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Head Coaching change-Is now the right time?

oberebo

Heisman Candidate
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Oct 30, 2005
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Shawnee,OK
I have long supported John Smith as Our head coach as long as he wants the job. I thought it was a no-brainer, after all he arguably the best wrestler in the sport and a great technician and also a real force in recruiting and drawing great wrestlers to Stillwater. I still respect him greatly for the aforementioned attributes but there has been a slow but obvious decline in the quality of our wrestlers.
We still recruit great wrestlers but those same wrestlers come to Stillwater and for the most part do not get any better. As a matter of fact, most regress.
I am trying to remember the last wrestler we recruited who has gotten better and I think it probably goes back to Daton. You could make an argument for Ferrari but I don't know if he got better or not. Obviously, his strength and speed were his greatest assets. Technically, he was never a great wrestler but used those assets to dominate his opponent. I never ever liked his attitude and obviously for many reasons regarding his personality he did not represent OSU well. His parting could not have come fast enough for me regardless of. his success on the mat.
I am straying away from my point. When John arrived and for several years he brought technique, great name and enthusiasm to Oklahoma State and for that he should be remembered as probably our greatest coach. We have a great recruiting class coming in but I do not see the same enthusiasm and ability to "jump levels" as Harley has said many times. Mastro is a good example of this. He has regressed from High School and his ability to get off bottom has frankly "bottomed out". His offense has also declined. This may be his "fault" but I believe much of the fault lies with the coaches.
It has been highly apparent to me and most of the posters on this board that the last two duals our wrestlers have not shown the enthusiasm and winning attitude of our opponents. Either we made OU look like, what it is not, or their coaches have instilled a winning attitude which combined with our lack of enthusiasm did, We lost every close or toss up match. we failed to major a out of shape and inferior wrestler at 157. We were humiliated at 125 and after a great performance in the Minnesota dual Young at 141 went back to his old ways. Young has great talent , maybe second only to Fix in that regard but somehow his coaches have not been able to consistently bring that talent out. Wyatt Sheets was better two years ago than he its now. Gfeller has been up and down for his whole career. Witlake was better 2-3 years ago than he is now.
This overlong narrative leads to an extremely difficult choice for me. This year can not be salvaged but I advocate retiring Coach Smith with high honors for his long and valued service and seek a new head coach for next year. I have not gotten far enough into this to have any idea who his replacement should be. We are not trending towards a championship now and with new coaches and hopefully a rejuvenated training center we will do so in the future. John Smith is a legend and he will remain so in most fan's eyes including mine.
 
We'll see how the season shakes out. We all know its going to be a long one. 2 dual losses isn't the end of the season. But it does feel like things are coming to a head. Booting the head coach isn't a wise move without a really, really solid plan in place to keep him involved in some way. Think about how many of our recruits and current team would leave if John were axed - especially mid-season. And with the addition of two new assistant coaches we may see some improvement over the season. I hope, at least. I do have to wonder how in touch Perry and Espo are. Perry was a pretty dull wrestler to watch, lots of tie ups and close matches, not really that exciting. It seems like his hire coincided with a change in our style. Espo was more exciting to watch. And Pat Smith of course was a legend alongside his brother... that was really a winning combination.
 
I have long supported John Smith as Our head coach as long as he wants the job. I thought it was a no-brainer, after all he arguably the best wrestler in the sport and a great technician and also a real force in recruiting and drawing great wrestlers to Stillwater. I still respect him greatly for the aforementioned attributes but there has been a slow but obvious decline in the quality of our wrestlers.
We still recruit great wrestlers but those same wrestlers come to Stillwater and for the most part do not get any better. As a matter of fact, most regress.
I am trying to remember the last wrestler we recruited who has gotten better and I think it probably goes back to Daton. You could make an argument for Ferrari but I don't know if he got better or not. Obviously, his strength and speed were his greatest assets. Technically, he was never a great wrestler but used those assets to dominate his opponent. I never ever liked his attitude and obviously for many reasons regarding his personality he did not represent OSU well. His parting could not have come fast enough for me regardless of. his success on the mat.
I am straying away from my point. When John arrived and for several years he brought technique, great name and enthusiasm to Oklahoma State and for that he should be remembered as probably our greatest coach. We have a great recruiting class coming in but I do not see the same enthusiasm and ability to "jump levels" as Harley has said many times. Mastro is a good example of this. He has regressed from High School and his ability to get off bottom has frankly "bottomed out". His offense has also declined. This may be his "fault" but I believe much of the fault lies with the coaches.
It has been highly apparent to me and most of the posters on this board that the last two duals our wrestlers have not shown the enthusiasm and winning attitude of our opponents. Either we made OU look like, what it is not, or their coaches have instilled a winning attitude which combined with our lack of enthusiasm did, We lost every close or toss up match. we failed to major a out of shape and inferior wrestler at 157. We were humiliated at 125 and after a great performance in the Minnesota dual Young at 141 went back to his old ways. Young has great talent , maybe second only to Fix in that regard but somehow his coaches have not been able to consistently bring that talent out. Wyatt Sheets was better two years ago than he its now. Gfeller has been up and down for his whole career. Witlake was better 2-3 years ago than he is now.
This overlong narrative leads to an extremely difficult choice for me. This year can not be salvaged but I advocate retiring Coach Smith with high honors for his long and valued service and seek a new head coach for next year. I have not gotten far enough into this to have any idea who his replacement should be. We are not trending towards a championship now and with new coaches and hopefully a rejuvenated training center we will do so in the future. John Smith is a legend and he will remain so in most fan's eyes including mine.
Really well said - I'm not sure how we got here, if it's a lack of energy in the building, or just the normal running down that happens over the course of a career. I do think it's a better idea to have a next step in mind before doing anything, but I'm not sure there's anyone in the building that sees where we're at as a major issue. As a fan, sure, but you think the AD is going to get moving over this?
 
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I totally support our staff. Every fan wants their team to be number one however only one team will achieve this honor. Penn State mainly because of money and somewhat because of location has a real advantage over us. That is why Sanderson left his Alma mater to go there. Last year was not a good season but we had several key injuries and AJ leaving. This season looks like a struggle but I still have hope of a good season. Even if we do not finish that good this year I will not jump ship on the coaching staff. John has been a great coach and is loyal to OSU and the state of Oklahoma and I am too.
 
I’m pretty sure it will have to be John’s decision and I hope it is and it is at a time he knows the program will be better for it and stubbornness and ego don’t get in the way.

I think if he sits back after this season and looks at the new and changing landscape of college wresting and what has occurred at and within our program the last few years he would make a decision to step down. I would love him to still be involved from a advisory and honorary role but the program needs new blood and a new direction or we will fall further behind.
 
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I’m pretty sure it will have to be John’s decision and I hope it is and it is at a time he knows the program will be better for it and stubbornness and ego don’t get in the way.

I think if he sits back after this season and looks at the new and changing landscape of college wresting and what has occurred at and within our program the last few years he would make a decision to step down. I would love him to still be involved from a advisory and honorary role but the program needs new blood and a new direction or we will fall further behind.
I'm sorry, but I just can't see how that happens. I mean, if you're willing to turn down a fully funded RTC because the donors want to be closely involved in the program, you think he's stepping down because we're underperforming?
 
I'm sorry, but I just can't see how that happens. I mean, if you're willing to turn down a fully funded RTC because the donors want to be closely involved in the program, you think he's stepping down because we're underperforming?
Please expound on this.
 
Does anyone have the ability to get a hold of Adam from the O'Colly? If so it would be great if fans could submit questions for him to ask John at the media availability and for him to choose a few to ask. It would be great for him to ask if someone has offered to donate to facility or RTC and other answers that we all want from John's mouth.
 
At the end of this season, John needs to get fully behind our RTC and articulate his vision on how we can win #35 in this new era of college wrestling. I can’t imagine he wouldn’t have the support of most of OSU wrestling fans if he simply did the above. If this doesn’t occur then I believe it’s time for a change. A hungry coach with a vision who understand the wrestling landscape in 2023.
 
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I totally support our staff. Every fan wants their team to be number one however only one team will achieve this honor. Penn State mainly because of money and somewhat because of location has a real advantage over us. That is why Sanderson left his Alma mater to go there. Last year was not a good season but we had several key injuries and AJ leaving. This season looks like a struggle but I still have hope of a good season. Even if we do not finish that good this year I will not jump ship on the coaching staff. John has been a great coach and is loyal to OSU and the state of Oklahoma and I am too.

But that's the problem. Okiest is looking up at ONE program. It's looking up at 13.

John refuses to address two things that would bring winning immediately

1. RTC
2. Lifestyle
3. Training phases
 
All roads to a new coach need to start and stop with 2 choices:

Casey Cunningham
David Taylor
Pat Pop
 
So...

This is a spreadsheet of how both OU and OSU have fared at the NCAA Tournament every since 2000. For reference, I listed OU first, then OSU. I did it for an OU board, so suck it. :)

Make out of it what you will. Obviously under coaching, it's only John for OSU.

Feel free to check on my numbers. If you see a mistake (not saying im infallable (although I am), let me know please.

Year........Place.................National Champions................Finalists..........All Americans......Coach
2000........4/5.......................1/0.....................................2/0..................3/3..............Spates
2001........4/3.......................1/1.....................................1/3..................5/6..............Spates
2002........3/5.......................0/1.....................................2/1..................6/4..............Spates
2003........3/1.......................2/2.....................................2/2..................3/7..............Spates
2004........9/1.......................1/0.....................................0/3..................4/6..............Spates
2005........3/1.......................1/5.....................................1/5..................4/7..............Spates
2006........3/1.......................0/2.....................................1/3..................5/6..............Spates
2007......22/5.......................0/0.....................................1/2..................1/4..............Spates
2008......39/5.......................0/1.....................................0/1..................0/4..............Spates
2009.....31/16.......................0/0.....................................0/0..................0/1..............Spates
2010........5/6.......................0/0.....................................0/1..................4/4..............Spates
2011......16/4.......................0/1.....................................1/2..................3/3..............Spates
2012......13/6.......................0/0.....................................0/1..................2/3.................Cody
2013......12/2.......................0/2.....................................1/2..................2/7.................Cody
2014......10/3.......................0/2.....................................1/4..................2/5.................Cody
2015......18/7.......................1/0.....................................1/0..................1/4.................Cody
2016......13/2.......................0/2.....................................0/2..................2/6.................Cody
2017......32/3.......................0/1.....................................0/1..................0/8..............Rosselli
2018....56/13.......................0/0.....................................0/0..................0/4..............Rosselli
2019......25/3.......................0/0.....................................0/2..................1/5..............Rosselli

2020.....Covid year No tournament

2021......24/3.......................0/1.....................................0/1..................1/7..............Rosselli
2022....29/14.......................0/0.....................................0/1..................0/2..............Rosselli
 
But that's the problem. Okiest is looking up at ONE program. It's looking up at 13.

John refuses to address two things that would bring winning immediately

1. RTC
2. Lifestyle
3. Training phases
4. transfer portal

When it was announced Stanford wrestling was going to be dropped, Shane Griffith, Jaden Abas and a few others entered the portal. They stated they would finish the 2021 year with Stanford and only transfer for the following season if the fight to save the program failed. Teams still went after them though. HC Jason Borrelli said John was the only coach to tell him to keep all his guys together and keep fighting to reinstate the program.

This is another example where John thinks about the sport first. And I think many would agree it's admirable. But when a program isn't in jeopardy we need to look at transfers as an option. Sometimes people need a change. Could be for any number of reasons.
 
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Smith = Iba. Both legends and both either unwilling or unable to adjust to the times. We kept Iba around until he drove the program down into a fairly average program. Sadly we are going to keep Smith around until he does the same with wrestling.

I'm going to get saying this and try to speak it into existence. JS resigns and starts the OSU women's wrestling program. Either Pat P or DC are named the next HC of the men's program. I think there are actually a ton of great replacements out there to choose from.
 
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Smith = Iba. Both legends and both either unwilling or unable to adjust to the times. We kept Iba around until he drove the program down into a fairly average program. Sadly we are going to keep Smith around until he does the same with wrestling.

I'm going to get saying this and try to speak it into existence. JS resigns and starts the OSU women's wrestling program. Either Pat P or DC are named the next HC of the men's program. I think there are actually a ton of great replacements out there to choose from.
What changes did Iba not get on board with?
 
Iba refused to recruit. He thought you should come and almost try out to get on the team. Plus refused to play modern offense.
 
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Legends always wear out their welcome. John wore his out about 10 years ago. OSU does not know how to maintain a program that has previously reached the pinnacle of a sport for decades. Let’s not hurt feelers and slowly bleed out and die.

Holder had no problem making changes with the golf program. No one cares about wrestling competing at the highest level anymore within the administration.
 
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Jim Zalesky was fired at Iowa after winning 3 National Titles. We haven't won one in almost 20 years. I'm sorry but 5 National Titles in 33 years when 4 of them came in one stretch isn't that great for the best program in wrestling history.

Pat Pop, Pendleton, Coleman, Cormier..............or the dream which is David Taylor or Jordan Burroughs are all better option than Coach Smith in 2023. Might be hard to hear but it is the truth.
 
Sadly our administration is not really engaged in the program and if they hire someone new they would have to get serious along with improved funding.
 
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At this point it appears my statement is more true than your statement based on what we all see happening.
 
Without John Smith as Head Coach, Oklahoma State will get worse NOT Better.
Good Luck with trying to find someone more Knowledgeable on all facets of Wrestling Than John Smith. I hope he stays as long as he wants, he is NOT easily replaced.
So we need to get use to finishing 5-20th on average? I don't agree. There are coaches out there who would gladly come to OSU. I think there are a number of D1 coaches who have done more with less.

Doug Schwab (don't want him),Pop,Coleman, and the guy at Iowa State could all do as well as John Smith at OSU right now. The next coach has to have experience with RTC and be open to the obvious.
 
Without John Smith as Head Coach, Oklahoma State will get worse NOT Better.
Good Luck with trying to find someone more Knowledgeable on all facets of Wrestling Than John Smith. I hope he stays as long as he wants, he is NOT easily replaced.
This is not true. You think If Sanderson was our Coach we would win another title ? I promise you if we had Sanderson we would have multiple titles since our last one in 2006 !
 
This is not true. You think If Sanderson was our Coach we would win another title ? I promise you if we had Sanderson we would have multiple titles since our last one in 2006 !
Maybe we can get Dan Gable.
 
I can say with 100% confidence that the athletic director cares deeply for wrestling. He is doing a lot to get the program on the right track. It will come out in due time.
I hope you are right.I just hope it is not too late bc we have lots of catching up to do.
 
I can say with 100% confidence that the athletic director cares deeply for wrestling. He is doing a lot to get the program on the right track. It will come out in due time.
Literally any specific detail would go a long ways towards convincing people. Is there a funding increase coming? Additional staff for 2024-25 season? Wooing of donors? Social media overhaul? Plans to have mailings go out before the season? Offers made to senior OSU athletes to come back and train in Stilly, has anybody on staff even spoken to Alex Dieringer? Etc.
 
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Without John Smith as Head Coach, Oklahoma State will get worse NOT Better.
Good Luck with trying to find someone more Knowledgeable on all facets of Wrestling Than John Smith. I hope he stays as long as he wants, he is NOT easily replaced.
I don’t buy this because it’s either saying that John is the best coach out of all humanity, or it’s saying that OSU wrestling is so particular that only one man is equipped to lead them.

If he pulls us into a top finish with several AA and/or NC this year I’ll be a believer again in GOAT level. He’s obviously a great coach still. A lot of programs would kill for top 20 finishes. We’re just so used to GOAT level that it’s an expectation.
 
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