Dog question

[tcpoke]

Didn't want to derail poke r us' thread, but it got me wondering.

Is having a dog's teeth cleaned something that needs to be done. I've had a dog more or less my entire life but have never had my dogs' teeth cleaned that I remember. Maybe it's a small breed thing as the thread seems to revolve around small dogs.

Just curious.
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[EvilPOKES]

It's mostly a small breed thing because they don't have the jaw strength to properly clean their teeth chewing on bones, sticks, etc.
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[Football_Goddess]

It depends more on the dog than anything. There is a genetic component to some of this. Some dogs simply have an easier time keeping the plaque off their teeth than others. It's true that smaller dogs may have more issues, but I've seen some Great Danes with truly nasty teeth (I worked for a vet in high school. Having to remove an incisor from a dog that big is...interesting). Every year when you take your dog in for its shots (you do take him in once a year, right?), your vet should check its teeth and tell you if it's time for a teeth cleaning. If he/she doesn't, you can ask them to check. I have 4 cats, all technically at the age where they need dentals, but only one of them has ever had his teeth cleaned because the other three don't have teeth issues. However, if your vet advise a dental, I'd listen. Keeping your pet's teeth clean is one of the best things you can do to increase its life expectancy. Once your pet hits its golden years (7 for cats, depends on the breed for dogs), any procedure that requires anesthesia should probably be accompanied by a blood panel. If your pet has any chronic health issues, it should probably get pre-anesthesia blood work regardless of age.

 

[Dally1up]

I have a theory on this (sorta). Been around farm dogs (hunting dogs, sporting dogs, heelers, etc.) all my life. Farm dogs may or may not get shots, heartworm meds, etc. Farm dogs tear up varmints, skunks, oppossums, and the like while abusing their body along the way. They get kicked from cows and hit by cars. They get exercise daily because they are free to roam which generally for my theory, means they carry less weight late in life. Toothbrushes? Porcupine quills are the closest they will get to that. Food, they are fed the half a coffee can of the local co-op's dog food plus a bonus of Thursday nights leftovers from time to time. These dogs are happy, these dogs live a long fruitful life before being buried behind the barn for free.

House dogs are spoiled, they sit on couches, might have their nails done, and get vet checkups. They never miss a month of meds with their overpriced blue buffalo or science diet organic food. They go on occasional walks but for the most part are kicked out on the pad for a few minutes to do their chores before allowed back on the couch and are many times just carried from room to room by an owner who looks eerily similar to the dog. They get their teeth cleaned because the city vet said it is best for the dog. These dogs lives are cut short but live the $$$good$$$ life before their owners pay the money to be put down and buried.

My theory is that city dogs taken to city vets are overcharged, over medicated, over fed, etc. and generally find themselves overweight. I can think of countless acquaintances who have the typical lab for the typical family and if the dog makes it to 6 or 7 years of age is so big that it couldn't walk a mile if it had to. I guess my theory is that if you treat a dog like a human you are asking for trouble. That, and in choosing a vet, always choose the one who has a cattle crowding tub and squeeze chute in back. You will get common sense for a reasonable price.

I once had a vet (grew up on farm went to OSU) tell me the last place he would practice is back in the sticks. He said something along the lines that a woman with a dog in a purse is money in the bank. They will believe and buy anything and that dog is probably less off in the long run.

Just my theory.

 

[BixbyPoke]

Originally posted by Dally1up:

I have a theory on this (sorta). Been around farm dogs (hunting dogs, sporting dogs, heelers, etc.) all my life. Farm dogs may or may not get shots, heartworm meds, etc. Farm dogs tear up varmints, skunks, oppossums, and the like while abusing their body along the way. They get kicked from cows and hit by cars. They get exercise daily because they are free to roam which generally for my theory, means they carry less weight late in life. Toothbrushes? Porcupine quills are the closest they will get to that. Food, they are fed the half a coffee can of the local co-op's dog food plus a bonus of Thursday nights leftovers from time to time. These dogs are happy, these dogs live a long fruitful life before being buried behind the barn for free.

House dogs are spoiled, they sit on couches, might have their nails done, and get vet checkups. They never miss a month of meds with their overpriced blue buffalo or science diet organic food. They go on occasional walks but for the most part are kicked out on the pad for a few minutes to do their chores before allowed back on the couch and are many times just carried from room to room by an owner who looks eerily similar to the dog. They get their teeth cleaned because the city vet said it is best for the dog. These dogs lives are cut short but live the $$$good$$$ life before their owners pay the money to be put down and buried.

My theory is that city dogs taken to city vets are overcharged, over medicated, over fed, etc. and generally find themselves overweight. I can think of countless acquaintances who have the typical lab for the typical family and if the dog makes it to 6 or 7 years of age is so big that it couldn't walk a mile if it had to. I guess my theory is that if you treat a dog like a human you are asking for trouble. That, and in choosing a vet, always choose the one who has a cattle crowding tub and squeeze chute in back. You will get common sense for a reasonable price.

I once had a vet (grew up on farm went to OSU) tell me the last place he would practice is back in the sticks. He said something along the lines that a woman with a dog in a purse is money in the bank. They will believe and buy anything and that dog is probably less off in the long run.

Just my theory.

Are you under the impression that "overpriced blue buffalo" isn't significantly better for dogs than the crap people buy from Wal Mart?

I think you are lumping too much stuff together in your theory. People might overfeed indoor dogs or not exercise them enough, but lumping in dog food quality and vet visits as a negative is ignorant.

 

[Been Jammin]

Originally posted by Football_Goddess:
It depends more on the dog than anything. There is a genetic component to some of this. Some dogs simply have an easier time keeping the plaque off their teeth than others. It's true that smaller dogs may have more issues, but I've seen some Great Danes with truly nasty teeth (I worked for a vet in high school. Having to remove an incisor from a dog that big is...interesting). Every year when you take your dog in for its shots (you do take him in once a year, right?), your vet should check its teeth and tell you if it's time for a teeth cleaning. If he/she doesn't, you can ask them to check. I have 4 cats, all technically at the age where they need dentals, but only one of them has ever had his teeth cleaned because the other three don't have teeth issues. However, if your vet advise a dental, I'd listen. Keeping your pet's teeth clean is one of the best things you can do to increase its life expectancy. Once your pet hits its golden years (7 for cats, depends on the breed for dogs), any procedure that requires anesthesia should probably be accompanied by a blood panel. If your pet has any chronic health issues, it should probably get pre-anesthesia blood work regardless of age.

Really good information here. Especially coming from someone who is not a veterinarian. I am a strong believer that one of the biggest reasons that human life expectancy is much longer than it was 100 years ago is improved dental care. If you think about it, it just makes sense. Poor dental care leads to tartar on/between teeth. Tartar is composed of bacteria. That bacteria penetrates the gum tissue and gets into the blood stream. From there, it can cause problems with the heart, lungs, liver, kidneys, etc.

IMO, in general, most dogs/cats should have a professional dental cleaning annually after about age 3. Some of my patients need it as early as 1.5 years of age. Some of my patients never look like they need it. If your dog has tartar accumulating on teeth or if the gumline is red and inflamed, he/she needs a professional dental cleaning. Not only do I think it will lead to better overall health, but it will prevent future pain when eating/chewing, as well as future tooth loss.

Patients must be anesthetized in order to do a good job. Some vets might cut corners when it comes to anesthesia, and that is something to watch out for. In my office, clients do not get a choice when it comes to anesthesia. Every patient has pre-surgical labwork, a pre-surgical EKG, and IV fluids before, during and after the procedure (Helps maintain blood pressure, which promotes good blood flow to the vital organs. Also gives easy access to the circulatory system if the patient needs meds to stimulate breathing, heart rate, etc). Some clients are afraid to anesthetize older patients, but the risk is no greater than that of a 3 year old patient as long as the older patient has normal physical exam, bloodwork and EKG.

Once anesthetized, careful monitoring of BP, Temperature, Heart rate, SpO2, and breathing is of key importance. Basically, you want your vet that sticks to the same level of care that you would get if you were to undergo surgery in a hospital.

 

[tcpoke]

I take them to the vet for routine shots. And then we are usually in once or twice a year for some random accident/illness/etc. I know they look at their teeth, but have never recommended a cleaning. I like our vet, and he is a former professor at OSU so I assume he does a fantastic job.

I've also never had a dog die what I would consider prematurely. Guess we are just lucky.

I do subscribe to a lot of Dally's theory, with the exception of food choice. None of my dogs have ever had any food off of our plates with the exception of what the kids may have dropped. I feed them a relatively high quality dog food and subscribe to the free feeding theory. Never once have I had a vet tell me that one of my dogs needs to lose weight.

I make a conscious effort to get them out where they can simply run/explore/chase/someone catch and kill on a regular basis. They aren't country dogs by any means (we live in Jenks), but we try to give that experience as much as possible. In my mind I look at them as there is still a part that is "wild" and they need to have an outlet for that.

Guess I'll just take the teeth cleaning as it comes or doesn't.

Thanks for the responses.
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[BigBobBarker]

BJ,
What do you use for anesthesia? Do you use the tests as a screening tool whether to proceed or not or do something different depending on what the tests look like?

 

[Been Jammin]

Originally posted by BigBobBarker:
BJ,
What do you use for anesthesia? Do you use the tests as a screening tool whether to proceed or not or do something different depending on what the tests look like?

Usually induce with Telazol or Propofol. Maintain on Isoflourane.

Depends on the case. Sometimes I will adjust protocol based on test results. Sometimes I will use them to make adjustments to fluid therapy. Sometimes I will postpone the procedure and recommend additional testing before I am willing to anesthetize.

 

[BigBobBarker]

Interesting. So you intubate them I assume? You have a vent and vaporizer similar to a human set up? I thought you might just slug them with im ketamine and get to work when they fall into their doggy k-hole without an airway or IV? Can you use nitrous in animals? 50/50 nitrous/ISO would have less hemodynamic suppression than straight ISO.

 

[Been Jammin]

Yes. We intubate them. Personally, I have 2 anesthesia machines with vaporizer and scavenger system. No ventilator, but you will find those at most specialty practices (i.e. surgical specialist who might do intra-thoracic surgery). We are able to breathe for the patient using the bag on our machines, but that is not ideal for cases where a ventilator is indicated. My patients almost always have an IV in place.

I don't know of any vets who use Nitrous. I remember it being around, a bit, when I first got out of vet school in '92, but it seems that everyone quickly switched to straight Halothane, then Iso. Many vets have since switched to Sevo, but I have not. I don't feel as comfortable with it due to concerns that they will wake up too fast and jump/fall off of the table.

A lot of vets still use Ketamine, but I like Telazol much better. It is very similar, but much smoother induction/recovery in my experience. I have never been a fan of just using Ketamine/Telazol with no inhalant. Too risky, and the patient can still feel pain.

 

[BigBobBarker]

I don't think there is any benefit to using sevo in a veterinary practice. I wouldn't switch. Iso is a great gas if you know how to use it. Do you extubate deep? Is broncho/larygospasm a concern?
Sorry for the hundred questions, I just find it very interesting.

 

[Bitter Creek]

Dally is 99% right. I also grew up on farms and in small towns where the dogs and cats had a role in daily life. They worked hard and had enjoyable lives.

 

[Poketologist]

Pets are pets, regardless of where they live. Not all of us can choose the farm life.
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[Been Jammin]

Originally posted by BigBobBarker:
I don't think there is any benefit to using sevo in a veterinary practice. I wouldn't switch. Iso is a great gas if you know how to use it. Do you extubate deep? Is broncho/larygospasm a concern?
Sorry for the hundred questions, I just find it very interesting.

I have never heard the term "extubate deep". We wait until the patient swallows at least twice before extubating. We wait longer on breeds that tend to have breathing issues (i.e. bulldogs).