RTC thought
- Thread starter OHkie
- Start date
seems like that would make the scholarships go further. But don't we already have deals with some of the states? I know UNT offers a deal where OK kids pay in-state tuition, maybe that is unilateral.
Yeah, I would be shocked if this isn't already happening. A lot of schools offer instate to kids just across the border. The bigger problem is while our bordering states do have some talent they aren't hot beds. We probably get our pick of Kansas, New Mexico and Texas as is (save Bo).
I am a casual observer. So can someone give me a rundown of the whole RTC thing? Is it basically a school sponsored club to fund wrestlers after college? Do they only fund wrestlers who are from that school?
Yes and no. It is a school sponsored club that funds athletes. So it's sort of like being assigned to a professional sports team. But the wrestlers they sponsor aren't necessarily from that school.
They aren't really sponsored by the school but are an independent entity that is affiliated with a university. They will hire a head coach and then "sponsor" senior level athletes to train and compete for the club. The benifit for the affiliated university is they get another high level coach involved with their strident athletes and those strident athletes have more high level senior wreslters to train with. It also allows college coaches to use the potential of $$ post graduation by promising spots at the RTC.
It's also good for the community as it gives young athletes a top end wrestling club to train at. It's going to continue be a clear dividing aspect of the haves and have nots in college wrestling.
Seems like something that is against the rules in any other sport. Do these clubs want the best possible senior level athletes? Or do they only try to pick kids from affiliated school? I only ask because it seems our best wrestlers find somewhere to wrestle after school. So a coach can promise a kid a spot or $ but only if that kid is legit after 4 years.
There are plenty of wrestling people who think it is no question illegal in the eyes of the NCAA but operates in enough of a grey area and within a sport that doesn't move the needle that the NCAA has turned a blind eye.
This is why some have said Coach Smith has been reluctant to dive head first into the fully funded RTC's and their impact on recruiting.
A coach can promise a kid anything but those with more to promise are going to have a better offer.
Recruits cannot be promised any sort of compensation that is contingent on picking a particular school. That would be an NCAA violation and while many have alleged that to be happening, there is no proof of that to this point. As has been pointed out, many wrestlers have gone to one school, then ended up at another's RTC. However, it would be foolish to think that those programs with a well-funded RTC aren't at an advantage. You don't need to promise a thing for recruits to notice who has the money to keep their best around and who doesn't. Add in the ability to train with world champions while still in college and it is a massive advantage even if no one is bending the rules.
The other side to the recruiting advantage is that high school kids can train at RTCs if they live within 250 miles and meet certain criteria (usually placing high enough at their state tournament). This gives RTCs in recruiting hotbeds the ability to build relationships with wrestlers in their area before they otherwise would be able to.
The other side to the recruiting advantage is that high school kids can train at RTCs if they live within 250 miles and meet certain criteria (usually placing high enough at their state tournament). This gives RTCs in recruiting hotbeds the ability to build relationships with wrestlers in their area before they otherwise would be able to.
RTCs in a (not so small) nutshell...
In November 2017, Daniel Kerkvliet de-committed from Minny and committed to us. It made sense for a lot of reasons...
- his value was up after having won a Cadet World title 2 months earlier
- we had a ton of scholarship $ available with a bunch of seniors graduating
- he projected to 285 instead of 197 (Gable Steveson had already committed to Minny in March 2017)
- all the other major programs had a 285 signed (PSU - Seth Nevills, Iowa - Tony Cassioppi, Michigan - Mason Parris, tOSU - Chase Singletary)
In July 2018 Kerkvliet de- committed from us. Was it because we couldn't offer enough scholly $. Nope. Was it because we can't develop NCAA champions? Nope. Was it because we can't develop Olympic gold medalists? Nope.
Here's an explanation from the father of another top 5 PFP recruit...
https://iowa.forums.rivals.com/threads/kerkvliet-reopens-recruiting.237659/page-5#post-5559321
In November 2017, Daniel Kerkvliet de-committed from Minny and committed to us. It made sense for a lot of reasons...
- his value was up after having won a Cadet World title 2 months earlier
- we had a ton of scholarship $ available with a bunch of seniors graduating
- he projected to 285 instead of 197 (Gable Steveson had already committed to Minny in March 2017)
- all the other major programs had a 285 signed (PSU - Seth Nevills, Iowa - Tony Cassioppi, Michigan - Mason Parris, tOSU - Chase Singletary)
In July 2018 Kerkvliet de- committed from us. Was it because we couldn't offer enough scholly $. Nope. Was it because we can't develop NCAA champions? Nope. Was it because we can't develop Olympic gold medalists? Nope.
Here's an explanation from the father of another top 5 PFP recruit...
https://iowa.forums.rivals.com/threads/kerkvliet-reopens-recruiting.237659/page-5#post-5559321
Embarrassing for us to fall so far behind the frontrunners on so many fronts of wrestling. Hopefully that changes soon. Oklahoma State can not support a top wrestler who has world class wrestling goals over time.
While it's not outright illegal the close affiliation of an amateur sports entity (University) and a professional organization would likely be deemed a violation in some fashion in the eyes of the NCAA if this was beginning to occur in one of the major sports (football or basketball).
I think if challenged and investigated RTC's would have to drastically change in several ways. Now I don't know if that will ever happen and while it is in this grey area stage we must join in and take advantage or we will be left further behind.
As much as the RTC structure is new, the use of post-grad wrestling clubs to enhance recruiting/training isn't new to college wrestling at all. The Hawkeye Wrestling Club has been around since 1973. Sunkist Kids since 1976. The Nittany Lion Wrestling Club was founded in the early 90s. The Gator Wrestling Club, which supported several Oklahoma State post grads, was founded in 2001. The money is bigger now, but the issues raised here have been around.
I remember one story I read somewhere about the Hawkeye Wrestling Club in Gable's early days. They were having practice for the club and practice for the college team at the same time and someone told them they couldn't intermingle them. So, they put up a curtain to divide the room and Gable would stand where he could see both sides. Maybe the NCAA will eventually try to restrict them (though if there is legal pushback, there is no guarantee any restrictions would hold up), but they haven't bothered in any meaningful way for a long, long time.
I remember one story I read somewhere about the Hawkeye Wrestling Club in Gable's early days. They were having practice for the club and practice for the college team at the same time and someone told them they couldn't intermingle them. So, they put up a curtain to divide the room and Gable would stand where he could see both sides. Maybe the NCAA will eventually try to restrict them (though if there is legal pushback, there is no guarantee any restrictions would hold up), but they haven't bothered in any meaningful way for a long, long time.
One advantage we will never make up is our 250 mile radius. No matter how much we sink into our RTC that is an advantage we just can't compete with.
IMO the $ being bigger today is the key difference. I know John has said that when he was training in the late 80s/early 90s, he forced himself to live on a $1000/month budget. That was for everything - rent, food, entertainment. As a comparison, the president of the Iowa RTC said (estimated) a couple of years back that a 2x champ like Imar would get a $150K contract over 2 years ($75K/year). With endorsements plus camps & clinics, I would imagine the top guys are making well over a $100K now. That potentially allows someone to take a smaller scholarship because he can pay back the difference later.
Also, I'm not begrudging anyone. I'm all for people earning as much as they can. I'd love to see wrestlers make even more money. My point is that this model has fundamentally altered the college landscape.
So will these continue to be allowed or will the NCAA do something about these? Sure many aren’t completely on the up and up.
I don't think the NCAA cares or has the resources to care. Right now it is good for the sport although I do think it could eventually end up stunting this growth we have seen over the last 5-7 years.
If the NCAA really decided to investigate I have no doubt the setup and structure of these would dramatically change but I don't really see that happening.
We benefitted from this when Gator Wrestling Club was rolling in our room. Also happens to coincide with our last run of national championships (03-06). You can agree or disagree that the RTC's are making a difference in the landscape of recruiting. You can't argue that the last time we had a strong club presence in our room, our team was winning like Penn State's is now.
What happened to it? Why wasn’t it Cowboy RTC? Talking to some one way up in the AD but not that knowledgeable about wrestling, there is an unbelievable facility trying to be raised, but when I asked about a few hundred k a year now to sponsor an RTC he didn’t really know what I was talking about. Why can’t we be sponsoring wrestlers now? That wouldn’t cost that much.
John was making really good money. He put himself on the 1,000/month budget to not let the money make him soft. He was one motivated wrestler.
That is the key question... I don't know if it is that Smith and Holder feel uneasy about the whole setup or that fully funding an RTC is all part of the money being raised now but I just don't hear much about the RTC.
IMO I would be raising the few million it would take to fund and to some degree endow the RTC in the short term. The facilities can come later and are not as important if we want to keep pace with the rest of the big boys in college wrestling.
Two big differences between Gator Wrestling Club of old and Nittany Lion Wrestling Club of today: (1) the main donor to Gator was not an alumnus or donor to Oklahoma State where as the main donor to NLWC has a building(s) named after him at PSU, (2) while most members of Gator were former OSU wrestlers, Gator sponsored wrestlers training and living in other locations like Iowa City where as NWLC sponsored wrestlers who mostly live and train at PSU.
I don’t believe OSU AD can be involved in fund raising or administrating the RTC. It is a separate non-profit allowed to co-exist with OSU wrestling with some overlap in OSU facilities and coaching staff. Your AD acquaintance may have intentionally been playing dumb or would not have a good reason to know about the RTC.
My impression is that John Smith perhaps at the behest of Holder has worked hard to get former OSU wrestlers sponsorships and support from non-OSU donors such as Titan Mercury.
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That is because the athletic departments nowhere sponsor the RTC. It is a completely separate 501c3. However, if someone in the athletic department had knowledge of wrestling, once the funding for the facility is in place, they could mention during conversations that the RTC benefits the wrestling program greatly.
The old Gator club was very similar to what Titan Mercury does now. Supports the top guys from all over. Helps keep the RTC cost down, actually.
Facilities are secondary. We need a fully funded and well run RTC if we ever want to get back to consistently competing for championships. That needs to be the primary and intial focus of fundraising. Every year we fail to do so puts us further behind the eight ball.
We need someone to cast the vision and sell the need. Get out and start educating and sharing how we are going to set this up, what the need is and how it will benifit or university and its athletes and I'm sure fund raising would ramp up.
I really think we should focus on something better than an RTC. IMO the idea of an elite RTC/MMA training center could be more beneficial. There is more money and more opportunities to create a future with both together. Only so many wrestlers can make a world team there’s almost 50 different fighting leagues out there with a future to be had.
I believe a commitment by Holder and the Athletic department with a big donor involved has to be the first step. Better facilities then has to be first as it will be sponsored by this donor and the University. I do not see any way that a fan based donor program can be successful without the big donor donating first. Hopefully, this is to come in the near future.
I think the idea of an RTC with an MMA team is a potentially great idea.
I can see why John has been reticent to get involved with the rtc’s. Who knows what’s fact and fiction, but the rumors of kids taking less scholarship to have a guaranteed “job” in the rtc, after eligibility is up, feels ripe for the ncaa to eventually bring the hammer down.
I can see why John has been reticent to get involved with the rtc’s. Who knows what’s fact and fiction, but the rumors of kids taking less scholarship to have a guaranteed “job” in the rtc, after eligibility is up, feels ripe for the ncaa to eventually bring the hammer down.
I agree. But we are talking about two different things. The Athletic department needs to concentrate on the facility, and get that built, at the same time John, Derek, and whomever needs to be working on how to get the RTC funded. Part of the problem may be what they feel are a limited # of bigger donors. Forgetting that a bunch of donors giving small regular amounts can be a big help.
I like the MMA idea. IMO we don't leverage our MMA contacts and track record nearly enough. Plenty of guys have long-term MMA aspirations. Pretty sure that includes AJ Ferrari. One key is how to integrate the RTC & MMA facility without losing the nonprofit status. But maybe it's as simple as having adjoining rooms or putting up a curtain.
Yeah I think you could certainly create a structure that would pass scrutiny. You could even ostensibly have a kid in both programs. MMA team pays rent for use of space ... I could honestly see this working. It hurts my heart to think of how good Hendricks could have been with a real team.
I have no idea if he would be up for it and I have no idea how you would make it happen from a rules perspective but it would even be great to find some way to partner with Lovato in OKC. World-class wrestlers and some kind of involvement from Lovato would make a top notch MMA team and be huge for recruiting.
I have no idea if it would be legal though.
