JB's Comments About John Smith - "He's the best that ever did it"

[Wrassler17]

This is an interview with Jordan Burroughs at the World Team Camp earlier this month. JB always gives a great interview. Around the 5:15 mark, he talks about the coaches that he's worked with and he has some nice things to say about John Smith. The actual comments only last for about 30 seconds. I just thought it was pretty cool for one of the greatest competitors of this generation to recognize John's knowledge and mindset regarding wrestling.

 

[oberebo]

This is an interview with Jordan Burroughs at the World Team Camp earlier this month. JB always gives a great interview. Around the 5:15 mark, he talks about the coaches that he's worked with and he has some nice things to say about John Smith. The actual comments only last for about 30 seconds. I just thought it was pretty cool for one of the greatest competitors of this generation to recognize John's knowledge and mindset regarding wrestling.

View embedded media

Great interview Wrassler, thanks for posting.

 

[CowboyUp61]

He is just repeating what we already know!

 

[Wrassler17]

I saw this on twitter and thought it was pretty cool. Before winning the first of his six consecutive gold medals, John Smith already had wins over the 1983/1985 and the (eventual) 1986 World Champions.

We know true sophomore John Smith lost to Jim Jordan (the father of our current volunteer coach Zeke Jordan) in the 1985 NCAA finals. In an interview with David Mirikitani back in June, he said that Jordan shut him down completely. He thought to himself, I'm not sure I beat him if we wrestle again in a week or even if we wrestle again in 6 months. John knew he had to get better.

So just how much did he improve after that match? Well, we also know that he spent his 1986 redshirt year perfecting his low single and then would reel off 6 straight gold medals (plus 2 NCAA titles). But before winning that first gold, he beat the eventual 1986 World Champion Khazar Issaev of the USSR. John did not compete in the 1986 World Championships (they were held late that year, in late October) or it is very likely he would have won 7 straight gold medals (instead Issaev went on to beat Joe McFarland for the gold).

Here is their 1986 Goodwill Games match (before John's first gold and his first NCAA title):


Then in April 1987, 2 weeks after winning his first NCAA title (but still before his first gold), John defeated Viktor Alexeev of the USSR in a dual. Alexeev was the 1983 and 1985 World Champion.
Here is their match:


So John beat the 1983/1985 and (would be) 1986 world champs before winning his first gold. He was pretty good at that wrestling thing.

 

[SAWolverine]

Great find. I enjoyed those 2 matches!!!

 

[Old Number Nine]

I remember seeing the second video years ago and I always have wondered, what do you call the move Smith hits at 2:45?

 

[CowboyUp61]

I remember seeing the second video years ago and I always have wondered, what do you call the move Smith hits at 2:45?

mat awareness

 

[wehweh]

Smith's move at the 2:45 mark is called the "Metzgar".

 

[Wrassler17]

The Cowboy RTC account retweeted this link. It's from the same twitter account that I referenced in a post up above. This time the author goes into even more detail and embeds more matches. Some good stuff here!

https://wrestlingquoter.wordpress.c...hn-smith-86-92/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

 

[CowboyUp61]

lots of fun watching those! Got to watch some in person, and time had dulled the memory. thanks for posting!

 

[Wrassler17]

I saw on instagram that the Beloglazov twins, Sergei and Anatoly, have been giving various clinics across the country. Last week they were in Oklahoma and it reminded me of this match posted by OkieSpladle (on TOM) a couple of months ago.

This is John Smith vs Sergei at the 1989 World Grand Championships. Sergie was a 2x Olympic champion and a 6x World champion (seven at 57 kg and one at 62 kg). So that's 14 gold medals represented on the mat in this one. Have I mentioned that John was pretty good at that wrestling thing?

 

[Wrassler17]

Sergie Beloglazov was just named head coach of the Michigan RTC. But that's really just an excuse for me to come back to this thread...

It just dawned on me that John Smith beat every 1982-1986 world champion (62 kg). He beat the ones I listed above, plus he beat 1984 Olympic champ Randy Lewis at the 1988 Olympic Trials. So he defeated all of the 1982-1986 world champs and then won gold himself from 1987-1992.

Did I mention he was pretty good at wrestling?

 

[lookleft goright]

Sergie Beloglazov was just named head coach of the Michigan RTC. But that's really just an excuse for me to come back to this thread...

It just dawned on me that John Smith beat every 1982-1986 world champion (62 kg). He beat the ones I listed above, plus he beat 1984 Olympic champ Randy Lewis at the 1988 Olympic Trials. So he defeated all of the 1982-1986 world champs and then won gold himself from 1987-1992.

Did I mention he was pretty good at wrestling?

You know I was wondering. Was John Smith any good at that wrestling thin?

 

[lookleft goright]

I love how artistic (for lack of a better word) Smith was. Some guys look at wrestling as brute force and forcing your will on the other guy etc.. and some treat it as a graceful and beautiful sport. Smith was graceful and watching him wrestling was to see beauty in action. On top of that, he was mentally as tough as nails. He was pretty good at that wrestling thing. Or so I have heard.

 

[Wrassler17]

I love how artistic (for lack of a better word) Smith was. Some guys look at wrestling as brute force and forcing your will on the other guy etc.. and some treat it as a graceful and beautiful sport. Smith was graceful and watching him wrestling was to see beauty in action. On top of that, he was mentally as tough as nails. He was pretty good at that wrestling thing. Or so I have heard.

I agree, more Apollo Creed than Clubber Lang.

Oh and you heard right BTW.

 

[Wrassler17]

With the 2018 MFS World Championships wrapped up, it's time to return to the John Smith appreciation thread.

Only one of the 2017 MFS champs was able to repeat this year -- Petriashvili (GEO, 125 kg). Burroughs and Snyder may have lost, yes, but so did the following -- Yazdani (IRI, 86 kg) Chamizo (ITA, 70/74 kg), Aliyev (AZE, 61 kg), Takahashi (JPN, 57 kg) and Lakobishvili (GEO, 65 kg).

JO summed it up with this tweet on day 2 - BOW DOWN!

 

[BanjoSaysWoof]

With the 2018 MFS World Championships wrapped up, it's time to return to the John Smith appreciation thread.

Only one of the 2017 MFS champs was able to repeat this year -- Petriashvili (GEO, 125 kg). Burroughs and Snyder may have lost, yes, but so did the following -- Yazdani (IRI, 86 kg) Chamizo (ITA, 70/74 kg), Aliyev (AZE, 61 kg), Takahashi (JPN, 57 kg) and Lakobishvili (GEO, 65 kg).

JO summed it up with this tweet on day 2 - BOW DOWN!

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I think "kids nowadays" need to see this. I was talking with my friend's kid (kid is a 15 year old in Ohio who wrestles) while we played fortnite together (judge not lest ye be judged). He tried to convince me Kyle Snyder is the best American wrestler ever.

He had no idea who Aleksandr Karelin was. Or why the name Rulon Gardner is relevant.

I need to tell that kid to get off my lawn, huh?

 

[OkieSpladle]

I think "kids nowadays" need to see this. I was talking with my friend's kid (kid is a 15 year old in Ohio who wrestles) while we played fortnite together (judge not lest ye be judged). He tried to convince me Kyle Snyder is the best American wrestler ever.

He had no idea who Aleksandr Karelin was. Or why the name Rulon Gardner is relevant.

I need to tell that kid to get off my lawn, huh?

Until yesterday John Smith had more losses at Senior-level World Championships/Olympics than Snyder did. Karelin too for that matter.

You know what Snyder, Smith, Karelin, Burroughs, and a bunch of others have in common? They're all freaking amazing!

 

[Wrassler17]

I think "kids nowadays" need to see this. I was talking with my friend's kid (kid is a 15 year old in Ohio who wrestles) while we played fortnite together (judge not lest ye be judged). He tried to convince me Kyle Snyder is the best American wrestler ever.

He had no idea who Aleksandr Karelin was. Or why the name Rulon Gardner is relevant.

I need to tell that kid to get off my lawn, huh?

That or next time put him in a headlock and deliver some nuggies.

 

[Wrassler17]

Until yesterday John Smith had more losses at Senior-level World Championships/Olympics than Snyder did. Karelin too for that matter.

You know what Snyder, Smith, Karelin, Burroughs, and a bunch of others have in common? They're all freaking amazing!

Spladle, I agree they are all great, but only one of them has all yellow medals.

I think you are referring to John's late round SV loss to Reinoso (CUB) in 1992. But to be fair, I think that should be put into context. Under the tournament scoring at that time, the tie breaker for determining tournament advancement was total points scored. John had a huge lead heading into that Reinoso match, basically he was going to the finals unless he got pinned. I'm sure he wasn't happy about dropping the match, but I think if that was an elimination bout, he likely wrestles it very differently.

When it was crunch time, John was "gold". The GOAT.

 

[OkieSpladle]

Spladle, I agree they are all great, but only one of them has all yellow medals.

I think you are referring to John's late round SV loss to Reinoso (CUB) in 1992. But to be fair, I think that should be put into context. Under the tournament scoring at that time, the tie breaker for determining tournament advancement was total points scored. John had a huge lead heading into that Reinoso match, basically he was going to the finals unless he got pinned. I'm sure he wasn't happy about dropping the match, but I think if that was an elimination bout, he likely wrestles it very differently.

When it was crunch time, John was "gold". The GOAT.

Oh, I know the context. Maybe he would have won had he needed to, maybe he would not have. He certainly knew where he stood. After Snyder's loss this year, there is no question in this debate, but at the time of the conversation in question (if I'm reading that right) Snyder had all yellow medals too.

My point by bringing up Smith's loss is that comparing across eras can be tricky. Scoring changes, rules change, and the system of competition changes. In Smith's era, you needed to beat one Soviet. Now, 10 of those guys compete (at least). In the old days, there was very little film (or none) on some of these guys. Now, almost everyone that shows up at a World Championships/Olympics is a known quantity. I could go on, but you get the idea.

6 for 6 is easy to use as a comparison tool and you'll get no argument from me putting Smith as the best to ever do it. I just think its important to appreciate the greats of every era as well.

 

[Wrassler17]

Oh, I know the context. Maybe he would have won had he needed to, maybe he would not have. He certainly knew where he stood. After Snyder's loss this year, there is no question in this debate, but at the time of the conversation in question (if I'm reading that right) Snyder had all yellow medals too.

My point by bringing up Smith's loss is that comparing across eras can be tricky. Scoring changes, rules change, and the system of competition changes. In Smith's era, you needed to beat one Soviet. Now, 10 of those guys compete (at least). In the old days, there was very little film (or none) on some of these guys. Now, almost everyone that shows up at a World Championships/Olympics is a known quantity. I could go on, but you get the idea.

6 for 6 is easy to use as a comparison tool and you'll get no argument from me putting Smith as the best to ever do it. I just think its important to appreciate the greats of every era as well.

Spladle, I figured you would know the context/situation. You raise some very good points, although I don't necessarily agree with everything. The first thing I'll say is that I do agree that we should appreciate the "greats" of wrestling. JB, Snyder, Saitiev, and Sadulaev - all superstars, along with others. But debating the greatest ever is fun, whether it's wrestling or another sport. Certainly no slights are intended.

The circumstances of the Reinoso match are important in my opinion. I actually watched it again last night and I forgot that John was the aggressor throughout (attacks were probably 6-1 in favor of John). You say maybe he would have won if had to or maybe he wouldn't have. But you have to compete with the rules in place at the time, right? My analogy would be (when it was still best of 3 periods in FS) someone winning the 1st period, dropping the 2nd, and then winning the 3rd. No one would remember (or care) about that 2nd period. Both John and Reinoso knew entering the match that Reinoso needed to win big, yet Reinoso took only 1 shot (in SV actually and he didn't score off of it).

I do agree with you, however, that the breakup of the USSR has resulted in much deeper brackets today. Makes things very tough. But on your point about film, was anyone more heavily scouted than John at the time? He competed for years at Worlds, the Olympics, the World Cup, Pan Ams, exhibition matches, etc. The USSR had a ton of film on him, scoured their "Union", and still couldn't find someone to beat him under the bright lights.

And finally...John's 1992 Olympic final...gold #6 at age 26, just a few days shy of his 27th birthday. The GOAT.

 

[OkieSpladle]

Spladle, I figured you would know the context/situation. You raise some very good points, although I don't necessarily agree with everything. The first thing I'll say is that I do agree that we should appreciate the "greats" of wrestling. JB, Snyder, Saitiev, and Sadulaev - all superstars, along with others. But debating the greatest ever is fun, whether it's wrestling or another sport. Certainly no slights are intended.

The circumstances of the Reinoso match are important in my opinion. I actually watched it again last night and I forgot that John was the aggressor throughout (attacks were probably 6-1 in favor of John). You say maybe he would have won if had to or maybe he wouldn't have. But you have to compete with the rules in place at the time, right? My analogy would be (when it was still best of 3 periods in FS) someone winning the 1st period, dropping the 2nd, and then winning the 3rd. No one would remember (or care) about that 2nd period. Both John and Reinoso knew entering the match that Reinoso needed to win big, yet Reinoso took only 1 shot (in SV actually and he didn't score off of it).

I do agree with you, however, that the breakup of the USSR has resulted in much deeper brackets today. Makes things very tough. But on your point about film, was anyone more heavily scouted than John at the time? He competed for years at Worlds, the Olympics, the World Cup, Pan Ams, exhibition matches, etc. The USSR had a ton of film on him, scoured their "Union", and still couldn't find someone to beat him under the bright lights.

And finally...John's 1992 Olympic final...gold #6 at age 26, just a few days shy of his 27th birthday. The GOAT.

I didn't intend to suggest all those things are in favor of one era over the other. Certainly, Smith was one of if not the most scouted wrestler in the world for most of his run and had to deal with opponents who he and the coaches might have never seen before. That doesn't happen now. It is a point in favor of John, no question. The Soviet era versus now thing is hard to quantify. It makes the fields deeper, but the best guy isn't necessarily better because of it (it is possible that now and then a guy who would have been the back-up is in better form by the tournament). Point in favor of the post-Soviet era, but how big that point is is debatable.

As to the Reinoso match in general, of course you wrestle under the rules you have. There is no asterisk next to that gold medal. I was simply pointing out that had Snyder won and ultimately gone 6 for 6, that is something that could have been pointed do as a differentiator. Kyle lost so we don't have to cross that bridge. Had Burroughs won that would have been an interesting debate too. To me, 6 straight beats 6 total with a bronze and a DNP mixed in, but some disagree. Bruce Baumgartner's resume is insane and Dan Gable's peak was incredible, if very short. How could you possible compare the two?

I always struggle with these debates because there is no definitive answer and too often I think some fans don't appreciate what is in front of them because they're too busy saying, well, they aren't as great as X guy from the past (not necessarily what is going on here...it is impossible to discern tone precisely on a message board)! Of course, that doesn't stop anyone from debating it, nor should it.

 

[Wrassler17]

I didn't intend to suggest all those things are in favor of one era over the other. Certainly, Smith was one of if not the most scouted wrestler in the world for most of his run and had to deal with opponents who he and the coaches might have never seen before. That doesn't happen now. It is a point in favor of John, no question. The Soviet era versus now thing is hard to quantify. It makes the fields deeper, but the best guy isn't necessarily better because of it (it is possible that now and then a guy who would have been the back-up is in better form by the tournament). Point in favor of the post-Soviet era, but how big that point is is debatable.

As to the Reinoso match in general, of course you wrestle under the rules you have. There is no asterisk next to that gold medal. I was simply pointing out that had Snyder won and ultimately gone 6 for 6, that is something that could have been pointed do as a differentiator. Kyle lost so we don't have to cross that bridge. Had Burroughs won that would have been an interesting debate too. To me, 6 straight beats 6 total with a bronze and a DNP mixed in, but some disagree. Bruce Baumgartner's resume is insane and Dan Gable's peak was incredible, if very short. How could you possible compare the two?

I always struggle with these debates because there is no definitive answer and too often I think some fans don't appreciate what is in front of them because they're too busy saying, well, they aren't as great as X guy from the past (not necessarily what is going on here...it is impossible to discern tone precisely on a message board)! Of course, that doesn't stop anyone from debating it, nor should it.

Hopefully my tone isn't coming across as argumentative. I just enjoy a good sports debate. Doesn't even have to be about wrestling. And I try not to remain steadfast in my opinions when someone raises good points.

The hard part (fun part for me) is trying to come up with objective criteria to determine the greatest. With wrestling it starts with results at the Olympics and Worlds. They are the pinnacle of the sport and everyone peaks for them. JB is fantastic and a great ambassador for wrestling and the USA. But if he had won a 6th gold, I wouldn't have placed his record above John's 6 for 6. Same with Gable, I would have to put him above Bruce (without looking more closely at their careers). Maybe that's a simplistic view, but to me perfection matters. Then you can look at things like dominance, career wins and losses, strength of competition, winning streaks, etc.

Anyway...good discussion.

 

[OHkie]

Another part of this Askren brought up on the Rudis podcast is the difference of 6 weights vs 10 and if it’s harder now because of only 6 weights at the Olympics, less diluted. It was an interesting conversation and brought up some points I hadn’t thought about. They specifically talked about John, Jordan, and Kyle

 

[OkieSpladle]

Hopefully my tone isn't coming across as argumentative. I just enjoy a good sports debate. Doesn't even have to be about wrestling. And I try not to remain steadfast in my opinions when someone raises good points.

The hard part (fun part for me) is trying to come up with objective criteria to determine the greatest. With wrestling it starts with results at the Olympics and Worlds. They are the pinnacle of the sport and everyone peaks for them. JB is fantastic and a great ambassador for wrestling and the USA. But if he had won a 6th gold, I wouldn't have placed his record above John's 6 for 6. Same with Gable, I would have to put him above Bruce (without looking more closely at their careers). Maybe that's a simplistic view, but to me perfection matters. Then you can look at things like dominance, career wins and losses, strength of competition, winning streaks, etc.

Anyway...good discussion.

Agreed, good discussion and OHkie also makes a good point about the number of weight classes which has been another variable in the modern era in particular.

The Gable/Baumgartner thing is impossible which is why I used it. Gable was perfect, but for 2 years. There have been several wrestlers over the years that won 2 in a row, then lost later (Snyder and Burroughs, for example). How long he would have gone before losing is anyone's guess. Comparing someone like that to 5 golds, 4 silvers, and 4 bronzes just doesn't work. Luckily, going forward I doubt we see guys retiring early like they used to unless there is an injury involved.

 

[osu2082]

Another factor that greatly benifits the wrestlers of today is the fully finder RTCs and their ability to make a living being professionally wrestlers essentially.

No other job or major coaching duties. They are provided the best of the best year round in terms of training facilities, partners, nutrition and sports medicine and are fully financially supported to totalt devote themselves towards their goals.

 

[Wrassler17]

A lot of good points being made about some of the differences between today and years past.

The Gable vs Baumgartner thing is super tough. To be fair, there should probably be a minimum # of competition years. 2 really isn't enough, so maybe 3?

Baumgartner had an amazing run with remarkable consistency and longevity. But there are a couple of things that might work against him. First, he "only" won 2 in a row once in his 15 years, so there was no "dominant stretch" of being the best in the world. And second, he apparently didn't medal in 1982 and 1991 (finished 7th both years). Still, a fantastic career and obviously one of the best ever.

 

[osukev1988]

I love this debate and will only add that it amazes me that Uetake never gets mentioned in this discussion.

 

[Wrassler17]

I love this debate and will only add that it amazes me that Uetake never gets mentioned in this discussion.

Uetake was another great one. Is he the answer to a different question maybe? The greatest wrestler while in college?

This discussion has been about the greatest freestyle wrestler ever. John went 6 for 6. And Saitiev won 9 gold medals, including 3 Olympics (he lost in 2000 to Brandon Slay). I believe Uetake "only" won 2 golds, the 1964 & 1968 Olympics. But the first was during his undefeated college career.

So...?
greatest freestyle wrestler - John
greatest wrestler while in college - Uetake

Uetake article from a few years ago...
https://newsok.com/article/5436753/...ves-in-japan-but-his-heart-lies-in-stillwater

 

[Wrassler17]

Cool story...

 

[James P. Whitters III]

I was too young ( 5 when he won gold) to have judged Gable or anyone pre dating his dominance, but in my viewing lifetime John Smith is the greatest wrestler these eyes have ever seen. Cat like quickness and balance,amazing flexibility, and skills that had not been seen. The low single combined with the lightning quick high crotch to a crack down were unstoppable for mortal men. I don't believe I would ever tire of watching the legend wrestle. I show our youth kids video of Smith constantly and every kid watches the "How low can you go" instructional at some point. John Smith is the GOAT!

 

[Wrassler17]

The GOAT

 

[Wrassler17]

Flo ranked the 100 greatest American wrestlers of all time. The top 10:

10: Lee Kemp
9: Adeline Gray
8: Kyle Dake
7: Dan Gable
6: Cael Sanderson
5: Kyle Snyder
4: Helen Maroulis
3: Bruce Baumgartner
2: Jordan Burroughs
1: John "W" Smith

 

[oberebo]

Absolutely!

 

[BigD_cowboy]

Where was magic man?

 

[Wrassler17]

Where was magic man?

#15

 

[turfpoke]

We’ll, they got #1 correct.

 

[Harleycowboy]

Flo ranked the 100 greatest American wrestlers of all time. The top 10:

10: Lee Kemp
9: Adeline Gray
8: Kyle Dake
7: Dan Gable
6: Cael Sanderson
5: Kyle Snyder
4: Helen Maroulis
3: Bruce Baumgartner
2: Jordan Burroughs
1: John "W" Smith

I was listening to the whose number 1 podcast and all 3 podcasters felt Burroughs should have been number1 ahead of John Smith. It was very irritating listening to them.

 

[Wrassler17]

I was listening to the whose number 1 podcast and all 3 podcasters felt Burroughs should have been number1 ahead of John Smith. It was very irritating listening to them.

Well, consider the source - Flo ranked AJ as the 10th best prospect in the 2020 class. Embarrassing. I think this list was compiled by Kyle Klingman, a former Trackwrestling guy.

JB is great, but he's 1 for 3 in the Olympics - gold, DNP, didn't make the team. And John retired before he turned 27. He would have won another quad if he wanted. No brainer.