Something to Contemplate

[Ponca Dan]

This writer sees similarities. Removing all emotional reaction, do you?


http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-meyerson-immigration-fugitive-slave-20180301-story.html

 

[HighStickHarry]

Are we supposed to keep reading past “immigrant haters?” If there is no distinction between people that pay their dues and come here the right way and people who sneak into this country illegally then how are we supposed to take this article seriously?

 

[Ponca Dan]

Are we supposed to keep reading past “immigrant haters?” If there is no distinction between people that pay their dues and come here the right way and people who sneak into this country illegally then how are we supposed to take this article seriously?

So you didn’t read past “immigrant haters?” I thought he had an interesting point, one I had not thought of before. I’m sorry you didn’t read past the first paragraph.

 

[HighStickHarry]

Sorry dude. Internet time is a finite resource. I do more opposition research than anybody I know but that’s just lazy and willfully ignorant.

 

[HighStickHarry]

Not you, the author. I don’t want you going all eeyore on me.

 

[TPOKE]

The ICE/illegal immigrants and slave catcher/slaves comparison is very far reaching and two extremely different situations, but it tugs at the liberal heartstrings. Pretty insensitive.

 

[Ponca Dan]

The ICE/illegal immigrants and slave catcher/slaves comparison is very far reaching and two extremely different situations, but it tugs at the liberal heartstrings. Pretty insensitive.

That’s a fair but broad estimate. Could you expand on how it is far reaching and two extremely different situations? Mainly I’m wondering what principle you are using.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Not you, the author. I don’t want you going all eeyore on me.

No, Harry, I would never go "all eeyore" on you; you are one of my favorite posters. The thing I like about you is you leave no question about what you think. You're a lot like Donald Trump in that way. You hear or read something that evokes an emotional reaction, and out pops your response. It's quite refreshing, actually. Your amygdala is quite strong!

(New paragraph) In my defense I believe you are unfair to accuse me of "going all eeyore." If you are referring to my arguments against Trump's tariffs you have mistaken my passion for the subject as anger. I said what I wanted to say, it evoked a multitude of responses ranging from thoughtful to critical, angry, ad hominem, insulting, rational; it ran the whole gamut. I tried to answer every response in as polite, calm and rational manner as possible. I don't believe I once insulted back.

(New paragraph) If you are referring to my responses to Pancreek's manifesto you have a point. I am a libertarian. For a libertarian the only political principle worth having is individual liberty. Pancreek's manifesto was one of the most anti-liberty statements I have read in quite a while. When the first couple of responses were in basic agreement with him (one of the responses even wanted to add to the list!), I felt it was my duty to come to the defense of freedom. I probably did go "all eeyore" in my reaction.

 

[HighStickHarry]

No, Harry, I would never go "all eeyore" on you; you are one of my favorite posters. The thing I like about you is you leave no question about what you think. You're a lot like Donald Trump in that way. You hear or read something that evokes an emotional reaction, and out pops your response. It's quite refreshing, actually. Your amygdala is quite strong!

(New paragraph) In my defense I believe you are unfair to accuse me of "going all eeyore." If you are referring to my arguments against Trump's tariffs you have mistaken my passion for the subject as anger. I said what I wanted to say, it evoked a multitude of responses ranging from thoughtful to critical, angry, ad hominem, insulting, rational; it ran the whole gamut. I tried to answer every response in as polite, calm and rational manner as possible. I don't believe I once insulted back.

(New paragraph) If you are referring to my responses to Pancreek's manifesto you have a point. I am a libertarian. For a libertarian the only political principle worth having is individual liberty. Pancreek's manifesto was one of the most anti-liberty statements I have read in quite a while. When the first couple of responses were in basic agreement with him (one of the responses even wanted to add to the list!), I felt it was my duty to come to the defense of freedom. I probably did go "all eeyore" in my reaction.

Eeyore was in reference to the way you respond when attacked. Most of the people around here bring the claws out and I just picture eeyore saying “go ahead and ignore me,” if you say it in the voice it’s funny.

I am like Donald Trump. What I think today could be different than tomorrow and I’ll still believe both.

 

[aix_xpert]

I recognize the similarities, but I think (and maybe I'm wrong) that the fore bearers mentioned likely used common sense and didn't protect every slave just because he or she was a slave. I imagine that they were very quick to prosecute and (likely) eliminate those who committed violent acts and crimes against them, even if they abhored slavery. That's not the case here. We are choosing to protect illegals who commit serious felony acts (DUI Manslaughter was a case in the news this week). And thus you end up with a large portion of the population who just say "F' it, throw them all out".

Most polls clearly show that there is clear middle ground. Protect and ignore those that are innocent of anything but being illegal, and expel those that are a threat or have committed other crimes. Yet sanctuary cities disregard this pretty reasonable thought and go out of their way to protect even those who have committed rape and murder. Sorry, but its hard for me to be a supporter of that position.

 

[CowboyJD]

I recognize the similarities, but I think (and maybe I'm wrong) that the fore bearers mentioned likely used common sense and didn't protect every slave just because he or she was a slave. I imagine that they were very quick to prosecute and (likely) eliminate those who committed violent acts and crimes against them, even if they abhored slavery. That's not the case here. We are choosing to protect illegals who commit serious felony acts (DUI Manslaughter was a case in the news this week). And thus you end up with a large portion of the population who just say "F' it, throw them all out".

Most polls clearly show that there is clear middle ground. Protect and ignore those that are innocent of anything but being illegal, and expel those that are a threat or have committed other crimes. Yet sanctuary cities disregard this pretty reasonable thought and go out of their way to protect even those who have committed rape and murder. Sorry, but its hard for me to be a supporter of that position.

Maybe sanctuary cities disregard your pretty reasonable thought because they believe the feds are ignoring it as well by going after every one including those that are innocent of anything but being illegal.

 

[Ponca Dan]

I recognize the similarities, but I think (and maybe I'm wrong) that the fore bearers mentioned likely used common sense and didn't protect every slave just because he or she was a slave. I imagine that they were very quick to prosecute and (likely) eliminate those who committed violent acts and crimes against them, even if they abhored slavery. That's not the case here. We are choosing to protect illegals who commit serious felony acts (DUI Manslaughter was a case in the news this week). And thus you end up with a large portion of the population who just say "F' it, throw them all out".

Most polls clearly show that there is clear middle ground. Protect and ignore those that are innocent of anything but being illegal, and expel those that are a threat or have committed other crimes. Yet sanctuary cities disregard this pretty reasonable thought and go out of their way to protect even those who have committed rape and murder. Sorry, but its hard for me to be a supporter of that position.

Completely understand your opinion, and pretty much agree with it. I had never made the connection with the Fugitive Slave Act before, and found the similarities interesting and somewhat convincing. I have no idea how the Northerners reacted to runaway slaves that committed crimes. That is a good point.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Eeyore was in reference to the way you respond when attacked. Most of the people around here bring the claws out and I just picture eeyore saying “go ahead and ignore me,” if you say it in the voice it’s funny.

I am like Donald Trump. What I think today could be different than tomorrow and I’ll still believe both.

That’s funny! I hadn’t thought of an attempt to be polite as sounding eeyore-like. I guess it’s in the eye of the beholder (or in the ear of the listener in this case). I think if you knew me you would not find me remotely eeyore-like. Tigger would be more my personality type.

 

[TPOKE]

That’s a fair but broad estimate. Could you expand on how it is far reaching and two extremely different situations? Mainly I’m wondering what principle you are using.

What "principle"? Anyway, here I go, "in case you don't remember your U.S. History". (Thought that was a condescending statement, but at least I made further than @HighStickHarry , who's statement I agree with about "immigration haters", talk about broad.) So slaves, who were torn away from their homeland, put on a ship to possibly die, sold as a commodity into hard labor, raped, beaten, hung and bred like an animal, then ran away to the north to seek freedom are the same as someone who breaks our laws and illegally enters our country? Yes, you assist to round up people for breaking the law, you don't for people brought here against their will. And you sure as hell don't act like there's one similarity between the two.

Honestly? I can't believe I had to answer this for you.

 

[Ponca Dan]

What "principle"? Anyway, here I go, "in case you don't remember your U.S. History". (Thought that was a condescending statement, but at least I made further than @HighStickHarry , who's statement I agree with about "immigration haters", talk about broad.) So slaves, who were torn away from their homeland, put on a ship to possibly die, sold as a commodity into hard labor, raped, beaten, hung and bred like an animal, then ran away to the north to seek freedom are the same as someone who breaks our laws and illegally enters our country? Yes, you assist to round up people for breaking the law, you don't for people brought here against their will. And you sure as hell don't act like there's one similarity between the two.

Honestly? I can't believe I had to answer this for you.

I’m sorry you felt you “had” to answer, but I appreciate that you did. I have had young men from Guatemala work for me in the past (don’t worry, they were here legally). The stories they told of the hell that is Guatemala were horrific. They praised God every morning when they woke up in the land of the free. You can’t see any similarity. More’s the pity. Maybe I see it more clearly because I have been close to some of those “runaways” from Latin America.

Anyway, I found the article to be thought provoking, and thought others on this board might find it so as well. I appreciate that you were willing to read the article and provide your opinion.

 

[TPOKE]

I’m sorry you felt you “had” to answer, but I appreciate that you did. I have had young men from Guatemala work for me in the past (don’t worry, they were here legally). The stories they told of the hell that is Guatemala were horrific. They praised God every morning when they woke up in the land of the free. You can’t see any similarity. More’s the pity. Maybe I see it more clearly because I have been close to some of those “runaways” from Latin America.

Anyway, I found the article to be thought provoking, and thought others on this board might find it so as well. I appreciate that you were willing to read the article and provide your opinion.

Swing and a miss. I don't know how many times I would have to explain it to you.
My story? I live in a small town with a lot of Hispanic population. Every year my wife and I buy/shop for food and gifts, with donations from the church, and from ourselves to fill the need/void, on Thanksgiving and Christmas to give to needy families in our community. In most cases, all are immigrants. We don't judge or ask questions about their legality. The tears, hugs and smiles on the faces from young to old let us know it's the right thing to do.
Don't pity me Dan, I see things quite clearly. Comparing the crime of slavery to illegal immigration to promote a liberal agenda is wrong.
I'm sympathetic, but there's a process to the way things need to be done.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Swing and a miss. I don't know how many times I would have to explain it to you.
My story? I live in a small town with a lot of Hispanic population. Every year my wife and I buy/shop for food and gifts, with donations from the church, and from ourselves to fill the need/void, on Thanksgiving and Christmas to give to needy families in our community. In most cases, all are immigrants. We don't judge or ask questions about their legality. The tears, hugs and smiles on the faces from young to old let us know it's the right thing to do.
Don't pity me Dan, I see things quite clearly. Comparing the crime of slavery to illegal immigration to promote a liberal agenda is wrong.
I'm sympathetic, but there's a process to the way things need to be done.

Fair enough. I don’t pity you, far from it. In fact I agree with you more than you might think. I thought the article had an unusual and somewhat effective point of view. You mentioned a “liberal agenda.” I assure you if you think I am a liberal promoting a liberal agenda you are quite mistaken. I would add that maybe next time you deliver donations from your church you might want to take some time to visit some of those recipients, hear their stories. You might find that even though they may not have escaped slavery some of them may have escaped a life of horror and tragedy. It’s not that far removed - in principle! - from the horrors and tragedy of slavery.