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Scuffle.

I’m not evaluating I’m a fan who wants the wrestlers to win . If you come on the forum and nitpick every wrestler on the roster . You should be subjected to the same . It’s no Ill will towards Harley . It’s easy to be negative then say I hope I’m wrong though.
Ok, but we all want the wrestlers to win. I doubt anyone wants that more than Harley. And he gives credit when the wrestlers & team perform well.

People don't like reading negative posts, I get that. And I do think there's a fine line when being critical about specific wrestlers. I'm sure the parents of current and possible future wrestlers read this board. We even had an instance when a parent responded to a poster. But what's maybe worse IMO is an echo chamber. Where people are reluctant to say anything critical, even about the coaching staff and the administration.
 
Ok, but we all want the wrestlers to win. I doubt anyone wants that more than Harley. And he gives credit when the wrestlers & team perform well.

People don't like reading negative posts, I get that. And I do think there's a fine line when being critical about specific wrestlers. I'm sure the parents of current and potential wrestlers read this board. We even had an instance when a parent responded to a poster. But what's maybe worse IMO is an echo chamber. Where people are reluctant to say anything critical, even about the coaching staff and the administration.
He can say what he wants. When he says true freshman aren’t going to be good wrestlers or Voinvich etc. I think he discredits the hard work and how good you have to be to wrestle D1 in general . If he wants to be an a$$ that’s ok . Being critical of the coaching an administration is another topic.
 
He can say what he wants. When he says true freshman aren’t going to be good wrestlers or Voinvich etc. I think he discredits the hard work and how good you have to be to wrestle D1 in general . If he wants to be an a$$ that’s ok . Being critical of the coaching an administration is another topic.
So you went from bearing no ill will to him being an a$$?

Good grief. He basically said that right now he doesn't see a top 4 wrestler in the 2021 & 2022 recruiting classes. Is it early to say that? Sure, but it's an opinion. You once replied to me that a heavyweight Luke Surber would keep Jimmy Mullen on the Cowboy bench until after Luke graduates. That was an opinion too.
 
So you went from bearing no ill will to him being an a$$?

Good grief. He basically said that right now he doesn't see a top 4 wrestler in the 2021 & 2022 recruiting classes. Is it early to say that? Sure, but it's an opinion. You once replied to me that a heavyweight Luke Surber would keep Jimmy Mullen on the Cowboy bench until after Luke graduates. That was an opinion too.
I thought I would add a little Mike Gundy humor lol. I know he is your friend and there is no Ill will .
 
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You have said similar things about Plott in the past . Maybe you aren’t really really good at evaluating talent .
Yes, I love it that Plott jumped a level at the end of the year and became an All American. The shoulder surgery appears to have been a good move and is not limiting Dustin like the shoulder limited him so much in his true freshman year. I don't see me insulting these wrestlers because I am saying now they appear to be good division 1 wrestlers who will rank in their careers somewhere between 6th through 20. Any of us on this forum would have given our eye teeth to be that good. My point is to win 35 we can't have 2 real good wrestlers on the team and expect to finish in the top 10 even. As I see it a real good wrestler as a redshirt freshman should be beating guys who are rated in the top 12. Wittlake was doing that as a redshirt freshman, of course Daton was and Plott started doing that at the end of his 2nd year. You are right about true freshmen often jump a level right after that 1st year in college. But I did think that Jordan Williams even as a true freshman would be wrestling better and winning more matches than he has. I hope he jumps that level or 2 by next year and takes and dominates either 149 or 157. I was too harsh with Haas but his decision making last week stunned me. Maybe it was a bad day for him. Dugan I really hope that all of these guys prove me wrong and become real good wrestlers and then we can challenge Penn. St. With our current performance and development everyone at Penn. St looks at us as way back in the day has beens. I don't like that and I express that opinion on this board a lot. I always appreciate my buddy Wrassler defending free speech on this board
 
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Yes, I love it that Plott jumped a level at the end of the year and became an All American. The shoulder surgery appears to have been a good move and is not limiting Dustin like the shoulder limited him so much in his true freshman year. I don't see me insulting these wrestlers because I am saying now they appear to be good division 1 wrestlers who will rank in their careers somewhere between 6th through 20. Any of us on this forum would have given our eye teeth to be that good. My point is to win 35 we can't have 2 real good wrestlers on the team and expect to finish in the top 10 even. As I see it a real good wrestler as a redshirt freshman should be beating guys who are rated in the top 12. Wittlake was doing that as a redshirt freshman, of course Daton was and Plott started doing that at the end of his 2nd year. You are right about true freshmen often jump a level right after that 1st year in college. But I did think that Jordan Williams even as a true freshman would be wrestling better and winning more matches than he has. I hope he jumps that level or 2 by next year and takes and dominates either 149 or 157. I was too harsh with Haas but his decision making last week stunned me. Maybe it was a bad day for him. Dugan I really hope that all of these guys prove me wrong and become real good wrestlers and than we can challenge Penn. St. With our current performance and development everyone at Penn. St looks at us as way back in the day has beens. I don't like that and I express that opinion on this board a lot. I always appreciate my buddy Wrassler defending free speech on this board
How would you evaluate those duck unders Jordon Williams was hitting on the ND wrestler? I know that’s his signature move but it was pretty exciting seeing him hit it on a good college wrestler.
 
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He can say what he wants. When he says true freshman aren’t going to be good wrestlers or Voinvich etc. I think he discredits the hard work and how good you have to be to wrestle D1 in general . If he wants to be an a$$ that’s ok . Being critical of the coaching an administration is another topic.
I don't remember ever saying these guys weren't good wrestlers. I say we have lots of good wrestlers but we need a lot more real good wrestlers. We have 2 real good wrestlers ( place in top 4) Daton has, I think Plott will. Wittlake has placed in the top 4 as a redshirt freshman but injuries has stopped the progression of his career so I don't see him as real good right now but I do see him as good. Example of my concern is our best red shirt freshman Voinovich is rated rated 30th by Flo and Penn. St. redshirt freshman Vann Ness is rated 13th. To be honest I should probably surrender that we will be able to beat Penn St or Iowa heck we may not win the Big 12 for a while with Missouri in our conference now. 2024 recruiting class gives a bit of hope but if we can't develop enough real good wrestlers there is not any hope of 35. It stuns me that anyone is satisfied with the performance of our team overall for the last 16 years.
 
That’s not true though Ferrari won a National Championship. I know he isn’t on the team anymore.Surber made to the Big 12 finals last year looks to be wrestling the best of his career right now . Mastro has a problem getting of bottom and hopefully he can fix that.
I didn’t include Ferrari as he’s not part of the team and won’t be in the future. Surber is interesting. 197 obviously suits him far better than 285. My expectations are a lot higher than the Big12 finals. We need AAs. Numerous high AAs of we’re going to compete for 35. Plott is the only young wrestler we can definitely place on that path. That is not enough.

Rankings coming out of high school.

Mastro 24
Surber 54
Plott 2
Doucet 10
Young 11

Young beat Seth Gross in 2021 btw. The talent appears to be there. We must do a better job of high level development imo.
 
How would you evaluate those duck unders Jordon Williams was hitting on the ND wrestler? I know that’s his signature move but it was pretty exciting seeing him hit it on a good college wrestler.
Jordan Williams has an unbelievable duck under where his opponents don't even seem to know where he went. He hit several in his match with March but I see him lose focus and in the March match he limped a little when they separated. I thought will he focus on something not being 100% and mess up. Right away he got taken down and turned on his back. He did fight his way back to lose a close match but that big drop in performance when something doesn't go right concerns me. Does he have the potential to be a real good wrestler? Yes he does, but will he become an obstacle to his success.
 
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I think its fine to be critical of guys when it is warranted. Not to be critical of who they are but specifically what they show you on the mat. Every fan of every sport and team does this. Not saying anyone on here has been, but you don't need to be a jerk to express your frustration or opinions though.

For example, Mastro and Young. Two highly recruited guys that up to this point have wrestled under expectations. Young showed us all that he had something special at the trials a couple of years ago. Maybe that was a fluke but we know what a great wrestler looks like on the mat and if that can translate to AA material. Young has really struggled with certain things in his matches that frustrate the hell out of you, getting off bottom, aggressiveness, finishing shots. Will those things get better with time or is he just at the wrong weight? I don't know, but when you see him just curl up on bottom and get ridden for the entire period that's going to attract some critics. That's not what you want to see from a young wrestler who had a ton of hype coming in.

Mastro IMO had a nice true freshmen season where he showed some things that gave us all hope that within a couple of years (now present) he would be in AA talks. Mastro appears to me to actually be on the decline since then. If it is injuries or weight cut whatever it is obvious that the way he is wrestling this season isn't putting himself in a good position to AA or in the near future. Because Mastro and Young haven't lived up to the expectations of everyone on this board people get frustrated and negative and critical. Nobody on this board or anywhere else knows how they will finish the season or in the next couple of years. We can only judge what we have seen and make predictions accordingly.
 
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I admit that I am not really, really good at evaluating talent I am just really good. Just joking with you.
Harley, Flo had an interview with Zeke Jones a couple of weeks ago and he used your wording.

He was talking about ASU being a top 5 team and what it would take to get to #1. Instead of saying "elite recruits", he said we need a couple more "really good" recruits and then we need to develop what we have in the room.
 
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In the interview with Pendleton on the podcast, he mentioned that they pulled in the #1 recruiting class while he was an assistant there... and it really didn't yield any results on the mat. So it's not just getting them in the room, it's understanding who they are and getting them to the level that they need to be at to win titles. Said he learned that it's just as important to invest time in the guys when they get on campus as it was to invest time and money into the recruiting process.
 
I didn’t include Ferrari as he’s not part of the team and won’t be in the future. Surber is interesting. 197 obviously suits him far better than 285. My expectations are a lot higher than the Big12 finals. We need AAs. Numerous high AAs of we’re going to compete for 35. Plott is the only young wrestler we can definitely place on that path. That is not enough.

Rankings coming out of high school.

Mastro 24
Surber 54
Plott 2
Doucet 10
Young 11

Young beat Seth Gross in 2021 btw. The talent appears to be there. We must do a better job of high level development imo.
Doucet was nowhere near the 10 P4P wrestler in the country and probably not even at his weight.
 
WeightNameFlo RankMatScouts RankAverageClass
125Trevor Mastrogiovanni1321172020
133Daton Fix1112017
141Carter Young1911152021
149/157Victor Voinovich121513.52021
149/157Jordan Williams1210112022
149/157Travis Mastrogiovanni3921302021
165Wyatt Sheets5252522017
174Dustin Plott1126.52020
184Travis Wittlake6662018
184/197Kyle Haas183727.52021
197Luke Surber284335.52020
285Konner Doucet78110942020
285Christian Carroll121.52023
133Cael Hughes2220212023
174Brayden Thompson4652023
197Jersey Robb6353582023
133Sam Smith1981982023
184AJ Heeg3240362023
125Beric Jordan17172024
125Kolter Burton62622024
 
WeightNameFlo RankMatScouts RankAverageClass
125Trevor Mastrogiovanni1321172020
133Daton Fix1112017
141Carter Young1911152021
149/157Victor Voinovich121513.52021
149/157Jordan Williams1210112022
149/157Travis Mastrogiovanni3921302021
165Wyatt Sheets5252522017
174Dustin Plott1126.52020
184Travis Wittlake6662018
184/197Kyle Haas183727.52021
197Luke Surber284335.52020
285Konner Doucet78110942020
285Christian Carroll121.52023
133Cael Hughes2220212023
174Brayden Thompson4652023
197Jersey Robb6353582023
133Sam Smith1981982023
184AJ Heeg3240362023
125Beric Jordan17172024
125Kolter Burton62622024
This is minor and really just an FYI, but Surber ended up #63 on Flo's final 2020 Big Board. I remember it because he came back from an injury his senior year (hand I think) and took a close loss to Picklo. For some reason Flo really punished him for it and dropped him way down.
 
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