Should we go to war with Russia?
- Thread starter AC2020
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I read his whole string. Maybe I misunderstand him but it sounds like he is saying in the event Russia invades, the American government must support Ukraine with everything it has short of sending troops, must try and make it last as long as it can, sacrificing any as many Ukrainian lives as necessary, just to show Putin he can’t get away with a quick and easy victory. But under no circumstances should America risk the slaughter of its own people. Did I understand him correctly?
One of the other things he points out is that American fighting age population is weak, woke, and distracted. The only chance to stop Russia is Ukraine. But if the US stays home when article 5 is tripped NATO is over. The world will be redrawn and a new age will begin. What it will mean to the world will be unknown.
I am definitely not in the camp that says Ukraine is worth the blood. We need a revamp of our military to bring back strength, and our children to be brought up to be capable of fighting a war. We would get our asses handed to us if we were in a WW situation. We fight when we are capable of bringing it to the enemy. Isolationism may be our only choice if NATO is broken.
Weakness invites conflict . Strength deters it. If war was to be prevented (assuming that is Putins actual objective) then overwhelming force would have needed to be positioned with clear messaging that invasion will be repelled with force.
Barring that, we should be arming Ukraine to the hilt. I would start with M26 or better MLRS cluster munitions. Poland can send its NSM for use on the black sea. Manpads should be sent. Poland should mass troops next to Belarus.
No one should go to war and it is avoided when Hitl ...uhm Putin realizes that he will loose.
But alas we are surrounded by Chamberlains on the left (Biden et al) and right ( all these populists types)
There is no Churchill out there that I see.
Barring that, we should be arming Ukraine to the hilt. I would start with M26 or better MLRS cluster munitions. Poland can send its NSM for use on the black sea. Manpads should be sent. Poland should mass troops next to Belarus.
No one should go to war and it is avoided when Hitl ...uhm Putin realizes that he will loose.
But alas we are surrounded by Chamberlains on the left (Biden et al) and right ( all these populists types)
There is no Churchill out there that I see.
These are talking points straight out of the NeoCon playbook, the one that has snared the US in endless wars for decades, slaughtered millions of lives, decimated people’s home lands, driven our country to the brink of moral and economic bankruptcy, undermined our own liberty and driven a possibly insurmountable wedge between our countrymen. I think, and sincerely hope, the American people will make it clear to the war mongers that it has had enough. It’s time to put to rest our Cold War thinking. If Canadian truckers can drive home to their politicians their fury with Covid tyranny maybe the American people can take the cue and put the cold warriors out to pasture.
If we are drawn into a war the 81 million that voted for the demented old fool need to be the first on the front lines.
Or maybe Neville you are inviting the attack by being weak. Never have I said anything about attacking Russia or firing the first shot.
Unless you are a conspiracy nut what Neocon flew a plane into the WTC. Were you for the war on Sept 12th 2001? I was for the war but I said to co-workers at the time that these kids running off to sign up had no clue and that the average American did not understand that to win this war would take generations and last our lifetimes. I was accused of being a communist LOL!
You MIGHT have a point on Gulf War II.
I could care less about the enemy. If we are bankrupt its because we cared too much about the enemy. We wasted time clearing buildings when good bomb would do the job. We expended energy on purple thumbs when an American friendly Baathist could have done the job on the cheap. Salt the earth and leave them to fend for themselves. Sherman and Patton had it right.
I am not a fan of the neocon urge to nation build. But they half-@ssed that. You got the wrong guy every time you holler neocon. I am a Reaganite who knows peace though strength works and appeasement (see WW2 Mr Chamberlain) doesn't.
Russia and China are our enemies. Period. I wish to defeat them and put them in a box without firing a shot. But that will require bringing a bigger gun to the fight and staring them down nose to nose while working to stay on top economically.
Detente and MFN status for China did not work for Nixon or Clinton. Reagan playing hardball with his 600 ship navy and high tech weapons did.
Putin is a fool if he thinks NATO would attack him. But I do not think he is a fool. Its a farce and a lie used by him to bully his neighbors and force them back into the Russian orbit so as to rebuild the Russian Empire. His demographics are what is motivating him. He has no industrial base and his population is decreasing. He expands or Russia will continue to decline.
I want neither a strong Russia or China until their political realities change. In fact I have a solution. Lets send them Trudeau and Biden to run their countries.
Heysus H. Cripes on a crutch; those two couldn't operate a f*cking manual push plow in tandem, let alone properly run anything resembling a country.
Why would Putin invade Ukraine if it was made clear Ukraine would not be admitted into NATO? It’s already clear Ukraine will not be admitted into NATO, why can’t Antony Blinken just say the words? That “appeasement” is just about all it would take to stop this nonsense.
We are bankrupt because our leaders arrogantly think they have a moral duty to rule the world, and their method of choice is to siphon trillions of American treasure into their pockets while they murder millions of innocent civilians in our name, and get tens of thousands of our own killed, maimed or suicidal. It is disgusting to me that anyone would defend them.
Putin has shown no willingness to recapture the glory days of the old USSR, that is NeoCon Cold War rhetoric that needs to be scrubbed from our vocabulary. IMO anyone that falls for that rubbish has been so thoroughly manipulated he cannot see reality.
Again I will ask you were you for war with Afghanistan on Sept 12th 2001? Did you write your Senator in 2000 about Bin Laden being a problem? I did.
Do you know the date when Afghanistan was lost?
Jan 26 2004!
Again I will ask you why would Putin invade Ukraine if the US/NATO would make it official what everyone already knows unofficially: Ukraine will not be admitted into NATO?
Your guys lost their cozy little money making murder machine in Afghanistan, but the addiction so overpowers them they had to immediately find someplace new, and this time they can ratchet it up to nuclear level maybe. It must be exhilarating! Stay home comfortably in their Georgetown mansions and keep tabs on how many bad guys they killed today, and any innocents are just unfortunate collateral damage. And keep people like you convinced they’re doing the Lord’s work.
Short answer no, long answer hell no. Tired of these old pussies in DC sending young men to do their dirty work.
First off, Russia should not have a say in who is or isn't in NATO. Second, the Ukrainians want to fight and given the proper lethal aid will. The idiot ex-rodent in Kenyan goat herding Chewbacca cousin marrying chief set freakin blankets in 2014. NATO is never going to undertake an invasion of russia and the notion that it would is ridiculous.
Many of these countries suffered greatly under the dam bolsheviks rule and some suffered for centuries. Look up what the Tarters went through under Stalin, or the Ukrainians under Stalin. If russia can claim they need a buffer of protection against invasions why can't other countries claim they need a strong defensive capability to repel a historic enemy? Never forget the russians colluded with the nazis to carve up Poland in 1939.
In my opinion the russian military is probably over hyped and Ukraines not given enough credit. If russia invades they will suffer much like, or worse, then in afghansitan. The thing in afghanistan was the russinas went old testament, someone in a village fire at their helicopter they level the whole village, kill everyone and everything. They won't get away with that here. Ukrainians will fight and create a guerilla war environment that will be very lethal for russians and separatist.
Biden is a moron and projected fully limp dick weakness from the get go and even more so in 2014. My guess is (if they move offensively at all) will be take the Donbas, which is already a separatist state and then stop. They are bleeding the Ukraine government dry financially with the preparations and mobilizations. That maybe the end game anyway. Create an even more inefficient government, foment internal strife and help over throw the government to a more russian friendly group.
Here is where the world had better wake up though. russia hold a a spot on the security council as does china. The un charter should be amended that any member state who invades a sovereign country loses their seat, recognition and committee position immediately as well as any and all funds associated with un projects. You'll know the world is getting serious about peace when that happens.
The treaty of Versailles created the conditions for WWII and the UN since then has created situation after situation where belligerents can do mostly what they want without many, if any, repercussions. Add in feckless NATO and even worse the germans and you have appeasement pie. Time to pull every American out of germany since they are turning into france and move everything to Poland/Hungary/Baltic States or bring everyone home. But regardless of these moves we need to be air dropping weapons and ammunition to Ukrainians who will fight. They don't need us and probably don't want us either. Be nice to see a few brigades of volunteers though from mercenaries around the world fighting for Ukraine.
Also don't discount that the moron biden and his woke band of fools know there will be no invasion, or a very limited move into the Donbas and are trying to turn up the rhetoric and heat, so that when this turns out to be an action wholly not scaled to the threat, they can claim they stopped a wider invasion thorough diplomacy and threats. Not like the media or the rest of the boot licking liberals will call them out.
Lastly, and this is all on that idot Biden. The escalation of energy prices have allowed russia to finance this nonsense. Start more domestic production, even exports and drive prices down. Could promise Canada that keystone would be opened back up if they would quit buying russian oil, some of which ends up being sent to the US.
This is all a side how anyway...the big problem will be china, not russia.
Here's why I think DC (both parties) want to go war to stop Russia.
Ukraine is a money laundering honey pot. Run big $ aid through Ukraine, and certain players get millions in kickback $.
That's the way the game works for an overwhelming majority of politicians in DC. That's how most of them leave with millions in their bank account (among other dirty schemes).
And Ukraine isn't the only country that participates in the crooked $ kickback scheme. It's been happening forever.
Ukraine is a money laundering honey pot. Run big $ aid through Ukraine, and certain players get millions in kickback $.
That's the way the game works for an overwhelming majority of politicians in DC. That's how most of them leave with millions in their bank account (among other dirty schemes).
And Ukraine isn't the only country that participates in the crooked $ kickback scheme. It's been happening forever.
Question: Is war with Russia not eventually inevitable? Liberals have a goal of a unified global society without borders. Countries, like Russia, that value their independence (and have the means to protect it) will stand up to that threat. Eventually the two must clash.
Ironically, the countries most interesting to watch in this scenario are the ones that do value their independence but lack the means to protect it, such as Germany. Watching them try to crawfish around the two sides is kind of comical.
Ironically, the countries most interesting to watch in this scenario are the ones that do value their independence but lack the means to protect it, such as Germany. Watching them try to crawfish around the two sides is kind of comical.
Interesting questions....IMO the inevitable enemy is China. China absolutely has laid previous claims to some of Siberia and the scenario I could see happening is rusia continues to be a side show, china goes for Taiwan and parts of russia, the world needs to/has to stop china and enlists russia as part of a coalition to do so.
It was always my contention we should have never helped the dam Bolsheviks in WWII, or just helped them enough to create a static like WWI trench line across eastern Europe. Enlisting russia to help defeat china is wholly in the realm of possibility and would help russia again become a very dominate power. The cycle would ocntinue.
Interesting comment. Lots to chew on. One question regarding your desire to eliminate any country invading another sovereign nation to lose its spot on the UN Security Council as well as other committee perks. Would it apply to the US for invading Iraq and Afghanistan? Would you be for that?
Wouldn’t you crawfish if you were Germany? They’re the ones who would be on the receiving end of Russian missiles, not to mention freezing their asses off for lack of heating fuel. They’ve knuckled under to every American war policy. Maybe it’s time to stand on their own.
Dan, come on man......germany is in the energy deficit they are in because of the dam greens there and the policies they have enacted on their dumb ass selves. They have shut down the nuclear reactors (its okay to still get get nuclear energy from france though) and bought into this BS wind and solar power and now are reaping what the sowed. They put themselves in the position to have their asses frozen and I hope it comes true. Idiots!
Russian missles....seriously? Sometimes you are given to hyperbole hugely. The german military sucks and if you want to take the time to read about what they have (looks semi-impressive) versus what actually is combat ready (pathetic) why would the russians destroy that infrastructure? What are they going to blow up wind farms and solar panels? They build a world class economy off of US protection and neglected their military all along, knowing that by being in NATO everyone would have their backs. Time to tell them to FO and protect yourself.
the dam germans have lived under the protection of America since 1945...so screw them. If they have knuckled under US military policies then tough shit, its the price you pay for having your freedoms bought with the blood and treasury of democracies. Do you have any idea how many jobs and how much money gets dumped into the german economy because of the US installation there?
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But its funny, after years of watching Merkel and Germany tell everyone else in the EU who the boss really is, they get to see who the boss REALLY is.
Absolutely it should....both of those wars were a fools errand. The crime was that we don't enforce our own immigration laws which would have skunked out the 9/11 people. I've long been a proponent for not being in the UN. But yes, if we invaded a sovereign nation without a treaty obligation to do so or a general declaration of war because of national interests, you bet I'm for it.
You’re preaching to the choir, Brother. But don’t neglect the lessons that should have been learned by WW1. It would appear they have been forgotten by our war machine elitists.
Just saw an interesting headline, but only scanned the article, will get back to it later. A British ambassador says this whole thing could be avoided if Ukraine would withdraw its bid to join NATO. Since Ukraine is the country that might get blown into the Dark Ages should a war ensue, it would seem a prescient thing for them to do.
I didn't think they had even applied yet. Its hard to withdraw an application that hasn't actually been submitted.
Like I said I just saw the headline and glanced at the article. But even if Ukraine has not officially applied, wouldn’t it be prudent of them to publicly announce a moratorium that they will not apply? Seems the life they are living now would be preferable to life during and after an unnecessary war.
Who are these US handlers and why did they let the President of Ukraine publicly tell Biden to shut up?
Hmmm April seems like the deadline for Putin because of the land to ship missiles.
They also need to ramp up their indigenous cluster munitions and it looks like they may have a version of the HGV soon. Bet they wish that they never given up their nukes.
Pooty will see a non NATO ballistic missile state right on his border soon. I wonder if Ukraine retains any nuke making capability? The constraint of EU/NATO membership might not look bad to Pooty if Ukraine could nuke Moscow.
www.19fortyfive.com
They also need to ramp up their indigenous cluster munitions and it looks like they may have a version of the HGV soon. Bet they wish that they never given up their nukes.
Pooty will see a non NATO ballistic missile state right on his border soon. I wonder if Ukraine retains any nuke making capability? The constraint of EU/NATO membership might not look bad to Pooty if Ukraine could nuke Moscow.
A Russia-Ukraine War: A Missile and Artillery Battle Like No Other?
Does Ukraine Have Stand-off Strike Capabilities to Counter Russia’s Missiles and Artillery?: There is a significant possibility that the buildup of Russian forces around Ukraine may herald a new invasion in the coming days and weeks. One especially notable aspect of Ukraine’s vulnerability to...
www.19fortyfive.com
April? When did the NeoCons shift the invasion date to April? I thought it was supposed to be tomorrow.Hmmm April seems like the deadline for Putin because of the land to ship missiles.
They also need to ramp up their indigenous cluster munitions and it looks like they may have a version of the HGV soon. Bet they wish that they never given up their nukes.
Pooty will see a non NATO ballistic missile state right on his border soon. I wonder if Ukraine retains any nuke making capability? The constraint of EU/NATO membership might not look bad to Pooty if Ukraine could nuke Moscow.
A Russia-Ukraine War: A Missile and Artillery Battle Like No Other?
Does Ukraine Have Stand-off Strike Capabilities to Counter Russia’s Missiles and Artillery?: There is a significant possibility that the buildup of Russian forces around Ukraine may herald a new invasion in the coming days and weeks. One especially notable aspect of Ukraine’s vulnerability to...
No that is when Ukraine will be able to field its land to sea missiles with 180 mi range. And by 2025 they will have indigenous SRBMs possibly capable of hitting Moscow.
If Putin is going to invade the Ukraine, why all the waiting? In 2-3 months, Russia's premier economic advantage (the EU's dependency on NG for heating) will go away. In addition, the longer the delays, the more defensive a posture the Ukraine can present to such an invasion. So if this invasion is such a foregone conclusions (as the White House and MSM have implied), what's Putin waiting on?
Oh, thank God! Maybe the US military elites can convince them to launch a few warheads toward Moscow and kill a bunch of those commie bastards for them! The perfect proxy war! The US can feign complete innocence and surprise that their non-NATO NATO ally did for them what they’ve always wanted to do. And people like you can cheer and feel vindicated! It’s a win for everybody but the people that are killed and injured. But who cares about that?
Here is my thing. If we go to war with Russia then I want Russia. I don't just want to liberate the Ukrainians I want to then go into Russia and take over their country. We get their money, products, and people. We then eliminate a superpower and basically let China know FU try it.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Let’s liberate Ukraine and then attack Russia, overwhelm and conquer it, confiscate what little wealth its people have, which would be okay because we’ll enslave them on top of everything else. We have such a pristine record of winning wars against lesser competition it would be a cakewalk to take on someone with the means to fight back. Why not? We’re liberators, right? The world loves the way we liberate people, right? I say let’s do it!
No conquers conquer bitches bitch. If you fight then go get something out of it. That was my exact words if you must know. Never elect me POTUS ever. First day I am nuking NK. Second Day I am tea bagging Xi.
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