Guilty or not....you’re going broke pal

[windriverrange]

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/25/trumps-allies-are-drowning-in-legal-fees-from-the-russia-probes.html

this is so troubling to me that people who may or may not have committed criminal offenses are absolutely run to the poor house by simply defending themselves. What are you options really? Fall on the sword and plead guilty to shit you didn’t do (assuming your innocent) or keep fighting even though clearing your name will break you?

JD what’s your thoughts on this man?

 

[CSCOTTOSUPOKES]

Don’t start nothin’ won’t be nothin’

 

[07pilt]

Imagine dealing with this system as a poor person, or merely a middle class person. It would ruin you.

 

[windriverrange]

Pilt, I rarely agree with you but that is one of your most salient points ever sir! Thanks for the input.

I think many of even these upper class people will be/have been ruined. Just can’t believe this is how the judicial system was designed to work.

 

[07pilt]

Pilt, I rarely agree with you but that is one of your most salient points ever sir! Thanks for the input.

I think many of even these upper class people will be/have been ruined. Just can’t believe this is how the judicial system was designed to work.

If you tried to fix it you would be "soft on crime"

 

[OKSTATE1]

It is why many people turn government witness, and who knows how many of those government witnesses are truthful.

 

[poke2001]

Don’t start nothin’ won’t be nothin’

What was your opinion of the Michael Brown case?

 

[CSCOTTOSUPOKES]

What was your opinion of the Michael Brown case?

I didn’t pay attention to Ferguson much (was in Washington during that time), but the facts and investigations cleared the cop. Brown was fighting for the gun, not a smart move.

 

[JohnVoight]

I watched an excellent Frontline documentary some months ago titled "Abacus: Small Enough to Jail". About a community bank in NYC that caters to Chinese-Americans.

One of the ending lines was, "The fact that they find [sic] innocent give all of us hope that the America that we believe in still─ you still have a chance. But it will cost you $10 million."

It REALLY frightened me.

 

[windriverrange]

JohnVoight and what really even scarier is the government has an infinitely larger pool of money to keep going....okay limitless pool of money. Who can possibly keep up with that?

 

[CowboyJD]

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/25/trumps-allies-are-drowning-in-legal-fees-from-the-russia-probes.html

this is so troubling to me that people who may or may not have committed criminal offenses are absolutely run to the poor house by simply defending themselves. What are you options really? Fall on the sword and plead guilty to shit you didn’t do (assuming your innocent) or keep fighting even though clearing your name will break you?

JD what’s your thoughts on this man?

It’s a troubling aspect of our criminal justice system that defendants get the justice they can afford.

I don’t have a lot of answers to that problem. It’s been that way, but worse...forever.

 

[windriverrange]

JD if you could wave the magical wand, how would you solve it? Matching govt funds after a certain % of your income has been reached? Automatic reimbursement for non-guilty findings?

IDK it just seems that this is a built in mechanism to get defendants so down, they have no other choice but to roll over or plead guilty to lesser charges so as not to end up living in a PODS box later.

Tertiarily eminent domain kind of has the same feel in that there is no way a prolonged court battle could be advantageous to anyone except someone/entity that has a huge pool of free money.

 

[CowboyJD]

JD if you could wave the magical wand, how would you solve it? Matching govt funds after a certain % of your income has been reached? Automatic reimbursement for non-guilty findings?

IDK it just seems that this is a built in mechanism to get defendants so down, they have no other choice but to roll over or plead guilty to lesser charges so as not to end up living in a PODS box later.

Tertiarily eminent domain kind of has the same feel in that there is no way a prolonged court battle could be advantageous to anyone except someone/entity that has a huge pool of free money.

This is truly one where I don’t have any answers...magic wand ones or others.

Eminent domain is a little different in most situations because if the property owner being closed on wins the valuation trial, they are entitled to attorney fees too.

 

[CowboyJD]

And for the record, how often do we see anyone professing openly to not having an answer or a solution at all for...well...anything?

This is a conundrum that has plagued me from the beginning. When I was in criminal defense, I tried to address it with providing some pro bono work. On this side, I have tried to address it by making sure my guys were on the right side of the Constitution and played by “the rules”.

The same thing is probably true for lots of other areas. It’s the golden rule...he who has the gold, makes the rules.

 

[windriverrange]

Hear ya JD....I’ve got no issue saying don’t have a solution either, especially about this.

Have a good friend in Houston that is a defense attorney now after working in Harris County, TX prosecutors office for awhile. Not long ago she told me she had to call one of her clients (previously convicted felon) and tell him to shut his FB account down because he was on probation and didn’t need to be posting pictures of himself smoking Panama Red. I was dumbfounded.

 

[anon_xl72qcu5isp39]

the government has a....limitless pool of money. Who can possibly keep up with that?

O.J.?

 

[windriverrange]

Sys have you watched the new twist on “The First 48,” with Marcia Clark? I’ve tried but it’s borderline unbearable.

 

[squeak]

And for the record, how often do we see anyone professing openly to not having an answer or a solution at all for...well...anything?

This is a conundrum that has plagued me from the beginning. When I was in criminal defense, I tried to address it with providing some pro bono work. On this side, I have tried to address it by making sure my guys were on the right side of the Constitution and played by “the rules”.

The same thing is probably true for lots of other areas. It’s the golden rule...he who has the gold, makes the rules.

As a regulator, I had to be the person in the room who came to the right answer. I had to be the objective person. I could not try to win the argument, that wasn’t my role. I wish I could say we were all like that.

 

[anon_xl72qcu5isp39]

Sys have you watched the new twist on “The First 48,” with Marcia Clark? I’ve tried but it’s borderline unbearable.

No, I was sick of it all 25 years ago.

 

[Rdcldad]

The same thing is probably true for lots of other areas. It’s the golden rule...he who has the gold, makes the rules.

good rule

 

[CowboyJD]

As a regulator, I had to be the person in the room who came to the right answer. I had to be the objective person. I could not try to win the argument, that wasn’t my role. I wish I could say we were all like that.

Lawyers have an ethical duty to advocate on behalf of their client. It’s the jury that has the responsibility for coming to the right answer in a criminal prosecution.

I don’t even see this as a regulatory issue...people with money can hired more and better advocacy than those without. It is what it is.

 

[osuengineer]

Under Miranda rights, you have the right to a government-provided legal representation, right? But that only extends for criminal cases, right?

For civil cases (e.g., being sued or eminent domain), you have no rights to government-provided defense.

Am I on the right track?

 

[CowboyJD]

Under Miranda rights, you have the right to a government-provided legal representation, right? But that only extends for criminal cases, right?

For civil cases (e.g., being sued or eminent domain), you have no rights to government-provided defense.

Am I on the right track?

Yep.

 

[osuengineer]

In civil cases, is it common for the loser to have to pay legal fees of the winner? Is there typically a cap on the fees, if so?

 

[CowboyJD]

In civil cases, is it common for the loser to have to pay legal fees of the winner? Is there typically a cap on the fees, if so?

It depends upon the type of civil case and the particular state law regarding those cases, but

For contract cases and eminent domain, the loser is typically responsible for the attorney fees of the winner...there isn’t a cap per se but it is subject to a reasonableness evaluation by the court.

 

[osuengineer]

Thank you for continuing my education—
So if I don’t want to give up my house due to eminent domain, and get sued to give it up, lose that suit and therefore my house, I would also be subject to paying legal fees for those took my house?

If so, what a world we live in.

 

[CowboyJD]

Thank you for continuing my education—
So if I don’t want to give up my house due to eminent domain, and get sued to give it up, lose that suit and therefore my house, I would also be subject to paying legal fees for those took my house?

If so, what a world we live in.

That’s not the way eminent domain suits work. When you get used to give up your home under eminent domain, the government states the believe fair value for your home that they are willing to pay. You respond in the lawsuit with what you believe the fair market value is (even if you don’t believe they meet the requirements for taking it at all), then there is a process of evaluation by a third party evaluator. If you don’t agree to that independent evaluation, there is a trial on the value. If the trial results in a finding that you are due more than that evaluation, you get your attorney fees. If the trial results in a finding that you are due less than the evaluation, you get the evaluation, but have to pay attorney fees for the trial. Under the Kelo decision, the government has near carte blanche to determine whether the public purpose for which they are taking it is appropriate.

Under the federal takings clause, you typically don’t get to tell the government they’re not taking your house and litigate that...they can take it and the only determination is what the fair value of the property taken is. State laws and constitutions can be more restrictive on takings by the state than the federal constitution and often are.

Caveat: this is all my “general understanding” of eminent domain law in Oklahoma and federally rather than an explicit assertion of the exact law. I haven’t really been involved in these types of matters professionally.

 

[squeak]

Lawyers have an ethical duty to advocate on behalf of their client. It’s the jury that has the responsibility for coming to the right answer in a criminal prosecution.

I don’t even see this as a regulatory issue...people with money can hired more and better advocacy than those without. It is what it is.

I was just saying that it would be great if people on the government’s side tried to get to the right answer instead of trying to win an argument.

 

[HanAholeSolo2.0]

 

[imprimis]

Hear ya JD....I’ve got no issue saying don’t have a solution either, especially about this.

Have a good friend in Houston that is a defense attorney now after working in Harris County, TX prosecutors office for awhile. Not long ago she told me she had to call one of her clients (previously convicted felon) and tell him to shut his FB account down because he was on probation and didn’t need to be posting pictures of himself smoking Panama Red. I was dumbfounded.

As several in law enforcement have said, "they only catch the stupid/dumb ones". I saw that when I served on the Grand Jury. It became obvious shortly after being sworn in that most of those coming before us were there due to doing stupid stuff.

 

[CBradSmith]

Under the federal takings clause, you typically don’t get to tell the government they’re not taking your house and litigate that...they can take it and the only determination is what the fair value of the property taken is. State laws and constitutions can be more restrictive on takings by the state than the federal constitution and often are.

This is the key point for parsing, in my opinion, when thinking about eminent domain.

The property owner is practically never fighting to keep the property, they're fighting over the compensation being offered.

 

[DrunkenViking]

Just sharing

 

[DrunkenViking]

I agree with the below


This whole thing has become a scare tactic to prevent any future individuals to consider helping someone like Trump. How many people have they gone after and swamped under legal fees just because they were part of the campaign?

It really has become like the days of the secret police where they can bring you in and ruin you for no reason other than they can. Can’t think for he guys name who was on Tucker last nite and worked on the Trump campaign who is facing $120K + In legal fees and he isn’t even being accused of anything.

He stated that someone would have to be nuts to work on a Republican campaign considering what the libs will do if god forbid they lose that election, to try and ruin the people that worked on it. Sessions needs to get control of his damn justice dept IMO

 

[JimmyBob]

Sessions needs to get control of his damn justice dept IMO

That worthless POS couldn't put a leash on a dog.

 

[HanAholeSolo2.0]

That worthless POS couldn't put a leash on a dog.

your opinion of him may change this summer.

While trump and meuller take up all the oxygen in the room there is a lot of investigating and case building going on, and sessions is heavily involved.

 

[07pilt]

25,000 sealed indictments.

 

[Rdcldad]

case building

 

[JimmyBob]

your opinion of him may change this summer.

While trump and meuller take up all the oxygen in the room there is a lot of investigating and case building going on, and sessions is heavily involved.

Hope you're right.

 

[imprimis]

your opinion of him may change this summer.

While trump and meuller take up all the oxygen in the room there is a lot of investigating and case building going on, and sessions is heavily involved.

I've heard similar for other venues. I suppose we'll see. Seems like everyone and everything is waiting on the full IG report.

Here is a link to a thread on TexAgs -- I know, I feel dirty to mention them. It's very long -- 300+ pages. The person who originally posted it on another site said its best parts begin on page 300. It has some information that I haven't seen before. I don't vouch for its validity.

https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/2912732/1

 

[Rdcldad]

dems are fighting petty pussy wars

trumps playing for keeps
and gonna roll them up in a tsunami
of hardball with teeth