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GoT: The Tower of Joy Scene...

The Duke

The Duke

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Thoughts?

Dissapointed it was 5v2 instead of 7v3, wish they could have added a bit more background but the scene was fine I guess. Not surprised they ended it before entering the tower.

Wish young Ned had shown a bit more sadness, a reluctance to fight such honorable Knights.
 
Having not read the books (yet), I had to bother my wife with questions during that scene. She couldn't remember (or didn't know) who was in the tower..does anyone know?
 
The Duke said:
Thoughts?

Dissapointed it was 5v2 instead of 7v3, wish they could have added a bit more background but the scene was fine I guess. Not surprised they ended it before entering the tower.

Wish young Ned had shown a bit more sadness, a reluctance to fight such honorable Knights.
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It was actually 6 v 2 in HBO's world. I agree about the lack of background. If I had not read the books, I think I would have been totally confused by the conversation between Ned and Dayne at the beginning. I, also, don't think it was clear at all that the 2 guys defending the tower were both members of The Kingsguard. All of these issues could have been easily fixed with Bran saying, "My father told me this story...." and explaining who those two guys were and what had just happened "on the Trident" a few days prior.

I thought it was interesting that Reed saved Ned by attacking Dayne from behind. In the books, GRRM mentions that Reed saved Ned's life in that battle, but doesn't describe how he did it. Reed is described as a guy who is not a great warrior, so I think HBO's depiction of what happened makes sense. But, I always assumed that he had save Ned's life by doing something brave and clever. It never occurred to me that he might have performed a sneak attack from behind.
 
The Crannogmen were always described as less than honorable fighters in the books. Guerrilla tactics, poison darts, nets...

Ned isn't an elite sword in the books either.

Makes sense.
 
TheRedSon said:
The Crannogmen were always described as less than honorable fighters in the books. Guerrilla tactics, poison darts, nets...

Ned isn't an elite sword in the books either.

Makes sense.
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Totally makes sense. I just think that GRRM went out of his way to point out what a high opinion Ed had of HR. HBO made him look bad, IMO. He could have saved Ed's life via some type of distraction that gave Ed a window of opportunity. But, maybe GRRM always meant for the actual events to happen the way HBO showed it... We may never know how it happened in GRRM's world, though.

I would say that GRRM has laid more groundwork to make HR turn out to be a key figure in the last 2 books. Depending on what is found in the Tower of Joy, HBO could let Reed die of his wounds and it would work just fine.
 
I thought the actual scene as depicted was pretty cool. I know it wasn't book accurate in terms of numbers, but I'm not sure what adding another fighter on each side really would have added. Like Jammin, I wish there had been a little extra exposition by Bran to set the scene. It totally made sense to me that Stark would have been about to lose and was saved in the way he was. More than anything, it showed me how naive even a Stark child could still be about the niceties of battle when fighting for one's life. I love these little looks into important scenes by Bran. That we haven't seen many adds a little mystery and supernatural vibe.

On the other hand, I thought the scene was a major cock tease. I'm actually really surprised they don't show the trek up into the Tower. After bringing Jon back last episode and not stretching that wait out over long, plus the fact that yesterday was Mother's Day, I really thought we were finally going to confirm R+L=J.
 
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I thought it was great just to see Arthur Dane in action.
 
Also, why did the Bloodraven say he had been in the trees for 1,000 years. Is he not the Bloodraven on the show?
 
Part of the synopsis for episode 5 is "Bran learns a great deal." So I'd assume that is when he actually goes in the tower.
 
The scene was exactly what I expected including cutting away before they went into the tower. It like candy we only get a little at a time. We don't get the answer of Jon until much later. The end of the season at best. Remember the Arthur Dane is renowned as the greatest swordsman of all time so there was no way young Ned Stark could have beaten him one on one. GRRM doesn't place a lot of stock in the honor of war. In interviews he's discussed his desire to paint a much more complicated picture then your traditional fantasy novel. It's not good vs evil. It's the complication of life. He's gone out of his way to show how war effects the little people who gain little or nothing by it and also to show in the conflicting moralities the characters face. Just as Jamie broke his oath and killed the mad king for the greater good Ned and Reed were going to kill Dayne any way they could. Be it four against one or just stabbing him in the back. That's war. Ned loved his sister and no one was going to stop him from getting to her. Bran has simply never seen the realities of war. He views his father as this larger then life figure who obviously could have defeated any man. Part of his education is to understand the realities of life.
 
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Air_Thurman said:
Also, why did the Bloodraven say he had been in the trees for 1,000 years. Is he not the Bloodraven on the show?
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I don't think he needs to be Bloodraven in the show. They haven't called him that at any point (at least I don't think so). And, to tell the story of who Bloodraven was, and how there were different factions of Targs fighting for control of the Iron Throne would seem like a waste of time at this point. It would take time away from the other characters and seem completely tangential.
 
A thousand years would make this "Bloodraven" predate the Targaryen Dynasty in Westeros completely though wouldn't it?
 
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Been Jammin said:
Totally makes sense. I just think that GRRM went out of his way to point out what a high opinion Ed had of HR. HBO made him look bad, IMO. He could have saved Ed's life via some type of distraction that gave Ed a window of opportunity. But, maybe GRRM always meant for the actual events to happen the way HBO showed it... We may never know how it happened in GRRM's world, though.
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I see what you're saying here, especially considering how straight laced and prickly Ned's sense of honor has been portrayed. That said, Ned has known Howland since they were teens, and they have been friends the whole time. I don't think that Ned and a young Jaime Lannister or Loras Tyrell would describe "honor" in the same way either. Ned cares nothing for their "play fighting" in tournaments for instance. When Ned draws iron he intends for someone to die. He also does not go back to finish his knighthood training after the war. He is shown to respect the fighting ability of the Crannogmen, at the very least, when he discusses strategy with Cat. He knows they can hold the entire South at the Neck and believes this to be a good thing rather than detestable (knowing how the southerners would die).

I think Ned's sense of honor pertains to family, loyalty, duty, his religion, oaths he's taken... When it comes to actual combat I believe he is quite the pragmatist though.

I have not seen any of this season yet. Who is the other Kingsguard with Dayne?
 
Been Jammin said:
I don't think he needs to be Bloodraven in the show. They haven't called him that at any point (at least I don't think so). And, to tell the story of who Bloodraven was, and how there were different factions of Targs fighting for control of the Iron Throne would seem like a waste of time at this point. It would take time away from the other characters and seem completely tangential.
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They've gone out of their way to make sure readers know it's blood Raven though. 3 eyed crow, his one and a thousand eyes quote, he's still wearing the black of the nights watch. They aren't bothering to inform the TV only watchers, but it seems like they want book readers to know it's him.
 
TheRedSon said:
I see what you're saying here, especially considering how straight laced and prickly Ned's sense of honor has been portrayed. That said, Ned has known Howland since they were teens, and they have been friends the whole time. I don't think that Ned and a young Jaime Lannister or Loras Tyrell would describe "honor" in the same way either. Ned cares nothing for their "play fighting" in tournaments for instance. When Ned draws iron he intends for someone to die. He also does not go back to finish his knighthood training after the war. He is shown to respect the fighting ability of the Crannogmen, at the very least, when he discusses strategy with Cat. He knows they can hold the entire South at the Neck and believes this to be a good thing rather than detestable (knowing how the southerners would die).

I think Ned's sense of honor pertains to family, loyalty, duty, his religion, oaths he's taken... When it comes to actual combat I believe he is quite the pragmatist though.

I have not seen any of this season yet. Who is the other Kingsguard with Dayne?
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They don't name the other KG. In the book, it was Sir Gerold Hightower, who was Lord Commander of the KG at the time, and on the old side. He was actually the one who had the conversation with Ned, with Dayne interjecting a few comments. The 3rd was Sir Oswell Whent. Since Dayne did all of the talking in HBO's version, I guess we can assume the other KG was Whent, but it really doesn't matter.

You said, "He is shown to respect the fighting ability of the Crannogmen", and I'm glad you did. I do remember Ned saying/thinking that exact thing. I think that point, along with GRRM telling us that Reed saved Ned's life at the TOJ, had me assuming that Reed used his spear or net to fight against Dayne, and the unconventional fighting style threw off a great swordsman, like Dayne, allowing Reed and Ned to be the only 2 who survived the battle. I am curious if HBO showed us something that GRRM told them happened at the TOJ, or if that was just their interpretation of what happened.
 
Cowpoke said:
They've gone out of their way to make sure readers know it's blood Raven though. 3 eyed crow, his one and a thousand eyes quote, he's still wearing the black of the nights watch. They aren't bothering to inform the TV only watchers, but it seems like they want book readers to know it's him.
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Good point.
 
I thought the fight scene was one of the better ones the show has done.
 
Sooo Bran can affect the past......
I mean he only made Ned turn around, but it's still affecting it.
 
mseabolt said:
I wondered this as well .. How much could change?
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Yeah, they put that in there for a reason. I'm more of a fan of the non-fantasy stuff in GOT so I don't love the thought of time travel effecting the story.
 
Cowpoke said:
Sooo Bran can affect the past......
I mean he only made Ned turn around, but it's still affecting it.
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This happened in the books also. There was a scene where a young version of Ned was sitting at the hot springs, in the Winterfell Garden area. He was crying and talking to himself (I think about bringing baby Jon back with him). Bran said "father" and Ned seemed to hear it and looked up.
 
I had a good time travel question but every time I wrote it I couldn't get it to make sense, my head started hurting thinking about it. Basically who's to say that he hasn't already done this before and his interfering hasn't already effected the out come. Basically my thought was maybe he's in a time travel loop. Maybe the bloodraven/old man in the tree is trying to stop him from doing it because he too tried it before a failed miserably. Maybe it has been a 1000 years to live 100 years. No clue if any of this post makes sense :)
 
Inky29 said:
I had a good time travel question but every time I wrote it I couldn't get it to make sense, my head started hurting thinking about it. Basically who's to say that he hasn't already done this before and his interfering hasn't already effected the out come. Basically my thought was maybe he's in a time travel loop. Maybe the bloodraven/old man in the tree is trying to stop him from doing it because he too tried it before a failed miserably. Maybe it has been a 1000 years to live 100 years. No clue if any of this post makes sense :)
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I can see what you are saying.

However, I think it is unlikely. If your idea was accurate (or close to it), the story would make a quick jump from a fantasy/political story to a science fiction story about how changing the past has ramifications beyond what was intended at the time of the change. Plenty of those stories have been done in the past, and I think it would take away from what GRRM and HBO has created already.

While I think it is possible for Bran to be heard in the past, I suspect that it will never amount to much of an impact on what the characters do. My guess is that people can hear him if he tries to make himself heard, but what they hear is faint and confusing. Was it a voice? A bird? The wind? Something in the distance? A ghost? Maybe it will allow him to make someone notice a threat before it is too late. But I don't think it will allow for any huge changes to the story. In other words, I don't think we are going to see Bran tell Robb that the Red Wedding is a trap, etc.
 
That would definitely change the feel of the show but I really think over the final few episodes the fantasy/spiritual is going to be kicked up a notch. It's always been there we just haven't seen it too much until recently (Jon coming back from the dead, actually seeing the WW's raise up dead bodies, Melisandre birthing a spirit baby). It's always present but doesn't seem to be a deciding factor in who lives or dies (except for Jon coming back).

I'd be shocked if that scene didnt play a role otherwise why mention it and for a kid like Bran that has been sans family for a long long time I would think the thought of being able to talk to them again wouldn't be something he'd just give up on now that he knows its possible. Personally if I could somehow find a way to talk with my Grandparents one more time I'd sure heck try. The way the old man in the Tree was so quick to try to steer him away from it makes me think he knows its possible but also futile.
 
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The thing about time travel is you can basically do anything and everything that has happened is kind of pointless. That would suck.
 
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Air_Thurman said:
The thing about time travel is you can basically do anything and everything that has happened is kind of pointless. That would suck.
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I agree. It totally negates everything that has already happened. That is why I think Bran will only be able to have a very minor influence on past events if he is able to have any influence at all.
 
Been Jammin said:
I agree. It totally negates everything that has already happened. That is why I think Bran will only be able to have a very minor influence on past events if he is able to have any influence at all.
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It's not really time travel as in the wheels off "Lost" thing. He an observer at best. They may sense his presence but I don't see it as a major player. The "Warg" role is more likely how he will influence events but only in the future.
 
Bran has become an "old god."

I don't think he can change time so much as he now, to an extent at least, exists outside of time.
 
TheRedSon said:
Bran has become an "old god."

I don't think he can change time so much as he now, to an extent at least, exists outside of time.
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You all seem to be forgetting that Bran's mission from the time he was injured became in the words of the 3 eyed crow "to save the world". He is being set up to do something far more important than simply exist as whispers in the wind. Jojen seems to know this as well.

And on the Jojen note, did anyone pick up the answer when Bran asked who the other guy was with his father at the TOJ? "That's MEERA'S father", the TEC answered. Not "Jojen and Meera's father". This is not an oversight.

I think Howland Reed also leaves the TOJ with a baby under his arm.

Where it all goes, who knows.
 
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Yah we got to that point on one of the other threads .... lots of threads lol
 
Jojen is too young to be John Snow's twin. TEC left out Jojen because Jojen is dead (soon). Jojen has already seen his own death, and it is imminent I think.

As to saving the world... That's what he's been told. I'm not sure I trust Bloodraven/Three Eyed Crow though. Regardless, he can be much more than "whispers in the wind." He is also a warg still, and from where he sits he can see anything a weirwood tree with a face can see... Any when even. He is quite powerful. I do think someone will have to have a little faith for him to truly influence the world though.
 
Maybe you inherit all the memories of the three eyed crow if you accept the mantle. The old man would transfer knowledge/power to Bran for example, just as whoever he took the place of did to him.

Ergo, one might have a thousand years of knowledge even though multiple individuals accrued it.
 
Air_Thurman said:
Yeah, they put that in there for a reason. I'm more of a fan of the non-fantasy stuff in GOT so I don't love the thought of time travel effecting the story.
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Those dragons must burn you up then! !


I keed. I keed.
 
TheRedSon said:
Jojen is too young to be John Snow's twin. TEC left out Jojen because Jojen is dead (soon). Jojen has already seen his own death, and it is imminent I think.

As to saving the world... That's what he's been told. I'm not sure I trust Bloodraven/Three Eyed Crow though. Regardless, he can be much more than "whispers in the wind." He is also a warg still, and from where he sits he can see anything a weirwood tree with a face can see... Any when even. He is quite powerful. I do think someone will have to have a little faith for him to truly influence the world though.
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Didn't Jojen already die in HBO's version?

Also, I think you are right as far as the books go. Bran will develop the ability to see anywhere and anywhen by looking through the face of a Weirwood tree that currently exists or existed in the past. However, I don't think the Weirwood trees are part of the equation per HBO. The Tower of Joy is in Dorne (I think) and there are no Weirwoods that far south. HBO had to show us TOJ via Bran because they can't let us see inside the head of Ned Stark and they didn't have him tell the story prior to killing him off.
 
Been Jammin said:
Didn't Jojen already die in HBO's version?

Also, I think you are right as far as the books go. Bran will develop the ability to see anywhere and anywhen by looking through the face of a Weirwood tree that currently exists or existed in the past. However, I don't think the Weirwood trees are part of the equation per HBO. The Tower of Joy is in Dorne (I think) and there are no Weirwoods that far south. HBO had to show us TOJ via Bran because they can't let us see inside the head of Ned Stark and they didn't have him tell the story prior to killing him off.
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The Daynes are First Men. There is (or was) a weirwood at Starfall. Not that that affects the TOJ.
 
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