Illegal/Undocumented Immigrants

[Ponca Dan]

As I have said before I am philosophically an anarchist, a person who advocates for a stateless society. As an anarchist I don't think there ought to be countries, governments or borders. I think people should be able to move about freely without needing to get anyone's permission. So from my standpoint I don't think there ought to be any such thing as an illegal/undocumented immigrant. I am fully aware that my idea is part of a very small minority, that most people scoff at the idea, and, as such, it is not something I will see in my lifetime. I foresee the day when human beings evolve to that situation, but it will probably take decades or centuries to happen. I recognize that we do have countries with governments, and those governments view one of their main functions to be protecting the borders, having authority to decide who gets to enter, and who gets to leave.

As such America is faced with a dilemma as regards immigration into the country. Who gets in, and what to do to those that sneak in illegally. Some of our citizens want them rounded up and sent back to where they came. Others say there are 11 million or more of these people, we can't round up and deport all of them, we shouldn't even try, we should develop a "path to citizenship" or at least a program that allows them to stay. It is the "path to citizenship" people that I address my questions.

If the notion is accepted that people who have entered the country illegally should be given a path to citizenship, is there a limit on the number of people that should be accepted? Is there a line that can be crossed? If it is OK for 11 million people, is it OK for 20 million? 50 million? What would be the limit, and why do you draw it there? What is the rationale for the number you are comfortable with, and why do you stop there?

These are some questions I thought about last night, and I thought it would be an interesting topic for discussion on this board. Any takers?

 

[AC_Exotic]

We should do what we historically have done with immigrants. What will they contribute to America? Will they buy in to American ideals?

Bringing in immigrants that would place a greater burden on the welfare system would be foolish.

Finally, you might be the oldest anarchist on the planet.

 

[Ponca Dan]

We should do what we historically have done with immigrants. What will they contribute to America? Will they buy in to American ideals?

Bringing in immigrants that would place a greater burden on the welfare system would be foolish.

Finally, you might be the oldest anarchist on the planet.

Thanks for the reply. Your first two paragraphs were logical, but they do not address the question at hand. Is there a number of "illegals" that is acceptable, what is that number, and why?

You nailed me on the anarchist jab! I probably am the oldest anarchist! Do I get a prize for holding onto my principles for this long in the face of almost total rejection?

 

[imprimis]

Thanks for the reply. Your first two paragraphs were logical, but they do not address the question at hand. Is there a number of "illegals" that is acceptable, what is that number, and why?

Whatever the number is it is millions less than what we're dealing with.

 

[aix_xpert]

I don't have a number as I believe like you that any numeric limit is simply arbitrary. I think you have to do several things:

1) Require that all undocumented persons report themselves in order to be come eligible for the 'pipeline to citizenship' by a specified date. If you aren't on the list by said date, you are not eligible and will be subject to deportation immediately.

2) Review each applicant's societal contribution to determine whether they are a net positive or negative for our society.

3) For those whom have a net negative, either deport back to original country or if that's consider inhuman, deduct their estimate annual expense from our annualized United Nations payments as expenses for refugee and immigrant management. That way the UN (and the international community is footing the bill rather than just the U.S. taxpayer).

4) Enforce employment ID laws like e-verify. Can't believe how easy it is for illegals to use American's SSNs to get jobs, collect tax returns and otherwise commit identity theft.

This plan would allow us to better manage and accept refugees from problematic countries. Would set a cutoff date to minimize future illegal immigration (with or without the wall) by eliminating the incentives that current illegal immigrants have to come here. Allow for communities that believe in sanctuary policies to be more open (all you have to do is register) as well as receive better funding for those that they accept.

 

[AC_Exotic]

Temporary work visas is a way to deal with the huge influx of illegals. That way, they could still do the work they're doing, but their income would be taxable.

 

[Ostatedchi]

Not every visitor needs a path to citizenship. It isn't that difficult.

 

[COWBOYintheUK]

What pisses me off , is my wife is a legal resident alien (England) we got her Immigrant Visa in 1992 and moved back here shortly after..... even then it cost us around $2000 and took over a year, although some of that was because of my security clearance, it took a long took a little longer, so I just hate it that people cheat

 

[imprimis]

It always costs more to do the right thing.

 

[Ponca Dan]

It’s been 12 hours since my original post, and no one has sought to answer my questions directly. Am I to assume that no one on this board believes in a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants? That in and of itself would be a fascinating revelation.

 

[AC_Exotic]

It’s been 12 hours since my original post, and no one has sought to answer my questions directly. Am I to assume that no one on this board believes in a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants? That in and of itself would be a fascinating revelation.

No. They're breaking the freaking law.

 

[Ponca Dan]

No. They're breaking the freaking law.

I think we’re having a failure to communicate. It’s probably my fault. I know they’re breaking the law. You know they’re breaking the law. Even their defenders admit they’re breaking the law. My questions are for those defenders who think there should be a pathway to citizenship (or at least a pathway to legal status). For those people who think there should be a pathway, who say the government can’t and shouldn’t deport the 11 million, is there a number that can be reached before they say enough is enough, no more illegals, no more pathway. And why that number? I’m curious for them to defend their attitude.

So far all I’ve gotten are opinions on how to bring in immigrants. Interesting, but skirting the question. My questions are solely aimed at those people who advocate for a pathway to citizenship/legal status.

 

[Medic007]

I think we’re having a failure to communicate. It’s probably my fault. I know they’re breaking the law. You know they’re breaking the law. Even their defenders admit they’re breaking the law. My questions are for those defenders who think there should be a pathway to citizenship (or at least a pathway to legal status). For those people who think there should be a pathway, who say the government can’t and shouldn’t deport the 11 million, is there a number that can be reached before they say enough is enough, no more illegals, no more pathway. And why that number? I’m curious for them to defend their attitude.

So far all I’ve gotten are opinions on how to bring in immigrants. Interesting, but skirting the question. My questions are solely aimed at those people who advocate for a pathway to citizenship/legal status.

I used to be a yes. Now I'm a no, hell no.

Every single time mass amnesty has been granted, it has encouraged more illegal immigration of people who are counting on the next round of mass amnesty. The left has gone full retard giving them licenses, healthcare, welfare, and now even calls them undocumented citizens. Nope. We can't take great care of our own veterans, so I'm not interested in the helpless people from other countries. There's a legal path. Follow the rules and the law and citizenship can be yours.

Can we deport all 11+ million? Probably not, because finding them all will be challenging. But I'm in favor of deporting every single one that can be found.

 

[Ponca Dan]

I used to be a yes. Now I'm a no, hell no.

Every single time mass amnesty has been granted, it has encouraged more illegal immigration of people who are counting on the next round of mass amnesty. The left has gone full retard giving them licenses, healthcare, welfare, and now even calls them undocumented citizens. Nope. We can't take great care of our own veterans, so I'm not interested in the helpless people from other countries. There's a legal path. Follow the rules and the law and citizenship can be yours.

Can we deport all 11+ million? Probably not, because finding them all will be challenging. But I'm in favor of deporting every single one that can be found.

Kudos!

The only consistent arguments are yours: deport them all, they’re breaking the law and undermining government as rule of law, and mine: there should be no barriers to travel. The “pathway to citizenship” argument is a compromise position. And political compromises are almost universally disastrous.

But especially I give you kudos for pointing out there already is a pathway and it is being ignored by millions of people. Another blow to the concept of the rule of law.

I still would love to hear how an advocate would respond to my questions. Sys, davidallen: anything?

 

[Ostatedchi]

Here is the compromise.

Any illegal in the country can turn themselves in, pay back taxes for their time in country, get a temporary workers visa that must be annually renewed at a cost, then get in the back of the line for any citizenship if they want to pursue it (or never be given citizenship).

Anyone that doesn't turn themselves in, gets deported. And then start tracking down and rounding up illegals for immediate deportation.

All this happens after you build the wall.

 

[windriverrange]

Here is the compromise.

Any illegal in the country can turn themselves in, pay back taxes for their time in country, get a temporary workers visa that must be annually renewed at a cost, then get in the back of the line for any citizenship if they want to pursue it (or never be given citizenship).

Anyone that doesn't turn themselves in, gets deported. And then start tracking down and rounding up illegals for immediate deportation.

All this happens after you build the wall.

Whole heartily agree Ostatedchi!

UK, my wife is also from another country and the process to get a K-1 Visa (fiancée visa), to a 2-yr visa with condition to her current 10-yr with no conditions was long, expensive and horrendously time consuming. Not to mention if you make one mistake if filling out paperwork it can cost anywhere from $450-$650 USD. Dealing with USCIS is like having a root canal with no pain relief. The process (with help from a lawyer) was in excess of $5,000 USD. The citizenship test will be another $650.

There are 1,000's of AMERICAN CITIZENS, who have been robbed, raped, defrauded and murdered because of these bastards. School systems are spending $100,000 of thousands of dollars they don't have, trying to educate (first step being teaching english) children being brought over (saw firsthand as a teacher in Texas), hospitals/health care are burdened by expenses for care that they have no hope of ever regaining and contrary to often trotted out liberal excuse that they pay their fair share in taxes that is total and unadulterated bull shit. The prison systems are full of these criminal ass wipes which is also an undue burden on taxpayers and prevents proper resources being devoted to native born criminals.

Ostatedchi's solution is an excellent one, but I will add NO MORE FREAKIN BIRTHRIGHT CITIZENSHIP!. That was an amendment rightfully created to make slaves citizens of this great country after the War Betwen The States, not bequeath citizenship to a bunch of 3rd world, uneducated criminals who flop out their hordes of children in The US. Lastly, any foreign criminal in our prison system that is subsequently released is full body tattooed so they can be recognized as a scumbag criminal in their native country as well if they slip across the border again. Any country not taking their scumbag criminals back receive not one more dollar of aid from the US, ever!

This is an eminently solvable problem, unfortunately the country is beset by politicians with no spines, no resolve and fat pensions who will never have to deal with the issues regular citizens and taxpayers deal with. And before the lobs here go nuts, if your so set on keeping these ILLEGAL CRIMINALS IN THIS COUNTRY, open up your wallets and houses to take them in, to feed, educate, take care of their healthcare needs and make them successful. Otherwise round all of them up, end the incentives for their presence and clean out the trash.

One final story. My wife has a friend that helps take care of her parents, in São Paulo. She makes sure they get their medical care, they are eating properly and keeps my father-in-law company (he has dementia) when my mother-in-law has to go shopping. My step-daughter, in Stillwater, is due to give birth in December and this young lady offered to fly up to the US, and take care of the infant for 6 months. She didn't want pay, has enough money for her own health needs (she is young) and simply wanted to help. She was turned down for a visa (for the 4th time btw) because she has a small business out of her apartment and doesn't meet the financial threshold to get a visa. What a load of shit! You have 1,000's pouring across the border, over overstaying visa's and they are basically welcomed by a segment of this gutless society, yet those who want to visit or immigrate legally, are held up by red tape and horseshit rules.

I'm for legal immigration, from primarily countries who value education so those who do immigrate contribute to the greatness of a country continuing to innovate and a beacon of destination for all the right things, not primarily countries whose educational system is garbage and who's kids and maybe themselves will almost immediately become a burden to the system. People need to fight for the betterment of their native land, even if it means some die.

 

[imprimis]

Here is the compromise.

Any illegal in the country can turn themselves in, pay back taxes for their time in country, get a temporary workers visa that must be annually renewed at a cost, then get in the back of the line for any citizenship if they want to pursue it (or never be given citizenship).

Anyone that doesn't turn themselves in, gets deported. And then start tracking down and rounding up illegals for immediate deportation.

All this happens after you build the wall.

And a prohibition on voting for 25 years.

 

[Medic007]

there should be no barriers to travel.

Illegal immigration isn't "travel."

 

[Ponca Dan]

Illegal immigration isn't "travel."

OK, pick that nit if you want. You know what I mean.

 

[Medic007]

OK, pick that nit if you want. You know what I mean.

If you mean open borders with no nation states, are we really ready to allow ourselves to be subjected to the likes of ISIS?

I always enjoy your views and opinions as I've never really had much exposure to a self claimed anarchist's way of thinking. Humans have always had some form of governing. Some good. Most bad. I don't believe humans can have any realistic success of governing themselves without societal imposed law without the elimination of at least money and religion from society.

 

[Ponca Dan]

If you mean open borders with no nation states, are we really ready to allow ourselves to be subjected to the likes of ISIS?

I always enjoy your views and opinions as I've never really had much exposure to a self claimed anarchist's way of thinking. Humans have always had some form of governing. Some good. Most bad. I don't believe humans can have any realistic success of governing themselves without societal imposed law without the elimination of at least money and religion from society.

As I said in the opening paragraph of this thread I do not think human beings are evolved to the point that they will accept anarchism as a guiding societal practice. It is the goal for which we should seek. It is a dream that should not be allowed to die. It will never happen as long as we believe violence is an acceptable practice. The only way to overcome the acceptance of violence is to change minds of one person at a time.

As regards freedom to travel/immigrate. If I as a business owner want to hire Miguel from Mexico, and Miguel wants to move to Oklahoma and come work for me, why is that anyone’s business outside of Miguel and me? If I opted to move to Mexico and start a business, or become an employee at a Mexican company, why should I have to get permission from an outside force to do so? The only answer I am given is “because the government says so.” No one should accept that as reasonable.

 

[Medic007]

As regards freedom to travel/immigrate. If I as a business owner want to hire Miguel from Mexico, and Miguel wants to move to Oklahoma and come work for me, why is that anyone’s business outside of Miguel and me? If I opted to move to Mexico and start a business, or become an employee at a Mexican company, why should I have to get permission from an outside force to do so? The only answer I am given is “because the government says so.” No one should accept that as reasonable.

Under the exact same thought, I want to hire Osama bin Laden to come be a cardiologist in Oklahoma. Osama has direct ties to Islamic extremists. I really don't care, because I'm one myself and would like plenty more to join me.

 

[MegaPoke]

It’s been 12 hours since my original post, and no one has sought to answer my questions directly. Am I to assume that no one on this board believes in a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants? That in and of itself would be a fascinating revelation.

I think at this point the reality is we have to provide something that eventually grants citizenship to those already here. There's just too many to do anything else.

That said, it needs to include two things. 1. A dedicated solution to stopping future illegal aliens from simply perpetuating the problem. A tough solution that works, whatever that is.

And 2. Naturalized illegals need some kind of penalty for cheating the system. I propose a significant fine and a prohibition on voting rights until that fine is paid or some significant period of time has passed.

Also - as to your borderless society ideal, it sounds great but is many generations away from being a feasible reality and human nature isn't changing fast enough to keep up with societal evolutions. Unintended consequences to that idea seem limitless. This is why libertarianism is best as a key (main) ingredient to a personalized political ethos than it is as a pure, concentrated ideology - it doesn't always take the worst of human nature into account. And I say that as someone who is more libertarian than any other ideology.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Under the exact same thought, I want to hire Osama bin Laden to come be a cardiologist in Oklahoma. Osama has direct ties to Islamic extremists. I really don't care, because I'm one myself and would like plenty more to join me.

I understand the fear. We have been taught from Day One in government schools that the state and only the state can protect us from evil. It is a terrifying thought to imagine life without the safety net provided by the state. It’s all we have known so it is very difficult to imagine another way of living.

For the umpteenth time let me reiterate that my way of thinking is no more than a blip on society’s radar. You have nothing to fear from my philosophy. It will never be accepted in your lifetime. The concept of individuals free from governmental restraints is unthinkable for most people.

 

[Ponca Dan]

I think at this point the reality is we have to provide something that eventually grants citizenship to those already here. There's just too many to do anything else.

That said, it needs to include two things. 1. A dedicated solution to stopping future illegal aliens from simply perpetuating the problem. A tough solution that works, whatever that is.

And 2. Naturalized illegals need some kind of penalty for cheating the system. I propose a significant fine and a prohibition on voting rights until that fine is paid or some significant period of time has passed.

Also - as to your borderless society ideal, it sounds great but is many generations away from being a feasible reality and human nature isn't changing fast enough to keep up with societal evolutions. Unintended consequences to that idea seem limitless. This is why libertarianism is best as a key (main) ingredient to a personalized political ethos than it is as a pure, concentrated ideology - it doesn't always take the worst of human nature into account. And I say that as someone who is more libertarian than any other ideology.

1). Very concise remarks. To your way of thinking what would you consider to be a dedicated solution? A tough solution that works isn’t much of a proposal. A wall? Do you think people on the other side of the wall will not be able to figure out a way to go over, under or around a wall? More border patrol? All it takes is for one small patrol office to be corrupt, suseptible to bribe, to thwart that concept. What other ideas have state agents offered? Do you not find it ironic that most of the proposals involve those agencies being given more access to force and violence, and much more importantly to them, considerably more money? Money they’ll take from us via taxes.

2). The term you used, “naturalized illegals” is interesting. So am I correct that you agree the illegals, all 11 million of them, could become American citizens under the conditions you propose? If so you are the first candidate to answer my questions. Suppose the illegals are made citizens under your conditions. Assume that encourages others to sneak into the country illegally, let’s say another 11 million over the next 20 years. Would they be granted the same deal, citizenship under your conditions? If not, why not? Is that too many? What if it was another 5 million? Or 2 million? Is there a number that you say no more? What would be that number, and how do you arrive at that number?

Or are you relying on your first point, a tough dedicated solution that works to keep the rest out. What makes you think ANY solution would be dedicated? It would have to be a compromise proposal between those that want full deportation and those that want easy citizenship so they could secure extra votes. How tough, how dedicated to success could that solution be? I think the only dedication would be increasing the scope of state power over social power at a huge monetary expense. A typical political compromise, meaning it would be s disaster that drove a further wedge between people.

As regards your last paragraph I would urge you to read Ludwig von Mises’ masterful work, Human Action. I assure you it takes the worst of human nature into account. It’s a tough slog through about 1000 pages, but it is a masterpiece of libertarian thought, arguably the most important and influential book of libertarian thought there is.

Sorry to have written so much. I give you and Medic the last words if you want them.

 

[MegaPoke]

1). Very concise remarks. To your way of thinking what would you consider to be a dedicated solution? A tough solution that works isn’t much of a proposal. A wall? Do you think people on the other side of the wall will not be able to figure out a way to go over, under or around a wall? More border patrol? All it takes is for one small patrol office to be corrupt, suseptible to bribe, to thwart that concept. What other ideas have state agents offered? Do you not find it ironic that most of the proposals involve those agencies being given more access to force and violence, and much more importantly to them, considerably more money? Money they’ll take from us via taxes.

Of course no dedicsted solution will be 100% effective, but by comparison to the state of border security we've enjoyed in recent decades, it really wouldn't take perfection to dramatically reduce the problem. Specifically? Walls work great in Israel and other places. Other than Roger Waters using it to promote Pink Floyd nostalgia concerts, I consider some kind of physical barrier an overdue asset in controlling and monitoring the border.

2). The term you used, “naturalized illegals” is interesting. So am I correct that you agree the illegals, all 11 million of them, could become American citizens under the conditions you propose? If so you are the first candidate to answer my questions. Suppose the illegals are made citizens under your conditions. Assume that encourages others to sneak into the country illegally, let’s say another 11 million over the next 20 years. Would they be granted the same deal, citizenship under your conditions? If not, why not? Is that too many? What if it was another 5 million? Or 2 million? Is there a number that you say no more? What would be that number, and how do you arrive at that number?

Who cares if it encourages others? Provided of course we've provided a dedicated solution to the flow of illegal aliens. Did the Oklahoma land rush encourage people to keep rushing in and staking claims after it was done? No. Eventually it was understood that there was a window of opportunity that has closed.

As regards your last paragraph I would urge you to read Ludwig von Mises’ masterful work, Human Action. I assure you it takes the worst of human nature into account. It’s a tough slog through about 1000 pages, but it is a masterpiece of libertarian thought, arguably the most important and influential book of libertarian thought there is.

That would be awesome but there's no way I'll ever read it. I work 60-70 hours a week, I never take vacations and I don't spend downtime reading stuff like that. This is about as deep as I'll likely get.

Sorry to have written so much. I give you and Medic the last words if you want them.

It's all good man.

 

[anon_xl72qcu5isp39]

Do I get a prize for holding onto my principles for this long in the face of almost total rejection?

Well, in the same way that a flat earther gets a prize for holding onto their principles over the course of a lifetime. I mean, is that a prize you want Dan?

I just read your OP and it struck me about halfway through that I agree with all that, it's just not practical in the real world -- to the point of embracing dungeons and dragons type of impractical. But I agree with a lot of what you say.

I think it is starkly, plainly, perfectly obvious to a reasonable American that immigration needs regulated and restricted to some extent. We can't have ISIS casually driving their WMD's up through Juarez, now can we? The issue frankly comes in the reaction of the "conservatives" to the issue. We might intellectually agree on some basic points at the beginning of the conversation, but by the time they're done venting their spleen, lying and dramatizing, ignoring data, demonstrating total absence of love for vulnerable (and frequently very good) humans, the "conservatives" have themselves demonstrated why imperfect humans should not be given too much power over each other. They make me react with, "We need to manage the immigration, but we can't leave a lot of these poor people exposed to the whims of Biff and his mob, either."

 

[MegaPoke]

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-did-somali-attacker-canada-reach-us-mexico-border-todd-bensman/

 

[imprimis]

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-did-somali-attacker-canada-reach-us-mexico-border-todd-bensman/

All the more reason Mexico should be held accountable politically and economically (paying for the Wall).

 

[windriverrange]

For Mexico, without the repatriated money from the US they would slide below Somalia on the quality of living scale. Since their successful revolution against France, in 1821, they have sucked at government policies, financial issues and general welfare of their own citizens. The Republic of Mexico was born bankrupt and incapable of self-government. During its first 15 years of independence, it had 13 presidents. A wall will definitely be needed when the shit hole finally goes down the tubes and the citizens look to go anywhere for relief...most of which will want to be in the US.

Know many people like to vacation there, but no way I would spend money there. Which is the same view I have about visiting blue states. Don't feed the beast if possible.