FL Gov. Ron DeSantis Signs Civics Bill Requiring Students to Learn Evils of ‘Communism, Totalitarian Ideologies’

Ponca Dan

Heisman Candidate
Gold Member
Dec 7, 2003
10,463
8,150
113
Damn I am glad I am not one of your laborers. Sounds like you don't have a high opinion of them.

Dan please grapple with the fact that is how thing work today, yet we have plenty of invention and innovation. Until you can acknowledge or dispute this fact we are at an impasse.

Again this is at odds with how things work now. There are millions of patents you can search through that have a different assignee than inventor. As far as I can tell there isn't a black market in any of them.

You are mistaken about me and you are mistaken about what drives society. Society is driven forward by armies of " mind numbed engineers." What is the most important invention of the 21st century that was invented independent of an organization?

Geniuses don't do it for the money Dan, they do it to create.

That's hokum Dan.

They didn't know the right nazis.

Listen to yourself Dan. Mao Zedong ruled from 1949 to 1976 and that means China was a peasant society as recently as the 1950s and you expect them to have a rocket?

Peasant society in 1950. 20% urbanized in 1980. Those are 1870s numbers for the US. Massively better education? China only had less than an 80% literacy rate as late as 1990!

The lesson of course is the development happens in stages and you can't go from peasants to rocket scientists in a generation. You have to industrialize before you can excel at knowledge work.

And yet almost all the products you know and love (and even more of the B2B products that enable all of that) came from a company under the supervision of board members.
Okay, I’m pretty much talked out. We obviously have different visions for an efficient society. I see a society of ftee people exercising their free will as independent individuals. Your vision is a collectivist society similar to a beehive, as best as I can tell. It’s two opposing visions, with one major difference. A free society has tolerance for those of you that want to be part of a collective. You just can’t force your vision on anyone that doesn’t want to participate. By your own admission your collectivist society provides no such tolerance. IMO any vision that has to be crammed down the throats of dissidents is not a society worth having.
 

pokefan24/7

Heisman Winner
Gold Member
Jan 27, 2003
14,278
7,060
113
Cool. Marijuana is legal in like 30 states now.
It's almost like most people realized marijuana isn't that bad after years of researching it. It would be nice if people would realize how bad communism is after watching it fail everywhere and kill millions of people. Yet here you are, as useful and idiotic as ever.
 

07pilt

Heisman Winner
Gold Member
Nov 16, 2012
14,300
5,636
113
To argue against Pilt’s socialism is not to argue for the status quo. You’re trying to turn the argument away from Pilt’s socialism.
Dan, I only brought up the status quo in a parenthetical about an anecdote about a slogan on a sign.
 

07pilt

Heisman Winner
Gold Member
Nov 16, 2012
14,300
5,636
113
Okay, I’m pretty much talked out. We obviously have different visions for an efficient society. I see a society of ftee people exercising their free will as independent individuals. Your vision is a collectivist society similar to a beehive, as best as I can tell.
Must be the generation gap. I see it flipped.
It’s two opposing visions, with one major difference. A free society has tolerance for those of you that want to be part of a collective. You just can’t force your vision on anyone that doesn’t want to participate.
They are both free societies just with different laws regarding property rights.
 

07pilt

Heisman Winner
Gold Member
Nov 16, 2012
14,300
5,636
113
It's almost like most people realized marijuana isn't that bad after years of researching it. It would be nice if people would realize how bad communism is after watching it fail everywhere and kill millions of people. Yet here you are, as useful and idiotic as ever.
Only one of is uncritically spouting unresearched talking points.
 

07pilt

Heisman Winner
Gold Member
Nov 16, 2012
14,300
5,636
113
I can't imagine being so brainwashed to the point where I'm simping for communism. What a disgusting POS you are. Communism has directly caused at least 100 million deaths. How many deaths do you think Capitalism is directly responsible for?
Lies, pure propaganda. Talk about being a useful idiot.
 

pokefan24/7

Heisman Winner
Gold Member
Jan 27, 2003
14,278
7,060
113
Lies, pure propaganda. Talk about being a useful idiot.
So this is serious and not a shtick? Because if so, you might be the most worthless person on this board. Completely devoid of rational thought and intelligence. Move to communist China if you love communism so much. Your ilk has already ruined this country enough, time to move along. By the way. Go ahead and add another 4 million to that total thanks to China releasing Covid on the world and lying about it with the help of the CDC and American media.
 
  • Like
Reactions: okcpokefan12

07pilt

Heisman Winner
Gold Member
Nov 16, 2012
14,300
5,636
113
So this is serious and not a shtick? Because if so, you might be the most worthless person on this board. Completely devoid of rational thought and intelligence. Move to communist China if you love communism so much. Your ilk has already ruined this country enough, time to move along. By the way. Go ahead and add another 4 million to that total thanks to China releasing Covid on the world and lying about it with the help of the CDC and American media.
Tell me more about rational thought while you uncritically parrot the 100 million number that you have no clue about. I am going to ruin this country further and it will be up to you to leave if you don't like it.
 

Medic007

MegaPoke is insane
Sep 25, 2006
27,213
37,522
113
Tell me more about rational thought while you uncritically parrot the 100 million number that you have no clue about. I am going to ruin this country further and it will be up to you to leave if you don't like it.
Give us some links that refute communist murder totals. Surely you have some with your staunch assertion that the communist murder total is propaganda.
 

07pilt

Heisman Winner
Gold Member
Nov 16, 2012
14,300
5,636
113
Give us some links that refute communist murder totals. Surely you have some with your staunch assertion that the communist murder total is propaganda.
Give us some links that refute that you murdered 100 people.
Its just a made up number, unconnected to any reality. Look into it.
 

OUSOONER67

Heisman Candidate
Mar 23, 2004
6,571
16,914
113
Tell me more about rational thought while you uncritically parrot the 100 million number that you have no clue about. I am going to ruin this country further and it will be up to you to leave if you don't like it.


tenor.gif
 
  • Like
Reactions: iasooner2000

Medic007

MegaPoke is insane
Sep 25, 2006
27,213
37,522
113
Give us some links that refute that you murdered 100 people.
Its just a made up number, unconnected to any reality. Look into it.
So, no links to support your version? Everything I read from reputable sources says communism is quite the murderous ideology.
 
  • Like
Reactions: iasooner2000

Ponca Dan

Heisman Candidate
Gold Member
Dec 7, 2003
10,463
8,150
113
Any links?
I believe the 100 million statistic comes from The Black Book of Communism, data compiled by a couple of French socialists as I recall. Here’s a link:




I’m sure the socialist/communist adherents have bent themselves into pretzels to prove the figure wrong. And maybe it is, I’m no authority on the subject. But it is troubling to me that you seem so indifferent to the brutal authoritarianism and tyranny perpetrated by those who claim to be on your side of the aisle. It is astonishing to me that you want so desperately to claim murder equivalence with liberal western democracies. Who, don’t get me wrong, are responsible for their share of murder (it’s kinda the nature of every government to stay in power by murdering people.). The difference is they haven’t gone out of their way to imprison and murder their own citizens nearly to the extent of socialist/collectivist governments. It is striking to me, and should be of concern to you, that as America closes in on becoming socialist we are seeing heightened tyranny creep into the government’s playbook. What you can’t seem to comprehend is collectivist governments are tyrannical
by their very nature, it is cooked into their being, it is a pathology of collectivism. I don’t know how old you are, but if you’re as young as I suspect I think you will be in for a rude awakening once you have your way. I pray I am 6 feet under before that day arrives, because I feel certain the collectivist government to which you aspire will intentionally put me 6 feet under as soon as they recognize I defy them.
 
Last edited:

07pilt

Heisman Winner
Gold Member
Nov 16, 2012
14,300
5,636
113
I believe the 100 million statistic comes from The Black Book of Communism, data compiled by a couple of French socialists as I recall. Here’s a link:


That number includes deaths caused by the White Russian counter revolution, and Nazis and Nazi collaborators

The co authors of the book are on the record saying it is sloppy and exaggerated

"Nicolas Werth and Jean-Louis Margolin sparked a scandal in Paris when they publicly disassociated themselves from Courtois's opinions about the scale of Communist terror, asserting that his introduction was more a diatribe than a balanced scholarly treatment. They felt that he was obsessed with attributing a body count of 100 million to communism, and like several other scholars, they rejected his equation of Soviet repression with Nazi genocide. Werth, a well-regarded French specialist on the Soviet Union whose sections in the Black Book on the Soviet Communists are sober and damning, told Le Monde, "Death camps did not exist in the Soviet Union.""

The methodology used paints an even worse picture of liberal capitalism:

"Overcoming amnesia, suppose we now apply the methodology of the Black Book and its reviewers to the full story, not just the doctrinally acceptable half. We therefore conclude that in India the democratic capitalist "experiment" since 1947 has caused more deaths than in the entire history of the "colossal, wholly failed...experiment" of Communism everywhere since 1917: over 100 million deaths by 1979, tens of millions more since, in India alone. The "criminal indictment" of the "democratic capitalist experiment" becomes harsher still if we turn to its effects after the fall of Communism: millions of corpses in Russia, to take one case, as Russia followed the confident prescription of the World Bank that "Countries that liberalise rapidly and extensively turn around more quickly [than those that do not]," returning to something like what it had been before World War I, a picture familiar throughout the "third world." But "you can't make an omelette without broken eggs," as Stalin would have said. The indictment becomes far harsher if we consider these vast areas that remained under Western tutelage, yielding a truly "colossal" record of skeletons and "absolutely futile, pointless and inexplicable suffering" (Ryan). The indictment takes on further force when we add to the account the countries devastated by the direct assaults of Western power, and its clients, during the same years."


But it is troubling to me that you seem so indifferent to the brutal authoritarianism and tyranny perpetrated by those who claim to be on your side of the aisle.
Brutal authoritarianism and tyranny is bad regardless of the side of the aisle it comes from. You should note though that the authoritarianism and tyranny you criticize was not ushered in by communism, the countries suffered under authoritarianism and tyranny long before communism. Communism was just a rebranding and often times softening of the authoritarianism. A person living in Moscow post-Stalin was freer than a person living in Moscow under the Tsars.

It is astonishing to me that you want so desperately to claim murder equivalence with liberal western democracies.
See Noam Chomsky above. Also please take a moment to better consider the victims of liberal western democracy. Slaves, Native Americans, Indigenous Australians, Zulus, Boers, The people of India and China, The people of Russia in the 90s, the people dying in prisons today in America, the people dying today in America especially the southeastern states because of inadequate medical care. Then add to that all the bodies from military interventions. Its not a pretty picture Dan.
The difference is they haven’t gone out of their way to imprison and murder their own citizens nearly to the extent of socialist/collectivist governments.
1920px-World_map_of_prison_population_rates_from_World_Prison_Brief.svg.png

It is striking to me, and should be of concern to you, that as America closes in on becoming socialist we are seeing heightened tyranny creep into the government’s playbook. What you can’t seem to comprehend is collectivist governments are tyrannical by their very nature, it is cooked into their being, it is a pathology of collectivism.
Is America closing in on becoming socialist? Is tyranny being heightened? Dan if you say all collectivist governments are tyrannical, all it take to disprove that statement is that one collectivist government isn't tyrannical? I'll let you guess which government I have in mind.
I don’t know how old you are, but if you’re as young as I suspect I think you will be in for a rude awakening once you have your way. I pray I am 6 feet under before that day arrives, because I feel certain the collectivist government to which you aspire will intentionally put me 6 feet under as soon as they recognize I defy them.
I have a feeling this is going to go about the same way as your CDC tyranny prediction and your inflation prediction. We'll see!
 

Ponca Dan

Heisman Candidate
Gold Member
Dec 7, 2003
10,463
8,150
113
That number includes deaths caused by the White Russian counter revolution, and Nazis and Nazi collaborators

The co authors of the book are on the record saying it is sloppy and exaggerated

"Nicolas Werth and Jean-Louis Margolin sparked a scandal in Paris when they publicly disassociated themselves from Courtois's opinions about the scale of Communist terror, asserting that his introduction was more a diatribe than a balanced scholarly treatment. They felt that he was obsessed with attributing a body count of 100 million to communism, and like several other scholars, they rejected his equation of Soviet repression with Nazi genocide. Werth, a well-regarded French specialist on the Soviet Union whose sections in the Black Book on the Soviet Communists are sober and damning, told Le Monde, "Death camps did not exist in the Soviet Union.""

The methodology used paints an even worse picture of liberal capitalism:

"Overcoming amnesia, suppose we now apply the methodology of the Black Book and its reviewers to the full story, not just the doctrinally acceptable half. We therefore conclude that in India the democratic capitalist "experiment" since 1947 has caused more deaths than in the entire history of the "colossal, wholly failed...experiment" of Communism everywhere since 1917: over 100 million deaths by 1979, tens of millions more since, in India alone. The "criminal indictment" of the "democratic capitalist experiment" becomes harsher still if we turn to its effects after the fall of Communism: millions of corpses in Russia, to take one case, as Russia followed the confident prescription of the World Bank that "Countries that liberalise rapidly and extensively turn around more quickly [than those that do not]," returning to something like what it had been before World War I, a picture familiar throughout the "third world." But "you can't make an omelette without broken eggs," as Stalin would have said. The indictment becomes far harsher if we consider these vast areas that remained under Western tutelage, yielding a truly "colossal" record of skeletons and "absolutely futile, pointless and inexplicable suffering" (Ryan). The indictment takes on further force when we add to the account the countries devastated by the direct assaults of Western power, and its clients, during the same years."



Brutal authoritarianism and tyranny is bad regardless of the side of the aisle it comes from. You should note though that the authoritarianism and tyranny you criticize was not ushered in by communism, the countries suffered under authoritarianism and tyranny long before communism. Communism was just a rebranding and often times softening of the authoritarianism. A person living in Moscow post-Stalin was freer than a person living in Moscow under the Tsars.


See Noam Chomsky above. Also please take a moment to better consider the victims of liberal western democracy. Slaves, Native Americans, Indigenous Australians, Zulus, Boers, The people of India and China, The people of Russia in the 90s, the people dying in prisons today in America, the people dying today in America especially the southeastern states because of inadequate medical care. Then add to that all the bodies from military interventions. Its not a pretty picture Dan.

1920px-World_map_of_prison_population_rates_from_World_Prison_Brief.svg.png


Is America closing in on becoming socialist? Is tyranny being heightened? Dan if you say all collectivist governments are tyrannical, all it take to disprove that statement is that one collectivist government isn't tyrannical? I'll let you guess which government I have in mind.

I have a feeling this is going to go about the same way as your CDC tyranny prediction and your inflation prediction. We'll see!


As I said previously I’m sure the pro-communists/socialists have bent over backward to discredit the number. And as I also said the count may be off. I’m in no position to know (and neither are you). But even if the numbers are off by a factor of five (we both know they aren’t) the brutal methods of murdering their own people by collectivist governments ought to nauseate you. They’re part of your team after all. It shocks me that you are so cavalierly indifferent to the suffering your style of government causes, regardless of what liberal democracies have shown themselves capable of doing.

Your repeated attempts to portray “equivalence” to liberal democratic governments, as if what your team has done to its own people is acceptable because the other government type was bad, too, and your team’s violence against its own people is nothing but an improvement over the government it overthrew, is a testament to your disdain of human liberty. This is a side of you that I had not recognized in the past, and to be honest it horrifies me. I beg that you forget the “other team” for the moment and consider what your team has proven capable of and willing to do. There’s a reason for my philosophical anarchism, and this is the reason.
 

Medic007

MegaPoke is insane
Sep 25, 2006
27,213
37,522
113
That number includes deaths caused by the White Russian counter revolution, and Nazis and Nazi collaborators

The co authors of the book are on the record saying it is sloppy and exaggerated

"Nicolas Werth and Jean-Louis Margolin sparked a scandal in Paris when they publicly disassociated themselves from Courtois's opinions about the scale of Communist terror, asserting that his introduction was more a diatribe than a balanced scholarly treatment. They felt that he was obsessed with attributing a body count of 100 million to communism, and like several other scholars, they rejected his equation of Soviet repression with Nazi genocide. Werth, a well-regarded French specialist on the Soviet Union whose sections in the Black Book on the Soviet Communists are sober and damning, told Le Monde, "Death camps did not exist in the Soviet Union.""

The methodology used paints an even worse picture of liberal capitalism:

"Overcoming amnesia, suppose we now apply the methodology of the Black Book and its reviewers to the full story, not just the doctrinally acceptable half. We therefore conclude that in India the democratic capitalist "experiment" since 1947 has caused more deaths than in the entire history of the "colossal, wholly failed...experiment" of Communism everywhere since 1917: over 100 million deaths by 1979, tens of millions more since, in India alone. The "criminal indictment" of the "democratic capitalist experiment" becomes harsher still if we turn to its effects after the fall of Communism: millions of corpses in Russia, to take one case, as Russia followed the confident prescription of the World Bank that "Countries that liberalise rapidly and extensively turn around more quickly [than those that do not]," returning to something like what it had been before World War I, a picture familiar throughout the "third world." But "you can't make an omelette without broken eggs," as Stalin would have said. The indictment becomes far harsher if we consider these vast areas that remained under Western tutelage, yielding a truly "colossal" record of skeletons and "absolutely futile, pointless and inexplicable suffering" (Ryan). The indictment takes on further force when we add to the account the countries devastated by the direct assaults of Western power, and its clients, during the same years."



Brutal authoritarianism and tyranny is bad regardless of the side of the aisle it comes from. You should note though that the authoritarianism and tyranny you criticize was not ushered in by communism, the countries suffered under authoritarianism and tyranny long before communism. Communism was just a rebranding and often times softening of the authoritarianism. A person living in Moscow post-Stalin was freer than a person living in Moscow under the Tsars.


See Noam Chomsky above. Also please take a moment to better consider the victims of liberal western democracy. Slaves, Native Americans, Indigenous Australians, Zulus, Boers, The people of India and China, The people of Russia in the 90s, the people dying in prisons today in America, the people dying today in America especially the southeastern states because of inadequate medical care. Then add to that all the bodies from military interventions. Its not a pretty picture Dan.

1920px-World_map_of_prison_population_rates_from_World_Prison_Brief.svg.png


Is America closing in on becoming socialist? Is tyranny being heightened? Dan if you say all collectivist governments are tyrannical, all it take to disprove that statement is that one collectivist government isn't tyrannical? I'll let you guess which government I have in mind.

I have a feeling this is going to go about the same way as your CDC tyranny prediction and your inflation prediction. We'll see!
You included a graphic on prison population from 2018 to show the the USA imprisons more people than Communist Russia did?
 

07pilt

Heisman Winner
Gold Member
Nov 16, 2012
14,300
5,636
113
As I said previously I’m sure the pro-communists/socialists have bent over backward to discredit the number.
And as I also said the count may be off. I’m in no position to know (and neither are you). But even if the numbers are off by a factor of five (we both know they aren’t)
factor of five is starting to sound reasonable. If any of this matters, then getting it right matters. And throwing out 100 million as a shock number serves only to obscure the facts.
the brutal methods of murdering their own people by collectivist governments ought to nauseate you.
I don't think the brutal methods of murdering their own people has been established and therefore it doesn't nauseate me. To quote one of the intellectually honest contributors to the Black Book "Death camps did not exist in the Soviet Union."
They’re part of your team after all. It shocks me that you are so cavalierly indifferent to the suffering your style of government causes, regardless of what liberal democracies have shown themselves capable of doing.
Again Dan, you want to skip right past establishing the suffering my style of government causes and get right to me feeling bad about it. You have work to do.

What suffering has been caused by democratically implemented socialism in an advanced country with a liberal political tradition?
Your repeated attempts to portray “equivalence” to liberal democratic governments, as if what your team has done to its own people is acceptable because the other government type was bad, too,
Not equivalent at all. Liberal democratic governments have a far worse record. Who said it was acceptable?
This is a side of you that I had not recognized in the past, and to be honest it horrifies me. I beg that you forget the “other team” for the moment and consider what your team has proven capable of and willing to do. There’s a reason for my philosophical anarchism, and this is the reason.
My team of democratically implemented socialism in an advanced country with a liberal political tradition? What are they capable of?
 

Medic007

MegaPoke is insane
Sep 25, 2006
27,213
37,522
113
My team of democratically implemented socialism in an advanced country with a liberal political tradition? What are they capable of?
Sounds great in phantasy land. Any real world examples of successful countries with pilt's socialism?
 
  • Like
Reactions: iasooner2000

Ponca Dan

Heisman Candidate
Gold Member
Dec 7, 2003
10,463
8,150
113
Sounds great in phantasy land. Any real world examples of successful countries with pilt's socialism?
As I have said before the word “socialism” is a phantom word that can mean whatever the person that uses it wants it to mean. Pilt’s socialism is Norway’s high tax welfare state. He’s dug in with that definition and he isn’t budging from it. In a twisted way you have to admire his persistence. It’s the singular opportunity for him to declare socialism/communism isn’t a murderous philosophy. Every other “definition” has been accompanied by mass starvation, political prisons and outright slaughter.
 

Medic007

MegaPoke is insane
Sep 25, 2006
27,213
37,522
113
As I have said before the word “socialism” is a phantom word that can mean whatever the person that uses it wants it to mean. Pilt’s socialism is Norway’s high tax welfare state. He’s dug in with that definition and he isn’t budging from it. In a twisted way you have to admire his persistence. It’s the singular opportunity for him to declare socialism/communism isn’t a murderous philosophy. Every other “definition” has been accompanied by mass starvation, political prisons and outright slaughter.
It is hilarious watching him try to sanitize communism's track record. But hey, maybe this time it will work in the real world and not just in the books and lecture halls.
 
  • Like
Reactions: iasooner2000

07pilt

Heisman Winner
Gold Member
Nov 16, 2012
14,300
5,636
113
As I have said before the word “socialism” is a phantom word that can mean whatever the person that uses it wants it to mean. Pilt’s socialism is Norway’s high tax welfare state. He’s dug in with that definition and he isn’t budging from it. In a twisted way you have to admire his persistence.
Less admirable is your absolute refusal to budge from your position that Norway is merely a high tax welfare state in the face of overwhelming evidence that the state owns and control a great portion of the means of production.
It’s the singular opportunity for him to declare socialism/communism isn’t a murderous philosophy. Every other “definition” has been accompanied by mass starvation, political prisons and outright slaughter.
Again Dan I would encourage you to look at the world absent communism. Starvation, political prisons and outright slaughter were all present prior to and parallel to communism. Is it possible that the peculiarities of the economic system chosen isn't the cause of these scourges?
 

Ponca Dan

Heisman Candidate
Gold Member
Dec 7, 2003
10,463
8,150
113
Less admirable is your absolute refusal to budge from your position that Norway is merely a high tax welfare state in the face of overwhelming evidence that the state owns and control a great portion of the means of production.

Again Dan I would encourage you to look at the world absent communism. Starvation, political prisons and outright slaughter were all present prior to and parallel to communism. Is it possible that the peculiarities of the economic system chosen isn't the cause of these scourges?


I wonder if you would provide data on precisely what portion of the means of production the government of Norway owns, along with what you mean by the term “owns.”

I have spent much of my adult life looking at the brutalizations of people by governments of every persuasion. It’s part and parcel to what has led me to become an anarchist. An anarchist, as you may or may not know, aligns himself with no particular type of government because when he looks at government actions he sees horror everywhere he looks. I have told you several times I am not “defending” what other governments do and have done when I attack collectivist governments that enforce collectivist economics systems such as socialism on a defenseless population. The historical record of collectivist/socialist governments is absurd in its depravity, irrespective of the historical record of liberal democracies. IMO butchery by liberal democracies pale in comparison to collectivist nightmares. But my comments on this thread are not about comparing the two, in spite of your increasing desire to make it so. This is about the brutal uncivilized behavior of those who claim to be collectivist/socialism/communist once they assume power. I for one am of the conviction the murder count probably does approach 100 million. But as I said if it’s really “only” one fifth that number and is 20 million, if I were in your shoes I would not attempt to defend (spin) the number under any circumstance. I’ll say it again: it horrifies me to see you do so in such a cold blooded manner.
 

soonerinlOUisiana

Heisman Winner
May 29, 2004
12,562
9,536
113
fvck off, leftists
www.youtube.com
Less admirable is your absolute refusal to budge from your position that Norway is merely a high tax welfare state in the face of overwhelming evidence that the state owns and control a great portion of the means of production.

Again Dan I would encourage you to look at the world absent communism. Starvation, political prisons and outright slaughter were all present prior to and parallel to communism. Is it possible that the peculiarities of the economic system chosen isn't the cause of these scourges?
"Parallel"? Starvation, political prisons and outright slaughter were communism's fvcking MO/SOP and still are. Go suck Che's dead dick.
 

Ponca Dan

Heisman Candidate
Gold Member
Dec 7, 2003
10,463
8,150
113
Less admirable is your absolute refusal to budge from your position that Norway is merely a high tax welfare state in the face of overwhelming evidence that the state owns and control a great portion of the means of production.

Again Dan I would encourage you to look at the world absent communism. Starvation, political prisons and outright slaughter were all present prior to and parallel to communism. Is it possible that the peculiarities of the economic system chosen isn't the cause of these scourges?
Here’s Caitlin Johnstone speaking for both of us. The difference between our two viewpoints is I see it clear as a day about both types of government and condemn them both. You, OTOH, seem to think if one side does it that makes it okay for the other side to do it, too.


 

07pilt

Heisman Winner
Gold Member
Nov 16, 2012
14,300
5,636
113
I wonder if you would provide data on precisely what portion of the means of production the government of Norway owns, along with what you mean by the term “owns.”
As of 2016 the government of Norway owns 331% of its GDP in financial assets, and the value of state owned enterprises made up 87.9% of GDP in 2012.
The government controls around 35% of the value of publicly listed companies. The government has an ownership stake of 34-64% in 5 of the 7 largest listed companies in Norway.

Here is the state ownership report from 2019. https://www.regjeringen.no/en/aktuelt/statens-eierberetning-2019/id2705591/


I have spent much of my adult life looking at the brutalizations of people by governments of every persuasion. It’s part and parcel to what has led me to become an anarchist. An anarchist, as you may or may not know, aligns himself with no particular type of government because when he looks at government actions he sees horror everywhere he looks. I have told you several times I am not “defending” what other governments do and have done when I attack collectivist governments that enforce collectivist economics systems such as socialism on a defenseless population. The historical record of collectivist/socialist governments is absurd in its depravity, irrespective of the historical record of liberal democracies. IMO butchery by liberal democracies pale in comparison to collectivist nightmares. But my comments on this thread are not about comparing the two, in spite of your increasing desire to make it so. This is about the brutal uncivilized behavior of those who claim to be collectivist/socialism/communist once they assume power. I for one am of the conviction the murder count probably does approach 100 million. But as I said if it’s really “only” one fifth that number and is 20 million, if I were in your shoes I would not attempt to defend (spin) the number under any circumstance. I’ll say it again: it horrifies me to see you do so in such a cold blooded manner.
Dan, of course collectivism looks bad compared to the your perfect world of Utopian Libertarian bliss that can only exist for minutes at a time.
 

07pilt

Heisman Winner
Gold Member
Nov 16, 2012
14,300
5,636
113
Here’s Caitlin Johnstone speaking for both of us. The difference between our two viewpoints is I see it clear as a day about both types of government and condemn them both. You, OTOH, seem to think if one side does it that makes it okay for the other side to do it, too.


To be clear Dan, I do not advocate totalitarian government even in the slightest.
 

Medic007

MegaPoke is insane
Sep 25, 2006
27,213
37,522
113
As of 2016 the government of Norway owns 331% of its GDP in financial assets, and the value of state owned enterprises made up 87.9% of GDP in 2012.
The government controls around 35% of the value of publicly listed companies. The government has an ownership stake of 34-64% in 5 of the 7 largest listed companies in Norway.

Here is the state ownership report from 2019. https://www.regjeringen.no/en/aktuelt/statens-eierberetning-2019/id2705591/



Dan, of course collectivism looks bad compared to the your perfect world of Utopian Libertarian bliss that can only exist for minutes at a time.
And still isn't the socialism you claim it is...

Why aren't there any successful communist governments, pilt? Effing weird.
 

Latest posts