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osu2082 said:
The downturn in Big 12 wrestling also played a role in our drop from the top and will continue to hamper our recruiting efforts if it doesn’t get better.

The top guys want to wrestle in the best conference, the best duals and in front of big crowds. We need ISU and OU to become top 15-20 type programs. We need NIU, Wyoming, etc to continue to strengthen.
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That's a different topic. We were talking about OU being good, not about the conference being good.

Yes, a strong Big12 would help us. But those other teams are not a risk to grab our local talent. In fact, the best case scenario might be for us to be #1 in the country, the rest of the Big12 to be top 15, and then OU to be #40.

Maybe it's because people are nostalgic for the competitive Bedlam days? I have not followed the team as long as many on here, so I don't have a connection to those duals. To me OU is just a distraction, something in the way of us toppling PSU.
 
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Air_Thurman said:
They wanted Picklo. They want Mastro and Voinovich more.
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Pretty definitive statement.

I'm not lamenting losing out on Picklo. I would have liked to get him, but Harley was right when he said tough decisions lie ahead. And it's certainly possible that the coaches have prioritized Mastro & Voinovich higher.

I'm just not a fan of saying a kid wouldn't make the lineup or he wasn't plan A, right after he verbals somewhere else. It makes no sense - Picklo is ranked higher than Surber. Plus Manville was here this weekend? He just wrestled 182 at Super32. That would put him and Plott both at 184. Didn't stop the coaches from having him in for a recruiting visit.
 
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Wrassler17 said:
Pretty definitive statement.

I'm not lamenting losing out on Picklo. I would have liked to get him, but Harley was right when he said tough decisions lie ahead. And it's certainly possible that the coaches have prioritized Mastro & Voinovich higher.

I'm just not a fan of saying a kid wouldn't make the lineup or he wasn't plan A, right after he verbals somewhere else. It makes no sense - Picklo is ranked higher than Surber. Plus Manville was here this weekend? He just wrestled 182 at Super32. That would put him and Plott both at 184. Didn't stop the coaches from having him in for a recruiting visit.
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Someone who usually knows told me that Mastro and Voinovich are the absolute priorities for this class. Doesn’t mean it’s true but it makes sense.

I also never said we didn’t want the kid. We did. Bringing up the weights was to illustrate we have limited money and it would be harder from him to break into our lineup. Neither is an issue at OU.

I’ve definitely seen Surber ranked ahead of Picklo in some places. I have no idea if that is a consensus.

I absolutely agree with all your thoughts on this overall and Picklo is my favorite recruit. He is from my hometown and I’ve followed his recruitment closely. I bummed he didn’t end up here. I just think this is an isolated case and it’s not something to worry about. I’m even less concerned about OU. They’ve need a lot more than this. There program is in pretty bad shape.
 
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Air_Thurman said:
I've definitely seen Surber ranked ahead of Picklo in some places. I have no idea if that is a consensus.
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I follow your points.

To clarify this, I'm referring to the Big Board rankings. Picklo is #14 overall in the class of 2021 and Surber is #28 overall in the class of 2020. Also, Picklo beat Surber H2H twice this summer. And Picklo took 3rd @ Fargo while Surber took 7th.

The bottom line is I disagree with those that said Picklo would not crack the lineup for years. And this is not a knock on Surber, who I think will be a star himself.

FYI, Surber is ranked above Manville on the prospect rankings.
 
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Wrassler17 said:
I follow your points.

To clarify this, I'm referring to the Big Board rankings. Picklo is #14 overall in the class of 2021 and Surber is #28 overall in the class of 2020. Also, Picklo beat Surber H2H twice this summer. And Picklo took 3rd @ Fargo while Surber took 7th.

The bottom line is I disagree with those that said Picklo would not crack the lineup for years. And this is not a knock on Surber, who I think will be a star himself.

FYI, Surber is ranked above Manville on the prospect rankings.
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Oh I definitely think he could crack the lineup. Probably shouldn't have worded it so strongly. My only point was it is would be a lot, lot harder here than at OU. But I agree if he is a 174 he would have a better shot.

When you throw in ease of making the lineup, scholarship money and the fact his brother has a shot to make the lineup there (and he really wouldn't here) I see why he made the choice he did. We will be more than okay though and I hope it works out well for him. I will be rooting for him. I just think the you can count the guys on one hand (maybe one finger) who have improved a lot under Rosseli at OU.
 
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Air_Thurman said:
Oh I definitely think he could crack the lineup. Probably shouldn't have worded it so strongly. My only point was it is would be a lot, lot harder here than at OU. But I agree if he is a 174 he would have a better shot.

When you throw in ease of making the lineup, scholarship money and the fact his brother has a shot to make the lineup there (and he really wouldn't here) I see why he made the choice he did. We will be more than okay though and I hope it works out well for him. I will be rooting for him. I just think the you can count the guys on one hand (maybe one finger) who have improved a lot under Rosseli at OU.
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Yeah Demas and you could prolly make a case for Justin Thomas have really been the only ones to do anything under him.
 
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For the hell of it, I ran the dual comparison in Wrestlestat. It has the bouts split 5-5 and us winning 18-17. :eek:
 
I would think that on wrestle stat OU would be favored at 33, 41, 57, 97 and HWT and so the duals could be close this year. 2021 recruiting class is very important and we likely have limited funds. The addition of Picklo, who is a standout in the 2021 class would have been outstanding but we need a 57 for the future and so Travis Mastro Giovanni is more important and his brother is with us which makes a better chance for us to get him. Haas would be my second choice, to wrestle 97 or Hwt depending where Ferrari wrestles. This would leave Doucette out of the lineup. If we get those 2 potential standouts I would be happy. We could use a 49 for the future which would be Voinovich but we may find that Balmeceda is a high quality 49 for us. Coach Smith will likely be able to see how good Balmeceda is going to be working with him as a redshirt this year. We thought Balmeceda would take over 57 but apparently he was wrestling way up in weight( I thought he was a good 57 prospect but not a great one) maybe at 49 he could be a great prospect. I agree with Wrastler that Picklo probably would have found a place in our lineup after a redshirt at 65 or 74 beating 1 of our starters there either Surber or Wittlake( close match though). The future does look good if we continue with this momentum with the 2020 recruiting class.
 
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OU under Rossellini has been a pretty big disappointment thus far. That is in terms of development and overall team performance. I’m not real worried about them moving forward and actually think at some point we could see another coaching change.

Below is the team finishes for OU under Rosselli and the previous staff.

Under Rosselli
2019 - 25
2018 - 58
2017 - 32

Under the previous staff who was fired.
2016 - 13
2015 - 18
2014 - 10
 
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I still think we will smash them in the duals and blow them away at Big 12s/NCAAs. That being said, this year will be their best shot at a dual in a while and for the foreseeable futures.
 
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TheJimReaper said:
TBF though, Wrestlestat’s dual comparisons kinda suck sometimes.
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Here's what it gave after a couple of lineup switches. Fairly reasonable, although you figure Boo & Joe get bonus.

Based on John's comments, the plan was Kaid @ 133, Marsden @ 197, and the Purdue heavy at 285. That would have been a blowout.

Picc md Moody 13-3
Madrigal md Witcraft 11-0
Demas dec G 8-4
Boo dec Zeamer 10-5
Justin Thomas dec Wyatt 6-5
Wittlake dec Jeremy Thomas 8-4
Joe dec Mantanona 11-6
Dakota tech Roberts 18-0
Woodley md Montalvo 13-3
Boyd dec Putnam 9-2
 
Wrassler17 said:
Here's what it gave after a couple of lineup switches. Fairly reasonable, although you figure Boo & Joe get bonus.

Based on John's comments, the plan was Kaid @ 133, Marsden @ 197, and the Purdue heavy at 285. That would have been a blowout.

Picc md Moody 13-3
Madrigal md Witcraft 11-0
Demas dec G 8-4
Boo dec Zeamer 10-5
Justin Thomas dec Wyatt 6-5
Wittlake dec Jeremy Thomas 8-4
Joe dec Mantanona 11-6
Dakota tech Roberts 18-0
Woodley md Montalvo 13-3
Boyd dec Putnam 9-2
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So what happened to Marsden? Did he leave the team?
 
From Carson Manville's visit this weekend. He was ranked #12 on the 2021 Flo Big Board. Recently wrestled 182 @ Super32. Mastro is in one of the pics.

 
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Air_Thurman said:
I'm not sure what happened but I think it was said he is currently not on the team but could be back 2nd semester.
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Marsden has an undisclosed illness according to John and has not been in the room. He did not close out the possibility that he could be back this year but did not say he would.
 
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Wrassler17 said:
That's a different topic. We were talking about OU being good, not about the conference being good.

Yes, a strong Big12 would help us. But those other teams are not a risk to grab our local talent. In fact, the best case scenario might be for us to be #1 in the country, the rest of the Big12 to be top 15, and then OU to be #40.

Maybe it's because people are nostalgic for the competitive Bedlam days? I have not followed the team as long as many on here, so I don't have a connection to those duals. To me OU is just a distraction, something in the way of us toppling PSU.
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I would leave OU as a distraction for right now. They are in no way something that is in the way of us toppling PSU. That’s whole different can of worms that doesn’t involve OU at all.
 
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Just some things to consider:

Hazewinkel, Ware, Flaggert, and Hager combined for 10 all-Americans from 03-06. These Oklahomans didn’t prevent OSU from winning those championships.

In the 7 years that OSU won championships going back to ‘89, ou placed: 4, 7, 8, 3, 9, 3 and 3.
Out of the other 24 years, ou only placed in the top ten 8 times.

It seems that when ou and Iowa State help to make the Big 12 more competitive, more kids from OH, NJ, CA, etc. want to wrestle at Oklahoma State. We have heard many kids in recent years say they only want to wrestle in the Big 10. For example, Mark Hall and in this next class, Padraic Gallagher.

More importantly, Oklahoma is producing improved levels of D1 prospects. At least in these next few classes. The potential seems to be there to have a national title caliber team with the lineup being 50/50 in state/out of state even when missing out on a Picklo type occasionally.
 
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proud2bpokes said:
Just some things to consider:

Hazewinkel, Ware, Flaggert, and Hager combined for 10 all-Americans from 03-06. These Oklahomans didn’t prevent OSU from winning those championships.

In the 7 years that OSU won championships going back to ‘89, ou placed: 4, 7, 8, 3, 9, 3 and 3.
Out of the other 24 years, ou only placed in the top ten 8 times.

It seems that when ou and Iowa State help to make the Big 12 more competitive, more kids from OH, NJ, CA, etc. want to wrestle at Oklahoma State. We have heard many kids in recent years say they only want to wrestle in the Big 10. For example, Mark Hall and in this next class, Padraic Gallagher.

More importantly, Oklahoma is producing improved levels of D1 prospects. At least in these next few classes. The potential seems to be there to have a national title caliber team with the lineup being 50/50 in state/out of state even when missing out on a Picklo type occasionally.
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Great post!
 
I think the tate picklo saga is way overblown IMO...Look the kid went to OU. Obviously the younger transferring to OU play a factor. Sure, at some point it looked like he was going to wear orange and black, but things change.

Here's the reality.....as much as I want to lock up every Oklahoma kid, every regional kid around our area, but reality is it's not likely to happen. Every once in awhile, a kid will slip out of the crack. Some kids will decide to be different, and will go off the forbidden path. Some kids will want to be part of a rebuild. It happens, it's recruiting...... 17-18 yr old kids have different reasons on why they choose a school. Give Roselli and staff credit...they had a plan, a vision and sold it on the kid, and he bought it.

At the end of the day...it stings sure, but it's not the end of the world, and it's not like we don't have quality commits. Tate Picklo isn't the first highly in-state wrestler to choose OU, and he likely won't be the last. I'm sure they'll be another. As long as we win the MASS MAJORITY of the recruiting in-state, regional battles as well as our fair share of national battles with other programs we should be in great shape.
 
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You made several good points. Basically (1) OSU won before when OU was a strong team (2) a strong Big12 draws more guys that want to wrestle in the conference (3) a strong Oklahoma youth program (like now) acts as a feeder system for the college programs.

So how about instead of talking about OU as a threat, we focus on those points? Might be a more interesting discussion (maybe not though)...

(1) What is different today compared to those championships of the past? The RTCs. I'm not sure it can even be overstated how significant their impact has been and continues to be on recruiting. PSU is a monster right now. Iowa is approaching 500 members in their $300/year donation club (which Brands actively promotes). Koll said the bulk of his time is spent on the NYRTC, with fundraising and securing apparel sponsors for his guys. The Princeton head coach was quoted as saying the RTC doesn't support the college program, the college program supports the RTC. Just think about that fundamental shift in mindset for a second. And Princeton's recruiting has taken off recently because of the NJRTC. It's a different world today.

(2) The conference thing I'm not so sure about. On one hand, Cornell has dominated the EIWA for well over a decade and it has not hurt them. And while some guys have said they only want to wrestle in the Big10, Amos specifically said it wasn't a factor at all. In general though a strong Big12 can only help - just not a very strong OU IMO. Also I think a big part of the conference draw is TV coverage/Flo coverage. It will be very interesting to see if ESPN+ impacts Big12 recruiting.

(3) I agree about OK producing a lot of top talent lately. The problem (as I see it anyway), is that it's not enough to share unfortunately. We simply don't have the #s of a PA, OH or NJ. We should be right in the mix for a team title over the coming years and 141-157 look to be need weights. Are you saying losing Jordan Williams and/or Zack Blankenship to OU wouldn't hurt our chances? That's my point about them.

If people are sure that we will continue to get every top local guy targeted, then great, let OU get the others. I'm just not certain of that. I want to see OSU wrestling back on top (like everyone else) and it is harder now than ever. We need to be almost perfect and cannot afford any missed opportunities.
 
You are right. The landscape has changed considerably since 2006. Your post sums up nicely the 3 disadvantage OSU has seen the last 10+ years: (1) no RTC funding; (2) a weak Big 12; and (3) a lack of a large quantity of elite in-state prospects.

We have beaten the RTC dead horse. The last two are somewhat related to each other. Oklahoma needs to produce the type of talent I remember when I started following the sport in the mid 90’s and up to about 2002. It appears the next few classes and possibly beyond give reason for optimism. By my count, the next 3 classes have 12 guys that have been included in at least one publications top 50 prospects for their respective class. With Ferrari, Trevor Mastro, Burks, and hopefully Travis Mastro, Vic V., and Haas combined with instate studs Surber, Plott and Doucet, we can’t sign all of the remaining 9. We are going to lose some of them to somebody. If they become All-Americans at a Big 12 school, it elevates the profile of the conference and OSU. I am glad Amos was open but I want ALL prospects nationwide to be open to OSU and the Big 12.

ou has always fielded their best teams when feeding off of OSU’s success. Picklo picking ou is affirmation of where OSU is heading.
 
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proud2bpokes said:
For the record, I do not want to lose Williams and Blankenship. Most the country knows all about Jordan by now, but I don’t think many out of the state know how good Zach Blankenship is yet.
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Williams, Blankenship, and little Ferrari are prolly the ones I want the most for 2022.
 
Blankenship is crazy good. His Tulsa Nationals matches are on Flo. He beat the #3 guy in the 2023 class fairly easily in the finals.

I pretty much agree with your points. Just one thing however - don't worry, the horse won't feel it - I'm not sure the RTCs can be separated from any recruiting discussion. If we jumped into the post grad piece, I don't think there would be any hesitation with recruits coming here or to the Big12. We're seeing that with Iowa St (Carr, maybe Facundo) and now OU. Same with the ACC conference as NCST & UNC have invested in their RTCs.
 
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I just don't see as the "skies falling" cause we lost picklo. As long as we're getting top 2-3 classes I think we can afford to lose a guy like picklo. Can't get them all at the end of the day. It's the reality of recruiting regardless of any sport. Seems like the future is bright. By the way, since recruiting isn't an exact science Picklo is a 2021 recruit and last time I checked he hasn't signed. Maybe he flips to us who knows.
 
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TheJimReaper said:
Williams, Blankenship, and little Ferrari are prolly the ones I want the most for 2022.
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For 2021 young Mastro and Haas would make for a good class. As you indicated for 2022 those 3 would make for a very good class but I also like Rogers and Wiley ( Oklahoma kid who really came out of nowhere to be rated 18 in the class). It will be interesting what young Ferrari and Jordan Williams weigh by their senior years.
 
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Do you know what really drove the run of championships we had in 2003-06?? Gator WC. Having 5-8 people in the room and around the room of Olympic caliber. We have always had great recruiting classes. We have always had adequate facilities and a tough schedule. What we don't have that PSU, Ohio State, and Iowa currently are building is Olympic caliber athletes in the room post graduation. We don't have that in comparison to then. It's funny how the national championship usually goes to the team with the most & best talent in their room beyond their coaching staff. We need that again. Now, we are starting to lose recruits who are all but committed to OSU since 9th grade. Hell, his twin sister plays soccer for OSU!

Losing Tate hurts, but it's not why I'm acting like the sky is falling. It's because we have forgotten what made us so great 15 years ago, and we are refusing to join in the fray that would put us back up there again. But, it's nice that we got another team's old locker room now. SMH.
 
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Just a reminder: we are about to sign what may be the best class in school history and we got the top two p4p recruits in the country.

Also, I think the '21 class is going to be a monster class (but not as big).
 
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OState Cowboys said it better (and in far fewer words) than me. I'm taking notes from now on.
 
OState Cowboys said:
Do you know what really drove the run of championships we had in 2003-06?? Gator WC. Having 5-8 people in the room and around the room of Olympic caliber. We have always had great recruiting classes. We have always had adequate facilities and a tough schedule. What we don't have that PSU, Ohio State, and Iowa currently are building is Olympic caliber athletes in the room post graduation. We don't have that in comparison to then. It's funny how the national championship usually goes to the team with the most & best talent in their room beyond their coaching staff. We need that again. Now, we are starting to lose recruits who are all but committed to OSU since 9th grade. Hell, his twin sister plays soccer for OSU!

Losing Tate hurts, but it's not why I'm acting like the sky is falling. It's because we have forgotten what made us so great 15 years ago, and we are refusing to join in the fray that would put us back up there again. But, it's nice that we got another team's old locker room now. SMH.
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Last night I watched a tape of Wiley after winning Fargo and they talked about how good Oklahoma freestyle teams are. Wiley indicated how Guerrero and the Oklahoma RTC has been a big part of this. I think last year Picklo said something similar after winning Fargo. Oklahoma State with our history should have a strong RTC and there does not have to be any cheating going on. I like our direction now but RTC improvements and facility improvements are also important.
 
Harleycowboy said:
Last night I watched a tape of Wiley after winning Fargo and they talked about how good Oklahoma freestyle teams are. Wiley indicated how Guerrero and the Oklahoma RTC has been a big part of this. I think last year Picklo said something similar after winning Fargo. Oklahoma State with our history should have a strong RTC and there does not have to be any cheating going on. I like our direction now but RTC improvements and facility improvements are also important.
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Tell me, who is the last big name to move to Stillwater to train? Someone who isn't an alum. We have been in the business of producing medalists.. then losing them. Holder has publicly stated he's making a new facility a priority.. But what and who are we going to put in there that makes Kyle Snyder consider us when he starts looking at other RTC's to move to?
 
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