School Shootings

[Ponca Dan]

Briefly watched the student marches calling for gun confiscation yesterday. It got me thinking about the subject. I googled about school shootings over the years and came across this listing. It is obvious that school shootings have taken place for as long as there have been guns. But there is little doubt that “mass shootings/killings” at schools are in the upswing. It looks like the first mass killing took place at the U. of Texas in 1966 when Whitman murdered 16 people from the Texas Tower. The 70’s were bad ang things have slowly gotten worse over the years. It does seem to be at epidemic proportions in 2018.

What baffles me is why this is happening. The knee jerk reaction is to blame guns and call for gun confiscation. But guns have been around forever, and school mass killings are only a recent phenomenon. So we can’t blame guns, can we? There seems to be a defect in the psyche at work. What has happened in the last 30 - 40 years that has led to this? What is causing this psychosis?

Any ideas?

 

[Ponca Dan]

Oops! Forgot to put up the link!

http://www.k12academics.com/school-shootings/history-school-shootings-united-states

 

[osu_orangestreak]

I saw one study that concluded that the only difference between us and other countries is the number of guns. 12% of world population and we have 44% of world guns.

We must lower that number.

 

[Ponca Dan]

I saw one study that concluded that the only difference between us and other countries is the number of guns. 12% of world population and we have 44% of world guns.

We must lower that number.

What do you think that would accomplish?

 

[Ponca Dan]

What do you think that would accomplish?

What explains this, in your opinion?http://www.businessinsider.com/swit...&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=allverticals

 

[HanAholeSolo2.0]

I saw one study that concluded that the only difference between us and other countries is the number of guns. 12% of world population and we have 44% of world guns.

We must lower that number.

why?

 

[PokeMBA]

We teach memorization of certain subjects in our education system and we don't teach the universal idea of love, respect, and treating one another the same.

 

[TPOKE]

If the kid had mowed down 20 kids with car waiting to cross the street or board a bus after school, we wouldn't be talking about the car.

 

[HanAholeSolo2.0]

why aren’t we talking about what actually worked in Maryland instead of more and more restrictions on innocent American citizens?

why aren’t we looking at what has changed culturally and in the treatment of mental health disorders? those things have changed since the 50’s while gun ownership has not.

 

[osu_orangestreak]

Dan cites the research:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html

 

[AC_Exotic]

Gun control won't fix the problem.

Lots of schools (If not all) in Oklahoma have followed the Maryland model with at least one armed officer on campus.

 

[TPOKE]

Has zero to do with the number of guns. We've declined in morality and compassion and have become a more angry and uncaring population. This comes from the break down of family values, parenting, violence kids are exposed to at a young age and Godless people.

 

[osu_orangestreak]

Europe, Russia and China are Godless nations devoid of morality They don't have this problem.

 

[TPOKE]

Europe, Russia and China are Godless nations devoid of morality They don't have this problem.

Living in a country like Russia and China would be so awesome.

 

[NZ Poke]

 

[Ponca Dan]

Dan cites the research:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html

My primary point is I don’t think the accessibility to guns is the problem. Guns have always been readily available, but these mass shootings seem to be a relatively new problem. If it was gun accessibility wouldn’t Switzerland have a similar problem to America? Even a little? If it isn’t access to guns then what is it? What has taken place in the last few years that has sparked this uptick? I believe we all want to see these killings come to an end. But if we argue over the wrong culprit - guns - we’ll not see it end unless or until we become a tyrannical police state, much like Russia and China. I don’t think any of us are wanting that conclusion. We need to focus on what is causing these young men to become unhinged.

 

[NZ Poke]

Has zero to do with the number of guns. We've declined in morality and compassion and have become a more angry and uncaring population. This comes from the break down of family values, parenting, violence kids are exposed to at a young age and Godless people.

Take 10 minutes and watch this video.

This couple has directed music videos watched by everyone under the age of 50 (so everyone's kids, grandkids etc) -- and television commercials for most major brands.

If anyone wants an idea of exactly who is helping create our information diet, introducing darkness into our culture, making people deranged, depressed etc -- this is a great couple to know about.

 

[Pancreek1]

The massive increase in mass shootings over the past 25 years, in my humble opinion, ties directly to the loss of value of human life. These generations are completely desensitized to the value of human life. Combine that with the deteriorating number of nuclear families (and i'm not talking about divorce, I'm talking about both parents being involved regardless of marriage) and you have a recipe for disaster.

 

[Medic007]

Europe, Russia and China are Godless nations devoid of morality They don't have this problem.

Really...

Tell us more.

 

[Headhunter]

In my youth a kid like Cruze in Florida would of been locked up in Vinita or some other nut house.

 

[Ponca Dan]

In my youth a kid like Cruze in Florida would of been locked up in Vinita or some other nut house.

To be honest I have not followed the personal biographies of these mass murderers. But I think many if not most of them would not have been thought capable of what they did until they did it. It doesn’t seem to be a long standing mental disorder that was diagnosed for years but ignored. For many of them it came out of the blue. If that’s true, what do you think caused them to go haywire and do these cowardly things?

 

[Headhunter]

I don't know about most shootings but I do know that in Florida the first thing out of everyone's mouth was "he finally did it". Everyone knew this kid was very unbalanced and all they did was suspend him from school.

There are a lot of adults that need to be hung out to dry. I'd start with the school administration, county sheriff and work all the way up to the FBI.

It's total bullsh!t to scream gun control then hold no one responsible.

 

[TPOKE]

Gun control won't fix the problem.

Lots of schools (If not all) in Oklahoma have followed the Maryland model with at least one armed officer on campus.

I agree 100%. The presence of a gun has a better chance of deterring a shooter than not.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but how does a shooter walk into a school? My wife is a teacher and the doors are locked at all times and you have to be buzzed in to gain access.

 

[Headhunter]

I agree 100%. The presence of a gun has a better chance of deterring a shooter than not.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but how does a shooter walk into a school? My wife is a teacher and the doors are locked at all times and you have to be buzzed in to gain access.

I've been wondering about this and why school administration isn't getting roasted. He walked right in, how in the hell does a school in this day and age allow that to happen?

Most office buildings have tighter security than this high school did.

 

[HanAholeSolo2.0]

@Ponca Dan
I know you are a highly intelligent philosopher who values discussion and reason.

however, that should be used on people not yet ideologically invested in gun control.

once they arrive at the point where “we must lower that number (of guns)” they must be defeated politically, not convinced.

you know what’s at stake re: the second amendment. make no mistake, they do too.

 

[Ponca Dan]

I appreciate your comment. One of the first things I linked on this board lo many months ago was an opinion piece by Albert J. Nock from last century. I’ll link it again here for you. It has been my guidepost for how to conduct myself in discussion for a very long time. I’ll leave the political infighting for others.

https://mises.org/library/isaiahs-job

 

[TPOKE]

Infighting? I don't see any in this thread.

 

[NZ Poke]

Have you all seen this new Apple commercial? It’s on TV a lot.

Something is quite disturbing about this strung out looking white girl — and the weird vintage music.






Am seeing this white girl archtype in other commercials too — for example, the second half of this Samsung commercial (from 38 seconds in) — she’s almost a mirror image of the girl in the Apple commercial.







FYI....

Source: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/girls-suicide-rates-rise-dramatically/

 

[AC_Exotic]

One of the Parkland survivors that spoke at the rally has admitted bullying the shooter in school.

Not to excuse his behavior, but it sounds like a school mob bullying mentality played a major role in pushing the kid over the ledge.

 

[wyomingosualum]

Europe, Russia and China are Godless nations devoid of morality They don't have this problem.

CHINA: On the same day as the Sandy Hook shooting happened, some wacko in China went into a school and stabbed a bunch of people. Mass stabbing incidents occur frequently there. https://www.google.com/search?q=mass+stabbings+china&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

RUSSIA: Just last month, a guy with a rifle killed several people in a Russian church. There’s more, but none compare with the Beslan school incident, where over 300 people were killed: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege

 

[HanAholeSolo2.0]

CHINA: On the same day as the Sandy Hook shooting happened, some wacko in China went into a school and stabbed a bunch of people. Mass stabbing incidents occur frequently there. https://www.google.com/search?q=mass+stabbings+china&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

RUSSIA: Just last month, a guy with a rifle killed several people in a Russian church. There’s more, but none compare with the Beslan school incident, where over 300 people were killed: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege

add in actual terror attacks with rifles trucks bombs etc in europe and focus on mass violence in general

 

[wyomingosualum]

add in actual terror attacks with rifles trucks bombs etc in europe and focus on mass violence in general

It happens.

 

[CBradSmith]

@Ponca Dan
I know you are a highly intelligent philosopher who values discussion and reason.

however, that should be used on people not yet ideologically invested in gun control.

once they arrive at the point where “we must lower that number (of guns)” they must be defeated politically, not convinced.

you know what’s at stake re: the second amendment. make no mistake, they do too.

Correct.

No need to "discuss" a topic when the other person "believes" in absolutes. Oh, you can test their resolve, their adherence to their newfound Divine, but be pragmatic about ever persuading a true believer. Use your time appropriately.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Correct.

No need to "discuss" a topic when the other person "believes" in absolutes. Oh, you can test their resolve, their adherence to their newfound Divine, but be pragmatic about ever persuading a true believer. Use your time appropriately.

I'll refer you to the Albert J. Nock link I posted above. There may be people "lurking" but not discussing that might find what I say to be of some small value. I keep telling people that for those who find my opinions to be tiresome there is no need to read them. I'm not really interested in reaching them anyway.

 

[Been Jammin]

I've been wondering about this and why school administration isn't getting roasted. He walked right in, how in the hell does a school in this day and age allow that to happen?

Most office buildings have tighter security than this high school did.

Surely you and your wife are not this naive. There are plenty of ways to get into a school that has that system.

-Go to the door. Give a legit sounding reason as to why you are there. (like "I need to pick up a copy of my transcript"). Get buzzed in. Start shooting.

-Wait for an exit door to open as someone comes out. Go in before the door closes. Start shooting.

-Knock on a locked exterior door. When a friendly student opens it and lets you in, start shooting.

-Arrange for a buddy to let you in. Start shooting.

-Shoot/Kick the glass portion of the door. Reach inside to open it. Start shooting.

Ask your wife if any of those would work at her school.

With that said, the Florida school appears to be one where there are multiple buildings and students walk between them as they are going to different classes. Like a college campus. (My son's high school is like this). There is no security for the outlying buildings. It is not realistic without major changes to the entries.

 

[GunsOfFrankEaton]

 

[CBradSmith]

Lol

 

[HanAholeSolo2.0]

Surely you and your wife are not this naive. There are plenty of ways to get into a school that has that system.

-Go to the door. Give a legit sounding reason as to why you are there. (like "I need to pick up a copy of my transcript"). Get buzzed in. Start shooting.

-Wait for an exit door to open as someone comes out. Go in before the door closes. Start shooting.

-Knock on a locked exterior door. When a friendly student opens it and lets you in, start shooting.

-Arrange for a buddy to let you in. Start shooting.

-Shoot/Kick the glass portion of the door. Reach inside to open it. Start shooting.

Ask your wife if any of those would work at her school.

With that said, the Florida school appears to be one where there are multiple buildings and students walk between them as they are going to different classes. Like a college campus. (My son's high school is like this). There is no security for the outlying buildings. It is not realistic without major changes to the entries.

what these all have in common is a choke point of access and in most cases a pause at said choke point, with a weapon and possibly body armor

 

[HanAholeSolo2.0]

great parenting.

 

[Been Jammin]

what these all have in common is a choke point of access and in most cases a pause at said choke point, with a weapon and possibly body armor

Since you had to qualify with "in most cases"...

You admit that counting on basic school security to keep a determined shooter out is probably not a wise course of action. You are talking about huge buildings with huge numbers of kids/staff that need to enter/exit frequently. Just not realistic to expect 1 secure, main entrance to be much of a deterrent.