any positive contribution he's made?

As AG:

Lawsuit and settlement against the tobacco industry.

Creation of a victim assistance unit for criminal prosecution.

Disagreed with his handling of the Joyce Gilchrist matter.

He was a good DA in Muskogee County as well IMO. Put a lot of bad hombres in jail.
 
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As AG:

Lawsuit and settlement against the tobacco industry.

Creation of a victim assistance unit for criminal prosecution.

Disagreed with his handling of the Joyce Gilchrist matter.

He was a good DA in Muskogee County as well IMO. Put a lot of bad hombres in jail.

The tobacco industry lawsuit stuff is over-rated. By the time he came up to bat, there was significant precedent already established. Not real hard to reach that settlement.
 
The tobacco industry lawsuit stuff is over-rated. By the time he came up to bat, there was significant precedent already established. Not real hard to reach that settlement.

First AG lawsuit filed in May of 94, I believe.

First settlements in April of 96.

Oklahoma’s lawsuit filed in August of 96.

I disagree with your assessment of significant precedent making settlement easy to reach by the time Oklahoma’s suit was filed,
 
First AG lawsuit filed in May of 94, I believe.

First settlements in April of 96.

Oklahoma’s lawsuit filed in August of 96.

I disagree with your assessment of significant precedent making settlement easy to reach by the time Oklahoma’s suit was filed,

I'm certainly not a legal scholar, and maybe my facts are wrong, but wasn't Oklahoma simply part of the Master Tobacco settlement?
 
I'm certainly not a legal scholar, and maybe my facts are wrong, but wasn't Oklahoma simply part of the Master Tobacco settlement?

Oklahoma was in discussions with other AGs establishing strategy and cooperation among the other plaintiffs from pretty much his first day in office. Oklahoma filed in 96...was somewhere around 15th state to file, by 1998 48 states had filed and the Master Tobacco Settlement was entered that year.

So yes, Oklahoma ended up being part of the Master Tobacco settlement, but getting there was not “simply” taking what had been negotiated by others or simply following precedent already set. Oklahoma was involved in establishing the precedent that lead to the Master Settlement.

I’m not saying he did it all on his own, he just did more than your OP indicates. I consider his work and involvement in it a positive contribution to the state. IMO, he was a pretty decent to good AG and a good to very good DA.
 
Agreed, although legislating stupidity wouldn't be to protect the stupid. It would be to protect the 2 year old that didn't get to choose to not ride in the car with drunk dad. I see more dead children >1 years of age due to that kind of stupid than every other illness combined.


I don't disagree at all. The reality is that the religious exception is thoroughly abused. There is a tiny fraction of people that actually practice religions that forbid vaccination (as in church sanctioned, not some local preacher), ultra orthodox Jews and Dutch Reformed Church off the top of my head. You're as likely to see a unicorn jumping over a rainbow as you are to see anyone of those two religions in a public or typical private school. That said, what about a private school comprised only of ultra orthodox Jews? Should they be required to be vaccinated? Probably sounds like a silly question, but how can you effectively carve them out legislatively from a no exception law? Or would such a school be prohibited from existing?


Of course I understand that the data supports it. I made no attempt to compare viruses, only mortality rates in diseased populations. As you know, the flu vaccine was no small feat. Influenza kills quite effectively, probably much more than is actually known because of the limitations you previously mentioned. The CDC and WHO would have endless orgasms if they could research a nearly 100% flu vaccinated population. Of course that isn't comparable to things like measles and rubella since influenza easily mutates as you stated, but influenza eradication isn't the end goal. Reduction in morbidity and mortality is. And yes, I do understand both well.

With a background in public health I'm sure you're well aware of the burdens that influenza puts on the healthcare system and the toll it takes on human life. Last year sucked. We were shipping Oklahoma kids to places like Dallas, Houston, and Denver because there were no pediatric beds available in Oklahoma. Hospital beds for adults were hard to come by and ICU beds in the OKC metro were in very short supply. I'm a strong supporter of mandatory flu vaccination for kids in public/private school and any adult who works in healthcare. Anyone who doesn't get vaccinated these days is fairly dumb in my opinion.


I believe you and I were discussing two different things in an attempt at a singular conversation. But point taken.


Without getting too long winded, there is very little to disagree with here. I agree that drinking should be controlled...and it is against the law to drink and drive. Same thing with drugs (though many are illegal in general). On the school part, if it is a private school, they can have their own vaccination rules as far as I am concerned, providing it receives little to zero public funding.

On influenza, I just see it as a horrible comparison, but I will avoid that rabbit hole. People, in general, have a poor understanding of Influenza the disease and Influenza the vaccine. It has a low mortality rate within Influenza infections. Everybody knows somebody every year that gets the flu. Everybody. Influenza deaths can be misleading (more so to the public than medical professionals) because somebody may have died from influenza complications, but in the end, they hear "the old man died of heart disease/pneumonia/etc" and ignore that influenza was a contributing factor to that death. I run into that in the class that I teach (almost all nurses and nursing candidates). Most all remember the Spanish flu to some extent, remembering that a lot of people died. Today, many buy into bs spewed by the Jenny McCarthys of the world and f-ing "google." Diseases such as those in MMR have become the norm to vaccinate for. Influenza, and I will even throw in HPV (much newer than Influenza vaccine) have a poor vaccination rate, which somewhat undermines its efficacy.

Totally agree on the CDC and WHO, though I know many that are involved with both, I really do not want to think of them orgasming, thank you very much....
But yes, those are the goals of all vaccination programs for now.

Influenza is a bad bug, I will grant you that. I know the flu researchers love the tagline of "every day is a day closer to the next flu pandemic." I hate that they say that, but they are not wrong. It will take another major event to get the general population on board. Same goes for the complacency developing for Measles and other diseases that had been eliminated or nearly eliminated from the US. I use Whooping Cough as my greatest example. Nobody cares about it until they see a baby turning purple trying to breath between coughing.
 
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I'm not sorry to say that there are times where 'for the good of the people' outweighs your 'individual choice'. One specific example is Polio vaccinations. I'm a member of Rotary and it has been our long term mission to eradicate Polio from the planet. We do that by vaccinating everyone in a population. Everyone. Look at where polio still exists - Muslim populations that forbid taking the vaccine. If that resistance was gone there would be no wild Polio left on the planet today. But since they resist we continue to fight to end Polio now. So far this year there have been 20 new cases of Polio in the world. 16 from Afghanistan and 4 from Pakistan. It is very frustrating to be this close and still face resistance.
 
Oklahoma was in discussions with other AGs establishing strategy and cooperation among the other plaintiffs from pretty much his first day in office. Oklahoma filed in 96...was somewhere around 15th state to file, by 1998 48 states had filed and the Master Tobacco Settlement was entered that year.

So yes, Oklahoma ended up being part of the Master Tobacco settlement, but getting there was not “simply” taking what had been negotiated by others or simply following precedent already set. Oklahoma was involved in establishing the precedent that lead to the Master Settlement.

I’m not saying he did it all on his own, he just did more than your OP indicates. I consider his work and involvement in it a positive contribution to the state. IMO, he was a pretty decent to good AG and a good to very good DA.

Fair enough.
 
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Most of the things that Drew rails about in his campaign are things he actually was for and instituted when he was AG. Do you remember the Oklahoma 3? Remember him fighting for private prison contracts? Tougher laws for drug crimes including death penalty for dealers? Here are some of Drew's quotes from the campaign trail.

  • Guthrie News Leader, December 10, 2017: “I would also restore the income tax to its previous levels and raise the cigarette tax,” said Edmondson.
  • Red Dirt Politics, November 3, 2017: “Fourth, I would give the voters the opportunity to uptick the personal income tax back to 6 percent. That’s going to have to be on the ballot because the legislature won’t do it,” said Edmondson.
  • Miami Herald, Oct. 24, 2017: “In funding these endeavors, Edmonson advocates returning the gross production tax to a rate of 7 percent and following that up by giving voters the option of putting their personal income taxes back where they were. ‘I’m not talking about raising them over any historic level,’ said Edmondson. ‘We did a series of tax cuts and the voters should have the opportunity to decide whether we ought to be rolling those back.’”
When Oklahoma City Police Department chemist Joyce Gilchrist was accused of falsifying evidence in hundreds of cases, Attorney General Edmondson was asked to appoint independent counsel to investigate and refused to do so. In addition to having defended her work in appeals proceedings prior to the scandal, he made the decision that most of the death-penalty cases that depended upon her testimony did not need additional review.

Edmondson was a supporter of gun rights when he was running for the 2nd congressional district and took a LOT of money from the NRA for his campaign. Now he wants to change Oklahoma law to make it so you have to be 21 to buy a gun.
 
Today, many buy into bs spewed by the Jenny McCarthys of the world and f-ing "google."
Thanks for the response. Anyone that takes medical advice from Jenny McCarthy should have their children immediately removed from the home. And maybe even rounded up and placed in institutions to keep their stupidity from metastasizing.

I really do not want to think of them orgasming, thank you very much....
I laughed out loud.

Influenza is a bad bug, I will grant you that. I know the flu researchers love the tagline of "every day is a day closer to the next flu pandemic." I hate that they say that, but they are not wrong. It will take another major event to get the general population on board. Same goes for the complacency developing for Measles and other diseases that had been eliminated or nearly eliminated from the US. I use Whooping Cough as my greatest example. Nobody cares about it until they see a baby turning purple trying to breath between coughing.
Absolutely agree.
 
Wow @Medic007 and @blbronco great discussion. One of the few back and forth’s you see on this board that is logical. Like others have said, I’m all for personal choice, but not if you are going to public schools. People have to understand that vaccines only work if everyone is immunized. It’s not really an individual thing, it’s a group deal. If you don’t want to vaccinate, fine, just stay away from public schools where they in close proximity of large groups of kids. Private schools can obviously have their own rules. I have mixed feeing towards flu vaccination, but ultimately think at least kids and healthcare workers should get them.
 
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I have mixed feeing towards flu vaccination, but ultimately think at least kids and healthcare workers should get them.
Thanks for the response!

Can I ask why you have mixed feelings? I meet plenty of people that feel that since it isn't 100% effective, it isn't worth taking.
 
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I am on board for vaccinations for things like measles, mumps, rubela, polio, etc. The flu shots are a different story for me. Most of the research I have read indicates that the efficacy of flu vaccinations is hit or miss as best and ineffective at worst. There is not a strong correlation between the number of flu inoculations given and mortality rates in any demographics outside of the very young or very old. This is because the flu shot is reactionary and not proactive. There is a lot of guess work about what flu strain will be spread from year to year and how the flu will mutate. We are basically trying to inoculate against the flu strains that were prolific last year and guess what will happen this year. I have not had a flu shot for many many years.
 
I am on board for vaccinations for things like measles, mumps, rubela, polio, etc. The flu shots are a different story for me. Most of the research I have read indicates that the efficacy of flu vaccinations is hit or miss as best and ineffective at worst. There is not a strong correlation between the number of flu inoculations given and mortality rates in any demographics outside of the very young or very old. This is because the flu shot is reactionary and not proactive. There is a lot of guess work about what flu strain will be spread from year to year and how the flu will mutate. We are basically trying to inoculate against the flu strains that were prolific last year and guess what will happen this year. I have not had a flu shot for many many years.

I am curious what "research" you have read that indicates this. A number floated around last year was that the vaccine was only 10% effective. Which was true....in Australia. In the United States, even the worst reported efficacy evaluations gave the Influenza vaccine about 40% efficacy. For a disease that can be so variable, that is not a bad number. It is far lower than many of the others (MMR, Hep B, etc). Also, most vaccines out there are "reactionary" as you use the term. The goal is to provide humoral (B-cell - antibodies) or cell-mediated (T-cell driven, but still using antibodies) immunity depending on the route of entry, infectious dose, etc. The "guesswork" statement is often used, but not entirely accurate. There is a level of prediction that has to be used, but not to the degree that many bloggers like to claim. Flu vaccines are multivalant, meaning, multiple strains are included. They use the predominant Influenza A strain, and 2 of the more heavily circulating B strains. There is a quadrivalant vaccine that includes two of the Flu A strains.

Medic did point out a study that does illustrate a reduced mortality (death rate) attributable to influenza infections or complications. So yes, there is a reduction, though the degree to which it does reduce is a calculation based somewhat off of (very good, but still) projections. However, you are missing out on the barrier immunity concept. You are correct that the very young and the elderly are at highest risks for severe complications. Neither of those populations live on an island. They are around a whole lot of young to middle aged people that can transmit the virus.
 
Thanks for the response!

Can I ask why you have mixed feelings? I meet plenty of people that feel that since it isn't 100% effective, it isn't worth taking.
Kind of anecdotal reasons more than anything. We are forced to get it in October, but by Jan/Feb the virus has mutated to where it won’t look anything like the vaccine. Like I said, ultimately I’m in favor of it, just wish there was a better way (obviously everyone does). Not to mention it hurts like hell!
 
Like others have said, mortality rates and flu vaccines are a bad correlation for many reasons. For the most part, I think Medic pointed out, you rarely die from the flu. Even if it starts the train, flu is rarely the reported cause of death. It’s usually contributed to something else. Also, morbidity is a much better thing to look at when it comes to efficacy of the vaccine. Even if it doesn’t kill a single person, it can still be devastating to a population.
 
First AG lawsuit filed in May of 94, I believe.

First settlements in April of 96.

Oklahoma’s lawsuit filed in August of 96.

I disagree with your assessment of significant precedent making settlement easy to reach by the time Oklahoma’s suit was filed,
Got his niece off with 11 yrs. for 2 cold blooded murders.
 
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I'm still a big undecided. Edmondson's comments on "assault rifles" has me shaking my head no, just no. Stitt is a staunch anti-abortion guy, which also has me saying no. Chris Powell is an interesting guy who I actually know, but I'm not sure he's the person best quslified to run the state government.
 
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Got his niece off with 11 yrs. for 2 cold blooded murders.

No he didn’t.

Plead guilty. Convicted 11/98 with a 30+ year sentence in La. given by a La. judge.

Got good behavior credit while in prison under the applicable La. law. Every prisoner got them if they didn’t get bad behavior citations while in prison.

With those credits and credit for time served pending trial, paroled by La. officials in 5/10.

Still serving her parole in Oklahoma.

What you say is a common....wholly inaccurate....myth.
 
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I am curious what "research" you have read that indicates this. A number floated around last year was that the vaccine was only 10% effective. Which was true....in Australia. In the United States, even the worst reported efficacy evaluations gave the Influenza vaccine about 40% efficacy. For a disease that can be so variable, that is not a bad number. It is far lower than many of the others (MMR, Hep B, etc). Also, most vaccines out there are "reactionary" as you use the term. The goal is to provide humoral (B-cell - antibodies) or cell-mediated (T-cell driven, but still using antibodies) immunity depending on the route of entry, infectious dose, etc. The "guesswork" statement is often used, but not entirely accurate. There is a level of prediction that has to be used, but not to the degree that many bloggers like to claim. Flu vaccines are multivalant, meaning, multiple strains are included. They use the predominant Influenza A strain, and 2 of the more heavily circulating B strains. There is a quadrivalant vaccine that includes two of the Flu A strains.

Medic did point out a study that does illustrate a reduced mortality (death rate) attributable to influenza infections or complications. So yes, there is a reduction, though the degree to which it does reduce is a calculation based somewhat off of (very good, but still) projections. However, you are missing out on the barrier immunity concept. You are correct that the very young and the elderly are at highest risks for severe complications. Neither of those populations live on an island. They are around a whole lot of young to middle aged people that can transmit the virus.
I have read the Cochran report which this summary says:
"The infection rate in adults drops from 2% per year to 1%. You could say that’s halved, but it effectively only drops by 1%. So this means that out of every 100 healthy adults vaccinated, 99 get no benefit against laboratory confirmed influenza."

The NCBI has this to say:
"The BC network’s estimates of this year’s flu vaccine efficacy, published in Eurosurveillance, were −8% overall and 2% in young adults against medically attended, laboratory-confirmed influenza A (H3N2) infection — which Skowronski said she interprets as a null effect. This also represents the lowest measured protection against a seasonal virus in the program’s 10-year history, she added."

and also this...
"Universal influenza immunization programs, available in virtually every province and territory, may need to be reconsidered in light of emerging evidence that repeated flu shots may blunt the vaccine’s effectiveness in subsequent seasons.
That phenomenon was seen in the Jan. 29, 2015 interim estimates of the effectiveness of the 2014/15 vaccine against influenza A (H3N2) from Canada’s Sentinel Physician Surveillance Network, headed by Dr. Danuta Skowronski of the British Columbia Centre for Disease Control.
The effects of repeat immunizations need to be studied further. Meanwhile, a return to targeted, high-risk flu vaccine programs, rather than universal coverage, seems warranted, said Skowronski, the BC centre’s epidemiology lead for influenza and emerging respiratory pathogens."
 
Oh and here are some more statements fro Edmondson:

"Specifically we’re talking about immigration — undocumented aliens who are in this country and Dreamers, the children who were brought into this country at a very young age and now may be adults ... They’ve lived here all of their lives and now the question is: Are they going to be sent back?"
"I don’t know if that’s still going to be an issue in January 2019 or not, but that is an area where I would see no compelling reason for the state of Oklahoma to assist federal authorities in taking action that we might not feel is just," Edmondson said at a forum on the campus of the University of Arts and Sciences of Oklahoma.
"I don’t think people have the right to defy the federal government unless they’re willing to bear the consequences. But I also don’t think in this arena that any municipality or any state is obligated to assist the federal government in enforcing policies that state or municipality may not agree with.

And.. then... there is this...
Edmondson also reiterated his pledge to opt into the federal Medicaid expansion offered under the Affordable Care Act.

Then..........
"Arming teachers — in the first place I think creates more problems than it solves and in the second place, it does nothing to protect people in shopping centers and movie theaters and other places where mass shooters have shown up."
 
But I also don’t think in this arena that any municipality or any state is obligated to assist the federal government in enforcing policies that state or municipality may not agree with.
Another point I strongly disagree with Edmondson.

And.. then... there is this...
Edmondson also reiterated his pledge to opt into the federal Medicaid expansion offered under the Affordable Care Act
I've got mixed feelings on this. Increasing federal Medicaid dollars would definitely benefit hospitals and providers in Oklahoma. The downside is the increased burden on Oklahoma taxpayers from adding more than 200,000 people to the program and the inevitable ballooning of Medicaid costs, especially considering many of those added will be able bodied adults. The 10% match quickly adds up and there's zero guarantee that the feds will continue to fund the Medicaid expansion at 90% in perpetuity, which could leave taxpayers on the hook for significantly more than the 10%

After seeing what's happened in Arkansas thus far, this is definitely in the negative column for Edmondson for me at this point.
 
I can't bring myself to support either one of the major party candidates. After the last two governors I was hoping for something better but I's not so sure this isn't the battle of Henry Jr vs Failin Part II.

Think I will go the Libertarian route this go round and vote for Chris Powell.
 
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I was at a Oklahoma Close Up meeting in OKC with Governor Bellman and he fell asleep in the meeting.
 
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I can't bring myself to support either one of the major party candidates. After the last two governors I was hoping for something better but I's not so sure this isn't the battle of Henry Jr vs Failin Part II.

Think I will go the Libertarian route this go round and vote for Chris Powell.
Powell is definitely a good dude but he doesn't have anything approaching executive level leadership experience. He'll be in well over his head. I'm not sure that he wouldn't be worse than a Fallin 2.0 in that regard.
 
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