Hurricane Katrina

[windriverrange]

Watched a program regarding HK this morning, on NatGeo, and really was surprised at the level treatment most got on the event and response. Quit a few things I don't remember hearing or didn't know such as.....
- Bush wanted the LA National Guard troops to fall under federal control, if federal troops were sent. But the LA gov didn't want to federalize the NG because it would prevent them from performing "policing duties." Eventually they compromised and allowed the NG troops to do both.
- The media out and out lied about 100's of murders, gang rapes, assaults etc that were occurring in the superdome and the other primary refugee center (forgot the name).
- Mayor Nagin was very complementary of Bush at the start.
-the levees were designed to withstand a cat 4 hurricane but actually failed in a cat 1.
-much of the new levee system put in after Katrina, will have to be raised by 2025 due to their sinking where placed.
- at the end Bush fell on the sword and took full responsibility (rarely seen in political circles from either side)

Other things....the dems held hearing on the response, Nancy P and Patrick L with others were immediately on the tube crying about the incompetence at hand (continues to remind me of how duplicitous all those bums are both sides of the aisle).

Really interesting program...

 

[OKSTATE1]

Biggest problem you had was that for years those from that area were told the pumps and levees would hold.

My friend from Baton Rouge who is highly educated told me they would be fine with a direct hit, really naïve and brainwashed. Just prior to Katrina there was a 2 night special on one of the documentary channels explaining how bad it would be if any type of Hurricane directly hit New Orleans, the Scientist was from LSU. He said a Cat 4 might be the end of the city. It was very educational and proved to be 100% accurate. Told my friend what I learned on this documentary and he said it was all wrong.

I was scheduled to go to BR to see LSU play Tenn that year, it was LSU’s early season SEC game. I bet him $500 the New Orleans airport would not even be open to civilian air traffic when the Tenn game happened. I made this bet prior to Katrina hitting, and I won the bet. I did not collect because I did not want to win money on people suffering.

Many of the locals did not heed the warnings to LEAVE, they really thought they would be safe.

I remember asking my friend how those pumps would run after the electricity went out, and even if they had back ups how could the pumps stay running with all that debris being fed to them, he was insistent they would be fine.

So, I blame a good part of the problem of the years or decades of brainwashing the locals they were safe when anyone outside of NO with common sense could see it was going to be really bad. Parts of NO is below sea level, the scientist described almost like a cereal bowl.

If people had not been brainwashed and they all evacuated you would still had the physical damage but not near the human suffering after the fact.

The city was also slow mobilizing school buses, etc...to get people out. You can not beat Mother Nature, the problem with Katrina was set in stone before it ever hit. No one can be adequately prepared to deal with something that massive. People should not have been lied to, and people should have gotten the hell out of dodge when they were told to leave, hopefully people have learned. After the May tornado that hit years ago in Moore people take Tornado warnings much more serious now.

 

[Bitter Creek]

The city was also slow mobilizing school buses, etc...to get people out. You can not beat Mother Nature, the problem with Katrina was set in stone before it ever hit. No one can be adequately prepared to deal with something that massive. People should not have been lied to, and people should have gotten the hell out of dodge when they were told to leave, hopefully people have learned. After the May tornado that hit years ago in Moore people take Tornado warnings much more serious now.

I thought the deal with the buses was that the city failed to move them out of the lot that they normally sat in, which was a very low elevation and the bus lot itself flooded

 

[OKSTATE1]

I thought the deal with the buses was that the city failed to move them out of the lot that they normally sat in, which was a very low elevation and the bus lot itself flooded

They had enough warning to get them out of there and they should have been more proactive, but the locals were totally brainwashed,. which I believe included city government.

 

[Medic007]

They had enough warning to get them out of there and they should have been more proactive, but the locals were totally brainwashed,. which I believe included city government.

It had nothing to do with brainwashing. The evacuation plan called for buses to pick up people and take them to designated shelters about 2 hours north of the city. The city was slower than they should have been to mobilize (not uncommon) and by the time their plan was in action, the traffic leading north out of the region was too much to overcome.

Rather than risking having large amounts of people stranded in buses, they decided to try to move people to other locations. Because of the time involved in creating a new plan, they decided to shelter people in the Superdome and then move them out after the storm hit. Two problems with that plan. The Superdome became the shelter for anyone that could get there, resulting in massive overcrowding, and the buses they were going to use to move them after the storms were underwater.

The federal government, state government, and local government all contributed to the poor response. Keep in mind the Corp of Engineers built the shoddy levees and took responsibility for their failure. That was a prime example of what cutting corners gets as a result.

 

[OKSTATE1]

It had nothing to do with brainwashing. The evacuation plan called for buses to pick up people and take them to designated shelters about 2 hours north of the city. The city was slower than they should have been to mobilize (not uncommon) and by the time their plan was in action, the traffic leading north out of the region was too much to overcome.

Rather than risking having large amounts of people stranded in buses, they decided to try to move people to other locations. Because of the time involved in creating a new plan, they decided to shelter people in the Superdome and then move them out after the storm hit. Two problems with that plan. The Superdome became the shelter for anyone that could get there, resulting in massive overcrowding, and the buses they were going to use to move them after the storms were underwater.

The federal government, state government, and local government all contributed to the poor response. Keep in mind the Corp of Engineers built the shoddy levees and took responsibility for their failure. That was a prime example of what cutting corners gets as a result.

They were also telling people to get out before the bus plan was ever made a major evacuation plan.

 

[imprimis]

It was a clusterf--- all around.

Federal law also said the Governor had to request assistance before the federal gov't could respond. The Gov. wanted all the glory and was slow in asking. I recall something about the buses requiring a CDL and there weren't enough qualified drivers. When a catastrophe is imminent, damn the rules and get the buses moving.

 

[OKSTATE1]

It had nothing to do with brainwashing. The evacuation plan called for buses to pick up people and take them to designated shelters about 2 hours north of the city. The city was slower than they should have been to mobilize (not uncommon) and by the time their plan was in action, the traffic leading north out of the region was too much to overcome.

Rather than risking having large amounts of people stranded in buses, they decided to try to move people to other locations. Because of the time involved in creating a new plan, they decided to shelter people in the Superdome and then move them out after the storm hit. Two problems with that plan. The Superdome became the shelter for anyone that could get there, resulting in massive overcrowding, and the buses they were going to use to move them after the storms were underwater.

The federal government, state government, and local government all contributed to the poor response. Keep in mind the Corp of Engineers built the shoddy levees and took responsibility for their failure. That was a prime example of what cutting corners gets as a result.

They were brainwashed or desensitized to the risks over decades of messaging, one of the disc jockeys for a NO's radio station that had been with that station since the 80's talked about he and everyone he knew in NO's thought they were 100% safe because that was what "everyone said". This radio personality admitted afterwards how naive he was, the whole city. My friend who is highly educated, thought they would be safe, no matter the Hurricane and me providing scientific opinion to the contrary probably 10 to 14 days before Katrina hit.

If they wanted to listen, there was information out there (at least one documentary and an LSU scientist preaching doom) and common sense to tell you to get the hell out of dodge early and not last minute.

Yes, there was operational errors made, but there is no doubt the local population did not heed the warnings adequately. Do we know how much of that impacted operational readiness? No, but I have no doubt it had to of. My friend is a CPA and passed the CPA exam with a perfect score his first try, I could be wrong but I bet he is far smarter then Mayor Ray Nagin. The fact someone like him who lived in that area most of his whole life when confronted with scientific opinion and facts of the harm any type of Hurricane hitting NO would cause, and due to his "knowledge" of living in the area and what they have been told would tell me they were wrong and they would be fine speaks a bunch to the mentality in the area. The disc jockey's comments were very telling and self reflective.

Think about it, why would a city like New Orleans say anything but you are safe? They want to grow and prosper, why scare the hell out of everyone and keep businesses away and see everyone move away?

I really do not care what people think on this issue, but I am 110% convinced based on going to that area for over 30 years, talking to people at LSU tailgates after Katrina, talking to my friend, reading stories like the one on the disc jockey, they pretty much had a laissez faire attitude about any type of Hurricane hitting NO's being a complete disaster. IMO, that is plain dumb, dumbest thing I have ever heard out of my friend's mouth, I was shocked. I told him I hope everyone else in New Orleans is not thinking like you because if they are, this is going to be really bad.

 

[CSCOTTOSUPOKES]

They were brainwashed or desensitized to the risks over decades of messaging, one of the disc jockeys for a NO's radio station that had been with that station since the 80's talked about he and everyone he knew in NO's thought they were 100% safe because that was what "everyone said". This radio personality admitted afterwards how naive he was, the whole city. My friend who is highly educated, thought they would be safe, no matter the Hurricane and me providing scientific opinion to the contrary probably 10 to 14 days before Katrina hit.

If they wanted to listen, there was information out there (at least one documentary and an LSU scientist preaching doom) and common sense to tell you to get the hell out of dodge early and not last minute.

Yes, there was operational errors made, but there is no doubt the local population did not heed the warnings adequately. Do we know how much of that impacted operational readiness? No, but I have no doubt it had to of. My friend is a CPA and passed the CPA exam with a perfect score his first try, I could be wrong but I bet he is far smarter then Mayor Ray Nagin. The fact someone like him who lived in that area most of his whole life when confronted with scientific opinion and facts of the harm any type of Hurricane hitting NO would cause, and due to his "knowledge" of living in the area and what they have been told would tell me they were wrong and they would be fine speaks a bunch to the mentality in the area. The disc jockey's comments were very telling and self reflective.

Think about it, why would a city like New Orleans say anything but that? They want to grow and prosper, why scare the hell out of everyone and keep businesses away and see everyone move away?

I really do not care what people think on this issue, but I am 110% convinced based on going to that area for over 30 years, talking to people at LSU tailgates after Katrina, talking to my friend, reading stories like the one on the disc jockey, they pretty much had a laissez faire attitude about any type of Hurricane hitting NO's being a complete disaster. IMO, that is plain dumb, dumbest thing I have ever heard out of my friend's mouth, I was shocked. I told him I hope everyone else in New Orleans is not thinking like you because if they are, this is going to be really bad.

People choose to live in Oklahoma despite some of the most violent weather in the world.

 

[OKSTATE1]

People choose to live in Oklahoma despite some of the most violent weather in the world.

No shit sherlock. Your safe in momma's basement.

 

[Bitter Creek]

People choose to live in Oklahoma despite some of the most violent weather in the world.

It is kind of a side note, but as a life-long Oklahoman, I have had to answer the question about, "why would you live there" in reference to tornados several times.

It seems like when you grow up with a risk, it kind of just becomes part of daily life, at least to me.

 

[CSCOTTOSUPOKES]

No shit sherlock. Your safe in momma's basement.

So your response to my completely benign post is ad hominems lol...showing your true character on here, and it’s not looking good.

 

[OKSTATE1]

So your response to my completely benign post is ad hominems lol...showing your true character on here, and it’s not looking good.

Your benign post is captain obvious stupidity, a fact. Take your hurt feelers and go back to your safe room. You judging my character after wishing and hoping for the assassination of a sitting US President is pathetically sad, and you want to talk character? You add nothing to a conversation, nothing.

 

[SMemmett]

I like to pretend you guys are the same person because of your similar avatars.

 

[Medic007]

They were also telling people to get out before the bus plan was ever made a major evacuation plan.

There were people who couldn't afford to evacuate. They didn't have cars and no funds for emergent air/bus fares. Those are the people that depended on the city evacuation plans. Not everyone that didn't evacuate wanted to stay. 37 nursing homes weren't evacuated.

It's impossible to drill a disaster plan to the scale that Katrina was. You just can't practice evacuating 500,000 plus people. You drill within what's reasonable and hope it translates to something resembling Katrina. I guarantee no disaster plan is anything close to resembling fool proof. None of us that responded to the Murray Building bombing were prepared for that. Same with the May 3, 1999 tornado.

I get asked every year if we're prepared for a plane to fly into OU's stadium. My answer will always be the same, no. There's no way to prepare for that. Plane size, fuel load, how many planes, where they impact, etc are factors in preparing. I can't bring in the resources that would be required each game to be prepared for a commercial airliner with a full fuel load flying into the stadium. The costs would be unaffordable. I've planned for it though. It will be an enormous shit show with a terrible loss of life. If I were to survive it, I would start bringing in whatever resources are necessary.

I'm not bagging on your friend, but being super smart and educated doesn't equate to situational awareness. I see it every day.

 

[aix_xpert]

My issue with Katrina is less about the people being impacted by it. That happens. Just look at Houston last year. But I knew a guy who was contracted to do residential cleanup in NO, and he highlighted the number of people who just sat on their porch watching (and waiting) for the goverment to come clean up the mess and make them whole. They had zero interest or motivation to do anything to help themselves. This is counter to what you see in other areas where storms decimate an area.

 

[CSCOTTOSUPOKES]

I like to pretend you guys are the same person because of your similar avatars.

When I tangent off in 10-paragraph diatribes, this will make sense lol

 

[Medic007]

My issue with Katrina is less about the people being impacted by it. That happens. Just look at Houston last year. But I knew a guy who was contracted to do residential cleanup in NO, and he highlighted the number of people who just sat on their porch watching (and waiting) for the goverment to come clean up the mess and make them whole. They had zero interest or motivation to do anything to help themselves. This is counter to what you see in other areas where storms decimate an area.

Definitely not exclusive to New Orleans. You see that mindset everywhere. I've found it mostly comes from thoughts that it will never be as bad as predicted because it usually isn't.

But there were a bunch of people that had no resources to evacuate during Katrina. They didn't have much choice. Overcrowded shelters or just say eff it. I spent a total of about 8 weeks on and off in New Orleans post Katrina. It was probably the most physically and emotionally demanding work I've done in my 23 year career. I met a bunch of victims that had no choice but to stay and survive. Once it hit, many felt powerless to do anything. Everything was decimated.

 

[Bitter Creek]

My issue with Katrina is less about the people being impacted by it. That happens. Just look at Houston last year. But I knew a guy who was contracted to do residential cleanup in NO, and he highlighted the number of people who just sat on their porch watching (and waiting) for the goverment to come clean up the mess and make them whole. They had zero interest or motivation to do anything to help themselves. This is counter to what you see in other areas where storms decimate an area.

If you compare the responses of the people of Japan that suffered through the sudden disaster of the earthquake and tsunami and those of the people of NOLA after the hurricane, the difference is shockingly large.

 

[jkosu]

Amtrak keeps a spare set of equipment in New Orleans to protect the schedules of the three passenger trains that originate there. They decided to move it inland (north) to prevent it from being damaged and offered to the use of it to the city to move anyone who wanted to leave.

The city declined and it went north empty except for the crew and some employee family members.

 

[imprimis]

If you compare the responses of the people of Japan that suffered through the sudden disaster of the earthquake and tsunami and those of the people of NOLA after the hurricane, the difference is shockingly large.

There's a much different mindset between they two peoples.

 

[Bitter Creek]

There's a much different mindset between they two peoples.

Yes there is. In fact, they are different from most of the US in that they are still largely an honor society and we have developed into a guilt society.

 

[aix_xpert]

If you compare the responses of the people of Japan that suffered through the sudden disaster of the earthquake and tsunami and those of the people of NOLA after the hurricane, the difference is shockingly large.

i would note the difference between Houston recovering from 50" of rain last year and very equivalent flooding damage vs. NO residents recovering from Katrina as shockingly large.