ADVERTISEMENT

Questions for LOTR geeks

Been Jammin

Moderator
Moderator
Jun 27, 2003
62,468
47,591
113
Over the Holiday break, I started rewatching the LOTR movies. (Haven't quite finished yet). A question occurred to me, that is not answered in the movies, but I thought maybe there was an answer in the books (or Tolkein's other writings).

One of the plot points, in the movies, is that the Elves are leaving the world to take ships to an island and will never be able to return. The implication is that the Elves who make this journey, will be close to immortal and live on in some type of utopia. But, if they stay behind, they will lose their chance, and will have to live in the world of men. They will age much more slowly, but will eventually die. There is a lot of discussion about Arwyn debating between going with her people or staying behind due to her love for Aragorn. She is on her way to catch her ship when she decides to turn around and go back. This upsets Elrond, as she has apparently missed her chance to go to the "undying lands". I'm not sure about Elrond, but the suggestion is that he is going to take a later ship, as he is in no rush to make it to a ship, and he makes it clear to Arwyn that she is choosing Aragorn over her love for him (Elrond).

Here are my questions...

1). Why couldn't Arwyn just delay a while and catch a later ship?

2). After she makes her decision, Elrond tells Aragorn that she is dying and her fate is now tied to the fate of the Ring of Power. Does this just apply to her, or does it apply to all Elves who do not go to the Undying Lands? Does it apply to Elrond? Is he just using Arwyn as an example because he knows Aragorn loves her and he is trying to manipulate Aragorn into sitting on the throne of Gondor?

3). Why is there no discussion of Legolas taking a ship (or giving up his chance to take a ship) to the Undying Lands?
 
because it's in the script...come on man. These are actors and just reading their lines....!! It's not real!! Fake story!!
 
I could take a crack at answering these but RedSon or somebody else would be able to explain it far better.

FWIW the books are outstanding reads.
 
I could take a crack at answering these but RedSon or somebody else would be able to explain it far better.

FWIW the books are outstanding reads.

I tried reading them. Too much slow slogging between the interesting parts, IMO.
 
Over the Holiday break, I started rewatching the LOTR movies. (Haven't quite finished yet). A question occurred to me, that is not answered in the movies, but I thought maybe there was an answer in the books (or Tolkein's other writings).

One of the plot points, in the movies, is that the Elves are leaving the world to take ships to an island and will never be able to return. The implication is that the Elves who make this journey, will be close to immortal and live on in some type of utopia. But, if they stay behind, they will lose their chance, and will have to live in the world of men. They will age much more slowly, but will eventually die. There is a lot of discussion about Arwyn debating between going with her people or staying behind due to her love for Aragorn. She is on her way to catch her ship when she decides to turn around and go back. This upsets Elrond, as she has apparently missed her chance to go to the "undying lands". I'm not sure about Elrond, but the suggestion is that he is going to take a later ship, as he is in no rush to make it to a ship, and he makes it clear to Arwyn that she is choosing Aragorn over her love for him (Elrond).

Here are my questions...

1). Why couldn't Arwyn just delay a while and catch a later ship?

2). After she makes her decision, Elrond tells Aragorn that she is dying and her fate is now tied to the fate of the Ring of Power. Does this just apply to her, or does it apply to all Elves who do not go to the Undying Lands? Does it apply to Elrond? Is he just using Arwyn as an example because he knows Aragorn loves her and he is trying to manipulate Aragorn into sitting on the throne of Gondor?

3). Why is there no discussion of Legolas taking a ship (or giving up his chance to take a ship) to the Undying Lands?

Ok, I'm no LOTR geek but I'll take a crack at this.

1) Arwen could have waited to take another ship to the undying lands, but the issue was that if she chose to stay with Aragorn (i.e., give him her light, i.e. choose man over elves, choose a mortal life over an immortal one) then no ship could bring her across the seas. Many elves stayed in Middle Earth into the fourth age (i.e., after the LOTR, after Aragorn is crowned king of the unified Arnor/Gondor realm). This happened over a hundred plus years, but those elves had not chosen man/mortality over their own kind as Arwen had.

2) Her fate was tied to the One Ring because she simply was now committed to staying in Middle Earth, and could not ride a ship to safety in the west. Therefore, barring a victory for Aragorn and the free people, death would have been virtually assured at the hands of Sauron and his allies. The fate of other elves would presumably be the same, unless they had chosen to leave ahead of the doom and destruction that was possibly at hand. I would guess Elrond stayed out of loyalty to his old allies (mankind), and his desire to help defeat Sauron. He eventually does leave for the Undying Lands, along with some other notable passengers that you will read about at the conclusion of the books.

3) Legolas also finds his way to the Undying Lands, but only after the death of Aragorn (after a century+ as king). He built his own ship and as legend states also took a notable passenger along with him. Not sure if it's really stated or not, but his ship might have been the last to sail west. There might have been a few other elves that chose to remain in Middle Earth (not sure?) but the time of man had come, the time of the elves had passed. I think Celeborn (husband of Galadriel), pehaps was the last of the ancient elves that remained in Middle Earth from the first age....Galadriel went back to the Undying Lands first, but he stayed....not sure if Tolkien ever stated how long he remained, but he was there well beyond the end of the LOTR books. Cirdan as well, he may have stayed along while. Ok, I'm starting to sound a bit like a geek.
 
Ok, I'm no LOTR geek but I'll take a crack at this.

1) Arwen could have waited to take another ship to the undying lands, but the issue was that if she chose to stay with Aragorn (i.e., give him her light, i.e. choose man over elves, choose a mortal life over an immortal one) then no ship could bring her across the seas. Many elves stayed in Middle Earth into the fourth age (i.e., after the LOTR, after Aragorn is crowned king of the unified Arnor/Gondor realm). This happened over a hundred plus years, but those elves had not chosen man/mortality over their own kind as Arwen had.

2) Her fate was tied to the One Ring because she simply was now committed to staying in Middle Earth, and could not ride a ship to safety in the west. Therefore, barring a victory for Aragorn and the free people, death would have been virtually assured at the hands of Sauron and his allies. The fate of other elves would presumably be the same, unless they had chosen to leave ahead of the doom and destruction that was possibly at hand. I would guess Elrond stayed out of loyalty to his old allies (mankind), and his desire to help defeat Sauron. He eventually does leave for the Undying Lands, along with some other notable passengers that you will read about at the conclusion of the books.

3) Legolas also finds his way to the Undying Lands, but only after the death of Aragorn (after a century+ as king). He built his own ship and as legend states also took a notable passenger along with him. Not sure if it's really stated or not, but his ship might have been the last to sail west. There might have been a few other elves that chose to remain in Middle Earth (not sure?) but the time of man had come, the time of the elves had passed. I think Celeborn (husband of Galadriel), pehaps was the last of the ancient elves that remained in Middle Earth from the first age....Galadriel went back to the Undying Lands first, but he stayed....not sure if Tolkien ever stated how long he remained, but he was there well beyond the end of the LOTR books. Cirdan as well, he may have stayed along while. Ok, I'm starting to sound a bit like a geek.

Thanks, Duke. That, actually, answers all of my questions.

And, you are clearly a LOTR nerd.
 
These are good questions BTW.

Duke has obviously spent more time reading the appendecies of ROTK than I have.

Some of these answers, or aspects of them, can be found in the Silmarillion as well.

1) There is also the more immediate concern with waiting for a later ship... Sauron could win. He could capture her. The result of that would not be pretty. He would very much enjoy a chance to make a trophy of the daughter of Elrond and granddaughter of Galadriel.

The long term concern would be whether Cirdan or any other elf capable would remain to build a ship to take her to Valinor if she waited too long. Aragorn has Numenorean blood. He could live a very long time, as could his and Arwyn’s children. He was already 90 during the War of the Ring.

2) One further possible interpretation of her fate being tied to the Ring. Obviously, if Sauron wins her fate is almost certainly terrible. Even if the Ring is destroyed though... everything she knows is still destroyed with it. Her people would be gone. The power of the Elves rings would break with the One Ring, ruining the beauty of both Rivendell and Lorien, so her home would also be gone. Win or lose she loses everything except what time remains to Aragorn.

As to other Elves... I do not know. Probably not. They may choose to stay in Middle-Earth longer, but they are not tying themselves to mortals in the process. There are very strict rules in place about the mingling of elf and human blood. Elrond and his twin Elros were supposed to be the last halfbreeds allowed (they probably weren’t).

I do think some of this is selfishness on the part of Elrond as well. His parents are lost to him, his brother chose a mortal life and now his daughter too? Why doesn’t anyone want to be an elf in this family?!?

As to Elrond himself... I suspect it does apply to him, but differently. He would stay indefinitely had the Ring not been found I think. His power will not survive it’s return though. Either it is destroyed, and with it his own ring of power, or Sauron claims it and he has to hide his ring or become Sauron’s slave as surly as the Nazgul.

He is trying to make Aragorn except his inheritance because she made her choice. Prior to her choice he was happy to support Aargorn’s decision not to claim the thrown. Once she does though... He does everything in his power, short of of sending other Elves to die, to make Aaragorn capable of victory. He has reforged Narsil even.

3) Legolas’ father Thranduil, who does not possess a ring of power, is in no hurry to leave ME for whatever reason. In the books Legolas does discuss leaving to the West. He chooses to wait to do so later. I believe part of his reason for staying is to enjoy his friends Gimli and Aragorn as long as he can.

I believe there is a difference in the urgency to reach Valinor among different groups of Elves. The Eldar and Avari have different connections to the Undying Lands. The Avari refused to go originally (and play no prominent role in this story). The Eldar (Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri) chose to go. The Sindar and Nandor changed their minds during the journey (the Sindar because their king was lost and the Nandor because they got tired I guess). These two groups account for nearly all of the Elves in the Hobbit and LOtR. Celeborn and Thranduil, Haldir, Legolas, Cirdan... Elrond and Arwyn have Noldor blood as well I think (Arwyn for sure, from her mother if not both). The Noldor made it to Valinor, but chased Morgoth back to ME after he slew their patriarch and stole the Silmarils. For Galadriel going into the West is returning to the land of her birth.
 
These are good questions BTW.

Duke has obviously spent more time reading the appendecies of ROTK than I have.

Some of these answers, or aspects of them, can be found in the Silmarillion as well.

1) There is also the more immediate concern with waiting for a later ship... Sauron could win. He could capture her. The result of that would not be pretty. He would very much enjoy a chance to make a trophy of the daughter of Elrond and granddaughter of Galadriel.

The long term concern would be whether Cirdan or any other elf capable would remain to build a ship to take her to Valinor if she waited too long. Aragorn has Numenorean blood. He could live a very long time, as could his and Arwyn’s children. He was already 90 during the War of the Ring.

2) One further possible interpretation of her fate being tied to the Ring. Obviously, if Sauron wins her fate is almost certainly terrible. Even if the Ring is destroyed though... everything she knows is still destroyed with it. Her people would be gone. The power of the Elves rings would break with the One Ring, ruining the beauty of both Rivendell and Lorien, so her home would also be gone. Win or lose she loses everything except what time remains to Aragorn.

As to other Elves... I do not know. Probably not. They may choose to stay in Middle-Earth longer, but they are not tying themselves to mortals in the process. There are very strict rules in place about the mingling of elf and human blood. Elrond and his twin Elros were supposed to be the last halfbreeds allowed (they probably weren’t).

I do think some of this is selfishness on the part of Elrond as well. His parents are lost to him, his brother chose a mortal life and now his daughter too? Why doesn’t anyone want to be an elf in this family?!?

As to Elrond himself... I suspect it does apply to him, but differently. He would stay indefinitely had the Ring not been found I think. His power will not survive it’s return though. Either it is destroyed, and with it his own ring of power, or Sauron claims it and he has to hide his ring or become Sauron’s slave as surly as the Nazgul.

He is trying to make Aragorn except his inheritance because she made her choice. Prior to her choice he was happy to support Aargorn’s decision not to claim the thrown. Once she does though... He does everything in his power, short of of sending other Elves to die, to make Aaragorn capable of victory. He has reforged Narsil even.

3) Legolas’ father Thranduil, who does not possess a ring of power, is in no hurry to leave ME for whatever reason. In the books Legolas does discuss leaving to the West. He chooses to wait to do so later. I believe part of his reason for staying is to enjoy his friends Gimli and Aragorn as long as he can.

I believe there is a difference in the urgency to reach Valinor among different groups of Elves. The Eldar and Avari have different connections to the Undying Lands. The Avari refused to go originally (and play no prominent role in this story). The Eldar (Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri) chose to go. The Sindar and Nandor changed their minds during the journey (the Sindar because their king was lost and the Nandor because they got tired I guess). These two groups account for nearly all of the Elves in the Hobbit and LOtR. Celeborn and Thranduil, Haldir, Legolas, Cirdan... Elrond and Arwyn have Noldor blood as well I think (Arwyn for sure, from her mother if not both). The Noldor made it to Valinor, but chased Morgoth back to ME after he slew their patriarch and stole the Silmarils. For Galadriel going into the West is returning to the land of her birth.

Nerd.
 
On further thought... the Avari, a large portion of them at least, do figure into this story quite a bit. Many of the Avari were enslaved by Morgoth. They were kept in dungeons, tortured and corrupted. The Orcs are their descendants.

I don’t think Tolkien ever allowed for any redemption in their story.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Been Jammin
ADVERTISEMENT

Latest posts

ADVERTISEMENT