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Question For My Friends That Are FerventTrump Supporters

Ponca Dan

MegaPoke is insane
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Dec 7, 2003
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One of DJT’s most vocal campaign promises was to build a wall between the US and Mexico, and he would make Mexico pay for it. Today he insisted that he would take full responsibility for shutting down the government if the Democrats don’t agree to fund the building of the wall. Mexico paying for the wall seems to have been dropped from the conversation.

Let’s suppose Trump wins this battle, gets the Democrats to relent and fund the wall. This leads me to a question. Well, two questions.

First, do you regard it as a broken promise if Trump does not find a way to make Mexico pony up to fund the wall?

Second, some people, myself included, have been opposed to the wall from the beginning, and have been especially opposed to it if US taxpayers are forced to pay for it. For those of you that support building the wall even if US taxpayers have to pay for it, in spite of it being a broken campaign promise, will any of you be willing to assume responsibility to pay for my portion of the bill?
 
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One of DJT’s most vocal campaign promises was to build a wall between the US and Mexico, and he would make Mexico pay for it. Today he insisted that he would take full responsibility for shutting down the government if the Democrats don’t agree to fund the building of the wall. Mexico paying for the wall seems to have been dropped from the conversation.

Let’s suppose Trump wins this battle, gets the Democrats to relent and fund the wall. This leads me to a question. Well, two questions.

First, do you regard it as a broken promise if Trump does not find a way to make Mexico pony up to fund the wall?

Second, some people, myself included, have been opposed to the wall from the beginning, and have been especially opposed to it if US taxpayers are forced to pay for it. For those of you that support building the wall even if US taxpayers have to pay for it, in spite of it being a broken campaign promise, will any of you be willing to assume responsibility to pay for my portion of the bill?

1. don’t care
2. don’t care

the wall keeps cnn in business
they should pay for it
 
For those of you that support building the wall even if US taxpayers have to pay for it, in spite of it being a broken campaign promise, will any of you be willing to assume responsibility to pay for my portion of the bill?
Will you assume my portion of the bill, to also include my children's portions, to pay for illegals already in this country and all of them that may arrive in the future?
 
Trump has the Mexico pay for it part figured out. It's getting the construction funded he needs first.

A tax on all rimitinces to Mexico would easily raise the money. But it can also be done by tariffs. You people don't know who you're dealing with.


Forgive me for my skepticism. If I understand you correctly you are saying let’s have the government force American taxpayers pay to build the wall and figure out how to get Mexico to pay for it once the wall is built. Is that what you mean?

I understand you are under the impression DJT has the intelligence and capability to pull off such a feat. I have my doubts. DJT is a politician making a promise. The history of politicians honoring their promises does not provide me with much confidence in this case. DJT’s history of honoring promises in his private business life gives me pause that he can/will do so this time.

I do not understand what you mean by a tax on all remittances to Mexico. A remittance is a payment. Are you talking about payments the US government makes to the Mexican government? What payments? Or are you talking about a payment a US citizen makes to a Mexican citizen? Can you explain?

As for your belief that tariffs would raise the money, we have gone over this before: a tariff is a tax on the consumer in the country imposing it. In other words US citizens foot the bill on tariffs imposed on goods brought into the US for sale. Mexico would not pay for the wall via tariffs, Americans would. You are mistaken in thinking tariffs would make Mexico pay.
 
Trump has the Mexico pay for it part figured out. It's getting the construction funded he needs first.

A tax on all rimitinces to Mexico would easily raise the money. But it can also be done by tariffs. You people don't know who you're dealing with.

your spell checker broke on rimitinces
 
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Will you assume my portion of the bill, to also include my children's portions, to pay for illegals already in this country and all of them that may arrive in the future?
Ah, a whole new topic, and probably one in which you and I are in complete agreement. One of the primary arguments against the tsunami of immigrants pouring into our country is the burden they place on the welfare industry. I totally respect that argument and totally agree with it.

The way I see it the solution to that argument would come in welfare reform that makes welfare payments available to American citizens only. If it is true that immigrants are coming here to avail themselves of the high life provided by welfare, doesn’t it make sense that they would quit coming if the welfare spigot was turned off?

Wouldn’t it be more prudent to have that debate? American taxpayers would be relieved of the burden of paying for a wall, and further relieved of the increasing burden on our welfare industry. It would be a twofer!
 
Ah, a whole new topic, and probably one in which you and I are in complete agreement. One of the primary arguments against the tsunami of immigrants pouring into our country is the burden they place on the welfare industry. I totally respect that argument and totally agree with it.

The way I see it the solution to that argument would come in welfare reform that makes welfare payments available to American citizens only. If it is true that immigrants are coming here to avail themselves of the high life provided by welfare, doesn’t it make sense that they would quit coming if the welfare spigot was turned off?

Wouldn’t it be more prudent to have that debate? American taxpayers would be relieved of the burden of paying for a wall, and further relieved of the increasing burden on our welfare industry. It would be a twofer!
Should we deny illegal immigrants healthcare? What would I do with the carload of 4 illegals who get into a serious car accident that require emergency services, surgical intervention, lengthy ICU stays, and physical rehabilitation? Do we stop providing education to them? How about school lunches? Should we require citizenship verification before operating a motor vehicle? How about collecting taxes on money they earn under the table? There are so many costs not related to "welfare payments" to consider.

It seems like it would be a lot easier to do more work on the front end to prevent their illegal entry. That might take care of some of the drugs that come across the border as well.
 
Will you assume my portion of the bill, to also include my children's portions, to pay for illegals already in this country and all of them that may arrive in the future?
Yesterday it was said each illegal immigrant costs US taxpayers $70,000/yr. Imagine the costs if millions more decide the US is a paper tiger on border security and come unrestrained across our borders. Sending 350,000 home would pay for the wall. Where the wall is already built it's said it has reduced illegal crossings by 90% in those areas.
 
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I am all for legal immigration. I'm totally against illegal immigration.
I've thoughts on how to solve both. But they don't ask me. So if a wall is one aspect of a solution; then, build that wall or other security method.

However I've said for a long time the solution to fix illegal immigration is to fix our legal immigration process. Ramp up the staffing that would reduce immigration requests to just a few days/hours. People wouldn't feel the need to sneak over if they could do it legally. Give them a visitor work permit and a tax ID and let them come on in to work. Then check in periodically to make sure they are still working and not getting into legal trouble.

That doesn't have to be a path to citizenship.

This seems like a much better answer and it amazes me that neither party discusses this as a solution. But until then, at the very least prevent illegal immigration - wall or otherwise.
 
Should we deny illegal immigrants healthcare? What would I do with the carload of 4 illegals who get into a serious car accident that require emergency services, surgical intervention, lengthy ICU stays, and physical rehabilitation? Do we stop providing education to them? How about school lunches? Should we require citizenship verification before operating a motor vehicle? How about collecting taxes on money they earn under the table? There are so many costs not related to "welfare payments" to consider.

It seems like it would be a lot easier to do more work on the front end to prevent their illegal entry. That might take care of some of the drugs that come across the border as well.
No, we should not deny healthcare to illegal immigrants. We should deny FREE healthcare to them. American citizens have to pay for their healthcare (most of us anyway). So should they.

The car load of illegal immigrants should be patched up and extradited back to where they came from. Payment should be made by charitable organizations established for just such purposes. Those charitable organizations should be funded by donations from people and companies that recognize a Christian duty to help. It would provide the liberal/Left half of the electorate with the greatest signal virtue of all,

Stop providing education to illegal immigrants? If we know they are here illegally we send them back. Citizen verification in order to obtain a driver’s license? Yes!

Collect taxes on money earned under the table? How would we know about money earned under the table?

My point is this: the concern is they are coming for all the freebies. Stop the freebies and they’ll stop coming. That, to me, makes much more logical sense than building a wall. A wall might slow the pipeline for awhile. But people are incredibly inventive, even poor, disease ridden criminals from shithole countries. If they want in here badly enough they’ll eventually find a way. A wall is a feel-good temporary fix.
 
I am all for legal immigration. I'm totally against illegal immigration.
I've thoughts on how to solve both. But they don't ask me. So if a wall is one aspect of a solution; then, build that wall or other security method.

However I've said for a long time the solution to fix illegal immigration is to fix our legal immigration process. Ramp up the staffing that would reduce immigration requests to just a few days/hours. People wouldn't feel the need to sneak over if they could do it legally. Give them a visitor work permit and a tax ID and let them come on in to work. Then check in periodically to make sure they are still working and not getting into legal trouble.

That doesn't have to be a path to citizenship.

This seems like a much better answer and it amazes me that neither party discusses this as a solution. But until then, at the very least prevent illegal immigration - wall or otherwise.
Very sensible!
 
I am all for legal immigration. I'm totally against illegal immigration.
I've thoughts on how to solve both. But they don't ask me. So if a wall is one aspect of a solution; then, build that wall or other security method.

However I've said for a long time the solution to fix illegal immigration is to fix our legal immigration process. Ramp up the staffing that would reduce immigration requests to just a few days/hours. People wouldn't feel the need to sneak over if they could do it legally. Give them a visitor work permit and a tax ID and let them come on in to work. Then check in periodically to make sure they are still working and not getting into legal trouble.

That doesn't have to be a path to citizenship.

This seems like a much better answer and it amazes me that neither party discusses this as a solution. But until then, at the very least prevent illegal immigration - wall or otherwise.

Nice.

Is it true that neither side is attempting to address a solution pragmatically? Real question.
 
No, we should not deny healthcare to illegal immigrants. We should deny FREE healthcare to them. American citizens have to pay for their healthcare (most of us anyway). So should they.
How are hospitals supposed to collect money from illegal immigrants that have no insurance, no SSN, no ID, no known assets, no bank accounts, and often use aliases? Collect the $350,000 before they are discharged? Indentured service?

The car load of illegal immigrants should be patched up and extradited back to where they came from. Payment should be made by charitable organizations established for just such purposes. Those charitable organizations should be funded by donations from people and companies that recognize a Christian duty to help. It would provide the liberal/Left half of the electorate with the greatest signal virtue of all,
Where are these charitable organizations that can afford $350,000 hospital stays for illegals? "Patching up" can be very expensive. If a charitable organization has that kind of money, wouldn't that be better spent on our own needy citizens?

Stop providing education to illegal immigrants? If we know they are here illegally we send them back. Citizen verification in order to obtain a driver’s license? Yes!
Do school systems determine legal status? Last time I checked you only have to provide proof you live in the school district. What about a children born to illegals in the US? Deport the parents and do what with the US citizen children? And you don't have to actually have a license to drive a car.

Collect taxes on money earned under the table? How would we know about money earned under the table?
Good point. I pay taxes on the money I make because it's reported to the IRS. The illegals that get paid in cash and the employers that pay them might not be reporting their incomes.

My point is this: the concern is they are coming for all the freebies. Stop the freebies and they’ll stop coming. That, to me, makes much more logical sense than building a wall. A wall might slow the pipeline for awhile. But people are incredibly inventive, even poor, disease ridden criminals from shithole countries. If they want in here badly enough they’ll eventually find a way. A wall is a feel-good temporary fix.
Walls seem to work in other countries and even seem to work in areas of our southern border. See all the above regarding freebies.
 
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I am all for legal immigration. I'm totally against illegal immigration.
I've thoughts on how to solve both. But they don't ask me. So if a wall is one aspect of a solution; then, build that wall or other security method.

However I've said for a long time the solution to fix illegal immigration is to fix our legal immigration process. Ramp up the staffing that would reduce immigration requests to just a few days/hours. People wouldn't feel the need to sneak over if they could do it legally. Give them a visitor work permit and a tax ID and let them come on in to work. Then check in periodically to make sure they are still working and not getting into legal trouble.

That doesn't have to be a path to citizenship.

This seems like a much better answer and it amazes me that neither party discusses this as a solution. But until then, at the very least prevent illegal immigration - wall or otherwise.

Tie all funds spent on illegals, in the US, to the handouts we give the home country on the other end. Say the US spends $2 Billion on illegal criminals, illegals medical care and illegals being educated from Mexico then guess what they lose that money. Do some simple math (no common core crap) and deduct that amount from what they are supposed to get.

Tax remittances and verify the person sending is a legal resident alien or US citizen or a citizen here that is not breaking our laws.

If the wall works for the Israeli's, that's good enough for me. Build the dam thing. Heard yesterday the funding for the wall is 1/10 of 1% of the overall budget. In the grand scheme of things, that is a rounding error.

Mexico aides and abets these soon to be criminals by looking the other way while they cross their borders, allowing citizens to provide material support to the illegals and continuing to be corrupt to the core. The new president is going to make it worse as well. Won't be surprised if someone doesn't walk up to him someday and put a round between the running lights.

I wholeheartedly agree that the immigration system needs to be dragged into the 21st century.

It is a unfulfilled promise currently but on the flip side he has appointed 2 SCOTUS members and that Trumps about everything else that he hasn't done.
 
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Forgive me for my skepticism. If I understand you correctly you are saying let’s have the government force American taxpayers pay to build the wall and figure out how to get Mexico to pay for it once the wall is built. Is that what you mean?

American taxpayers are forced constantly to fund an endless list of wasteful pointless things that don’t increase border security.

Full disclosure, are you not an open borders guy? If so, would you not oppose the wall regardless of funding source?

What is your point exactly?
 
This wall shit is a distraction from having to have real dialogue on immigration reform.

Also, why is it so hard for people to understand that the right is for immigration, but against illegal immigration? I suspect it’s because the narrative pushed by the left and the media is that not wanting illegal immigration means you’re racist.
 
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This wall shit is a distraction from having to have real dialogue on immigration reform.

Also, why is it so hard for people to understand that the right is for immigration, but against illegal immigration? I suspect it’s because the narrative pushed by the left and the media is that not wanting illegal immigration means you’re racist.

I don’t believe the entirety of the right is “for immigration”.

There is a substantial element within the right that is anti-immigration....immigrants stealing our jobs and whatnot.
 
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How are hospitals supposed to collect money from illegal immigrants that have no insurance, no SSN, no ID, no known assets, no bank accounts, and often use aliases? Collect the $350,000 before they are discharged? Indentured service?


Where are these charitable organizations that can afford $350,000 hospital stays for illegals? "Patching up" can be very expensive. If a charitable organization has that kind of money, wouldn't that be better spent on our own needy citizens?


Do school systems determine legal status? Last time I checked you only have to provide proof you live in the school district. What about a children born to illegals in the US? Deport the parents and do what with the US citizen children? And you don't have to actually have a license to drive a car.


Good point. I pay taxes on the money I make because it's reported to the IRS. The illegals that get paid in cash and the employers that pay them might not be reporting their incomes.


Walls seem to work in other countries and even seem to work in areas of our southern border. See all the above regarding freebies.
I'm at work, and that takes precedence over the pleasure of a civil political discussion. You have packed a lot into your remarks, and they deserve more than a quick off the cuff rebuttal. Give me some time to ruminate on this and I'll try to get back with you later today. For the record I love having conversations like this!
 
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I don’t believe the entirety of the right is “for immigration”.

There is a substantial element within the right that is anti-immigration....immigrants stealing our jobs and whatnot.
Agree, but I don’t think it’s that substantial. What percentage I have no idea.
 
I don’t believe the entirety of the right is “for immigration”.

There is a substantial element within the right that is anti-immigration....immigrants stealing our jobs and whatnot.

The entirety of anything is never a true measure. I know nobody who is against legal immigration, even though we’ve had periods of restricted immigration before. I’ve never heard the stealing our jobs complaint applied to legal citizens. Not saying it hasn’t but I doubt that’s a representative sample of the right or any other vaguely defined group.
 
Agree, but I don’t think it’s that substantial. What percentage I have no idea.

IMO, when you consider

-no legal immigration folks,
-the no legal immigration from “shithole” countries folks, and
-not for making it any easier to legally immigrate here folks....

It can’t be accurately asserted that the right is all for legal immigration.
 
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The entirety of anything is never a true measure. I know nobody who is against legal immigration, even though we’ve had periods of restricted immigration before. I’ve never heard the stealing our jobs complaint applied to legal citizens. Not saying it hasn’t but I doubt that’s a representative sample of the right or any other vaguely defined group.

Weird, I’ve heard it plenty applied to immigrants here or seeking to enter legally plenty.

We had a study posted here from the Center for Immigration Studies which is organization and think tank "that favors far lower immigration numbers and produces research to further those views." Which was supported and defended.

Just this week.

I think it is a larger representative sample than you do.

Also, it was Imprimis that made the assertion as to the entirety of the right being in favor of legal immigration.
 
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American taxpayers are forced constantly to fund an endless list of wasteful pointless things that don’t increase border security.

Full disclosure, are you not an open borders guy? If so, would you not oppose the wall regardless of funding source?

What is your point exactly?

Let me try to respond to you and to Brad's "purity" comment in one sitting. I was raised and have tried to live my life under the concept of what a "pure" life would be and, knowing achievement of same is impossible, still aim for that purity as best I can. I advocate the same for society at large. Have a vision of what utopia would look like and do our best to go in that direction. I know that some on this board regard that as kooky as hell. That's OK, we all have to live our lives as our free will dictates. That's how I choose to behave.

Yes, I oppose the building of the wall regardless of where the funding is obtained. Making me pay for it is like pulling out my fingernails instead of simply trimming them back. Insult to injury.

I recognize that we live in a country, that a country by necessity has borders and laws to protect those borders regardless of whether there is an invasion by an opposing army or an invasion by "illegals."
That's the reality in which we live, not utopia.

So the question becomes what is the correct way to protect the border from an invasion. DJT has proposed a wall. His proposal has proven to be wildly popular by a section of the populace, probably about half of us, wouldn't you agree? The other half of the population opposes such construction.

One of the primary arguments on behalf of building a wall is to keep out illegals who muck up all the social services that have been designed to aid those American citizens that are in need. The assumption is the illegals are coming here for all the free stuff. I think there is merit to that assumption. It makes no sense to me to continue with the carrot, the inducement for them to come, but put up a wall to keep them out. Why not just eliminate the inducement? If it is true that is why they are coming then there would be no more incentive on their part. It seems nonsensical to me that we would continue to conduct the social service programs in the same manner as now, allow illegals to participate in them if they get here, but then throw up roadblocks in their path. They'll still come, hoping they can circumvent the roadblocks, knowing once they get here we'll throw up our hands in despair and say "oh, well, now that you're here here's some free stuff."

And then there's the tin foil hat kooky libertarian anarchist side of me that sees a potential that in the future the wall will be used to keep us in rather than keep them out.
 
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IMO, when you consider

-no legal immigration folks,
-the no legal immigration from “shithole” countries folks, and
-not for making it any easier to legally immigrate here folks....

It can’t be accurately asserted that the right is all for legal immigration.
Next time I will qualify it so you don’t have to get all lawyery. Obviously not 100% of the right or left or middle are for legal immigration.
 
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Next time I will qualify it so you don’t have to get all lawyery. Obviously not 100% of the right or left or middle are for legal immigration.

And to clarify further, it is likely that I think the percentage of the right not “for legal immigration” is higher than what it appears to me that you think it is.

Also...words matter. Taking your words at their face value isn’t getting lawyery. It’s just proceeding as if you meant what you said and said what you meant.
 
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hollisticly viewed

the right “not for legal immigration” crowd would prolly subside if otard hadn’t changed the landscapes of minneapolis and detroit

there weren’t sanctuary cities winking at the law

and bob barry jr was still bringing us the sports at 5
 
Trump has the Mexico pay for it part figured out. It's getting the construction funded he needs first.

A tax on all rimitinces to Mexico would easily raise the money. But it can also be done by tariffs. You people don't know who you're dealing with.

your spell checker broke on rimitinces
Yes it did. I'll force myself to continue on in life knowing I misspelled a word.
 
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I think the answer to illegal immigration has to include a coordinated state and federal plan. Federal has to do as @Ostatedchi recommends and improve the legal immigration process. Also they need to actually secure the borders. If a wall is the form of security, build it. The Coast Guard has to also be utilized in security of the boarder and they need their budgets increased to stop illegal immigration and drug trafficking on our coastal borders. The Fed also has some capabilities to change banking laws and requirements for FDIC insured banks that can not allow undocumented people to establish loans and mortgages. They can also make stiffer penalties that for companies that hire undocumented workers. The risk/reward for hiring migrant farm workers and manual laborers are well worth the risk for most companies that need low cost manual labor. Every state also has be willing to do some very difficult things also. States are the ones that actually administrate the welfare systems. States need to implement requirements for either citizenship or work visas to qualify for social assistance programs. States must stop issuing DL's, state ID cards, and vehicle registrations, for undocumented people. States must also pass laws that require state and county police forces to turn over to ICE all people that are undocumented. States must also pass laws imposing penalties on companies that hire undocumented workers.
 
I think the answer to illegal immigration has to include a coordinated state and federal plan. Federal has to do as @Ostatedchi recommends and improve the legal immigration process. Also they need to actually secure the borders. If a wall is the form of security, build it. The Coast Guard has to also be utilized in security of the boarder and they need their budgets increased to stop illegal immigration and drug trafficking on our coastal borders. The Fed also has some capabilities to change banking laws and requirements for FDIC insured banks that can not allow undocumented people to establish loans and mortgages. They can also make stiffer penalties that for companies that hire undocumented workers. The risk/reward for hiring migrant farm workers and manual laborers are well worth the risk for most companies that need low cost manual labor. Every state also has be willing to do some very difficult things also. States are the ones that actually administrate the welfare systems. States need to implement requirements for either citizenship or work visas to qualify for social assistance programs. States must stop issuing DL's, state ID cards, and vehicle registrations, for undocumented people. States must also pass laws that require state and county police forces to turn over to ICE all people that are undocumented. States must also pass laws imposing penalties on companies that hire undocumented workers.
See, us folks in Bartlesville just solved the immigration issue.
 
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