Does Anyone Have An Idea ....

[Ponca Dan]

.... of when the tariffs are going to reverse the trade deficit as President Trump has promised?


https://moneymaven.io/mishtalk/econ...ports-3-0-imports-3-7-NgwKDoR2t0qaXuHqCRvAkw/

 

[Soonersincefitty]

.... of when the tariffs are going to reverse the trade deficit as President Trump has promised?


https://moneymaven.io/mishtalk/econ...ports-3-0-imports-3-7-NgwKDoR2t0qaXuHqCRvAkw/

No, but have you ever watched the Big Joe Polka show on the RFD channel?

It's a hoot!

 

[OUSOONER67]

.... of when the tariffs are going to reverse the trade deficit as President Trump has promised?


https://moneymaven.io/mishtalk/econ...ports-3-0-imports-3-7-NgwKDoR2t0qaXuHqCRvAkw/

Patience, takes a while to fix 8 yrs of Failure.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Patience, takes a while to fix 8 yrs of Failure.

OK, I’ll be patient. Can you tell me how patient I need to be? Upon initiating his original tariffs over a year ago, DJT assured us trade wars are easy to win. Like every other pronouncement the man makes he didn’t tell us how easy it would be, he just blurted out that they are easy. I thought “easy” would be a year or less. I was wrong, obviously. I’m hoping you might give me some guidance on an appropriate timeline. What’s your prognostication?

 

[JimmyBob]

No, but have you ever watched the Big Joe Polka show on the RFD channel?

It's a hoot!

This is better!

 

[Ostatedchi]

 

[imprimis]

The wheels of government move quite slow unless, as we saw yesterday, missing a vacation is a consequence of inaction.

Too many people nowadays expect immediate results from government actions especially if the actions are against their beliefs.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Interesting graph. In what way does it show a reduction in America's trade deficit? We were told the tariffs would reduce the trade deficit. That graph makes it look like the components have just been shifted around. The trade deficit continues to rise. How have the tariffs been effective in the purpose for which we were told they would be used? Oh, I forgot. You don't care about anything but punishing China for stealing your company's battery technology. Never mind. My questions are not pertinent to your revenge factor.

 

[Ponca Dan]

The wheels of government move quite slow unless, as we saw yesterday, missing a vacation is a consequence of inaction.

Too many people nowadays expect immediate results from government actions especially if the actions are against their beliefs.

Well, we were told winning the trade war with the rest of the world would be easy, that the world needs us much more than we need it. So I'm sorry if I seem to be impatient. I was obviously expecting quicker results. I thought that after a year of tariffs the deficit would start to turn around. So far it's still going up. Do you have a timeline for when the easy-to-win-trade-war will start to show positive results? My timeline is clearly out of whack.

 

[Ostatedchi]

Interesting graph. In what way does it show a reduction in America's trade deficit? We were told the tariffs would reduce the trade deficit. That graph makes it look like the components have just been shifted around. The trade deficit continues to rise. How have the tariffs been effective in the purpose for which we were told they would be used? Oh, I forgot. You don't care about anything but punishing China for stealing your company's battery technology. Never mind. My questions are not pertinent to your revenge factor.

Dumb projection on your part. What you call revenge, those people who have been stolen from would call justice.

What my graph shows is that tariffs DO work. They work to dissuade those who would profit from stolen tech from benefiting from their theft. I couldn't care less about trade deficits.

You seem to only care about profiting from those who would sell you stolen merchandise or profit off the backs of illegal labor that you can further oppress by paying reduced wages to. Who's the bad guy here? Hint, It isn't me.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Dumb projection on your part. What you call revenge, those people who have been stolen from would call justice.

What my graph shows is that tariffs DO work. They work to dissuade those who would profit from stolen tech from benefiting from their theft. I couldn't care less about trade deficits.

You seem to only care about profiting from those who would sell you stolen merchandise or profit off the backs of illegal labor that you can further oppress by paying reduced wages to. Who's the bad guy here? Hint, It isn't me.

No, what I care about is individuals having the freedom to trade with anyone of their choice. I'll gladly stand up with you to combat theft of anything, by anyone, at any time. Tariffs are a really stupid tactic. Find another "solution" and I'll join forces with you.

Oh, one other thing, your graph does not show that tariffs work. If the tariffs worked the trade deficit would be coming down.

 

[Ostatedchi]

No, what I care about is individuals having the freedom to trade with anyone of their choice. I'll gladly stand up with you to combat theft of anything, by anyone, at any time. Tariffs are a really stupid tactic. Find another "solution" and I'll join forces with you.

Show me one that is effective in the real world and I'll join you.

 

[MegaPoke]

We definitely need more tariff threads.

 

[Syskatine]

Oh, I forgot. You don't care about anything but punishing China for stealing your company's battery technology. Never mind. My questions are not pertinent to your revenge factor.

Well, well, well. I was unaware of this. So let me get this straight. Tell me at which point I'm wrong.

1. China is a communist, authoritarian country with state-supported businesses in competition with our businesses.

2. They have no regard or respect for private property rights.

3. But they have such awful poverty, they can provide cheap labor without labor standards, minimum wage, or good living conditions.

4. So am American business is going to take advantage of cheap labor and profit from it a communist, authoritarian regime with no regard for property rights.

5. China, predictable, steals the American company's technology.

6. Now we're supposed to rescue the American business?

Maybe they shouldn't have lined their own pockets by moving jobs away from Americans and giving them to commies? Just a thought.

You seem to only care about profiting from those who would sell you stolen merchandise or profit off the backs of illegal labor that you can further oppress by paying reduced wages to.

Shouldn't your business have stayed out of China and not tried to profit from slave labor?

 

[Ponca Dan]

Show me one that is effective in the real world and I'll join you.

I have told you before. There is a group called the World Trade Organization, comprised of countries that seek freer trade with each other. It has proven to be very profitable for the countries involved. China begged - literally begged - to be admitted. The WTO reluctantly accepted them into the group. China instituted market reforms, abandoning much of their authoritarian control over business, and the result was like a rocket ship took off. They went from one of the most impoverished people on the planet to the world's second largest economy in a matter of a few years (it's amazing how generally unfettered markets bring about results like that). China became a potential goldmine for investors and companies that wanted access to 1.3 billion newly middle class consumers, not to mention access to a labor force that would work cheaply. But all was not rosy. In some instances China cheated and duped some companies into willingly giving up their technological secrets, while ruthlessly stealing battery technology from yours. They deserve to pay. No one argues about that.

The idea that tariffs are an appropriate solution is dead wrong. Tariffs are a tax against the people of the country imposing them, not a tax on the thieving country. American tariffs might hurt China, but what seems to be missing from your solution is they hurt innocent Americans as well. You seem to be of the notion that all American consumers are willing participants with the Chinese, so you are content to punish them as well. But most Americans are not buying stolen goods, and they are being taxed anyway. And many American producers are being devastated by reciprocal tariffs China has out on them. And those people have NOTHING to do with China stealing technology. The tariffs work to punish everybody for the actions of a few.

If China is stealing technology from American companies it is almost certainly stealing from companies from other WTO countries. Surely they are as furious as you are. The appropriate action is to take the case to the WTO, form a coalition of partners to threaten China with expulsion from the WTO if the theft doesn't stop immediately. Fine the Chinese government a suitable amount to assure they feel the pain, and tell them if they don't pay they will be expelled, China will be on the outside looking in. By doing that no innocent person is swallowed up in the dragnet.

If the USA insists on going it alone China will recognize it still has access to the rest of the world. It's already taking steps to wean itself from America's tit. The tariffs will just hasten the departure. Did you know Cadillac sells more cars in China than in America? Buick is still alive today because China buys so many of their automobiles. As a reaction to Trump's tariffs China has raised tariffs on American automobiles, and lowered them on everybody else. How soon before American automakers lose market share to Volvo, and VW and Mercedes and BMW? Tariffs are a really stupid way to resolve the issue. In fact they won't resolve the issue. They never have. Both Obama and Bush tried tariffs and quickly realized they were costing more American jobs than they were saving. Using tariffs as revenge is just silly.

 

[Ostatedchi]

I have told you before. There is a group called the World Trade Organization,

What part of the word 'effective' did you not understand?

 

[Ostatedchi]

Shouldn't your business have stayed out of China and not tried to profit from slave labor?

Huh? Maybe you should stick to posting about things you know something about. Well, you couldn't do that because you'd just be a lurker.

 

[Bitter Creek]

No, what I care about is individuals having the freedom to trade with anyone of their choice. I'll gladly stand up with you to combat theft of anything, by anyone, at any time. Tariffs are a really stupid tactic. Find another "solution" and I'll join forces with you.

Oh, one other thing, your graph does not show that tariffs work. If the tariffs worked the trade deficit would be coming down.

You should tell China to play nice

I'm sure that they will once you tell them to

 

[Syskatine]

Huh? Maybe you should stick to posting about things you know something about. Well, you couldn't do that because you'd just be a lurker.

I'm not the one that had my shit stolen from china though. Tell us how to go profit from slave labor and instead get your shit stolen. That would seem to be your area of expertise?

 

[Ostatedchi]

I'm not the one that had my shit stolen from china though. Tell us how to go profit from slave labor and instead get your shit stolen. That would seem to be your area of expertise?

Please detail for me how the corporation I work for is exploiting Chinese labor. I'm all ears.

Or maybe, a Chinese national came to our corporation and stole intellectual property to take back to China.

 

[Syskatine]

Please detail for me how the corporation I work for is exploiting Chinese labor. I'm all ears.

Or maybe, a Chinese national came to our corporation and stole intellectual property to take back to China.

Why was a chinese national given access to the intellectual property? So ya'll did not move manufacturing to china?

 

[07pilt]

Please detail for me how the corporation I work for is exploiting Chinese labor. I'm all ears.

Or maybe, a Chinese national came to our corporation and stole intellectual property to take back to China.

Sounds like your company doesn't value its intellectual property all the much.

 

[Syskatine]

Please detail for me how the corporation I work for is exploiting Chinese labor. I'm all ears.

Or maybe, a Chinese national came to our corporation and stole intellectual property to take back to China.

In particular, please elaborate on "came to our corporation." Did he have a Frito-Lays delivery uniform on, pretending to service the vending machines and swiped the plans off the receptionist's desk?

 

[Ostatedchi]

Why was a chinese national given access to the intellectual property? So ya'll did not move manufacturing to china?

Nope. It was at a research facility. He was a PhD scientist.

 

[Ostatedchi]

Sounds like your company doesn't value its intellectual property all the much.

I'll remember that when you get robbed and you get blamed instead of the person who actually robbed you.

By your logic, she was asking for it was a valid rape defense.

 

[Pokeabear]

Sounds like your company doesn't value its intellectual property all the much.

ConocoPhillips, they get what they pay for.

 

[Syskatine]

Nope. It was at a research facility. He was a PhD scientist.

Think maybe we shouldn't do business with China?

 

[Syskatine]

By your logic, she was asking for it was a valid rape defense.

Well, yeah, if she's on her back naked with her ankles behind her ears that'd be a defense. Hello?

 

[Ponca Dan]

You should tell China to play nice

I'm sure that they will once you tell them to

China needs to understand it needs to play nice. American tariffs have not been a way to get them to do so. An international coalition of trading partners teaming together and applying appropriate threat is much more relevant. No one, including me, thinks theft is OK. The debate is over the proper enforcement mechanism.

But the revenge factor is unique to ostatedchi. Contrary to ostatedchi Trump has said repeatedly he has imposed tariffs in order to reduce the trade deficit. Switching trading partners from China to Vietnam will only change the country with which we have the deficit. That’s why ostatedchi’s chart is irrelevant.

Let’s suppose Trump continues to play hardball with the rest of the world, increasing the tariffs on an intermittent basis. How long do you think it will take before our trade deficit will turn around? If you are convinced the WTO can’t do it, give the rest of us a time frame as to when you think by using tariffs we can declare victory in the trade war. I’m not asking for a specific date, just a general time reference. Another year? Two? Five? Winning the trade war is supposed to be easy. What’s your timeframe for an easy victory?

 

[07pilt]

I'll remember that when you get robbed and you get blamed instead of the person who actually robbed you.

By your logic, she was asking for it was a valid rape defense.

The difference here is that nonconsensual sex is rape and there is no legal requirement for victim to do anything. Not the case with trade secrets.

 

[OUSOONER67]

OK, I’ll be patient. Can you tell me how patient I need to be? Upon initiating his original tariffs over a year ago, DJT assured us trade wars are easy to win. Like every other pronouncement the man makes he didn’t tell us how easy it would be, he just blurted out that they are easy. I thought “easy” would be a year or less. I was wrong, obviously. I’m hoping you might give me some guidance on an appropriate timeline. What’s your prognostication?

20 years of unfair Trade with China, your guess is as good as mine how long it will take.

 

[Ponca Dan]

20 years of unfair Trade with China, your guess is as good as mine how long it will take.

Many times over the last year I have asked people to explain to me in explicit detail what has been unfair about our trade with China. Mostly the answers have been generic boilerplate uninformed economic misunderstanding bordering on hogwash. Answers like "I'm not for free trade, I'm for fair trade." I honestly don't know what that means. What is considered to be "fair trade?" How do tariffs help bring about "fair trade?" How do tariffs bring an end to a trade deficit? What is the connection between tariffs and fair trade? Perhaps you could enlighten me?

 

[OUSOONER67]

Many times over the last year I have asked people to explain to me in explicit detail what has been unfair about our trade with China. Mostly the answers have been generic boilerplate uninformed economic misunderstanding bordering on hogwash. Answers like "I'm not for free trade, I'm for fair trade." I honestly don't know what that means. What is considered to be "fair trade?" How do tariffs help bring about "fair trade?" How do tariffs bring an end to a trade deficit? What is the connection between tariffs and fair trade? Perhaps you could enlighten me?

Google it. Thats what I did, I don't have time to do your homework for you.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Google it. Thats what I did, I don't have time to do your homework for you.

Well, if you googled it you already did my homework for me! Care to tell me what you found?

 

[OUSOONER67]

Google it. Thats what I did, I don't have time to do your homework for you.

Here ya go. Read it.

https://www.apnews.com/45fc97dce5fa4f33a1637e8a641bd233

 

[Sunburnt Indian]

President Obama signed our third "free" trade agreement with South Korea and assured us this time it's really gonna work.

The last I checked, there's one Ford dealer in South Korea. There's 1500 Kia and Hyundia dealers in the U. S. Now let's brag about the unmitigated brilliance of U. S. trade negotiators.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Here ya go. Read it.

https://www.apnews.com/45fc97dce5fa4f33a1637e8a641bd233

Thanks! That is s fascinating, although generic, dissertation on the problem. China joined the WTO and started cheating, and apparently the WTO seemed incapable of rectifying the situation. Perhaps America should exert pressure on the WTO to clean up its act. As I said earlier if China is screwung America it is surely screwing Germany and France and all the other WTO countries. It should be relatively easy to coalesce the injured parties into formative action, wouldn’t you agree? America going it alone tit for tat on the tariff front seems illogical.

At any rate I do appreciate that you provided the standard boilerplate argument on why we Americans should hate the Chinese.

I still don’t understand what tariffs are going to accomplish. If China buckled and says it will lower its tariffs to the same percentage as America, would that be a win for America? If the tariffs were the same but America continued to import more goods from China than it exports goods to them, would that not still create a trade deficit with China? So would that be considered “fair trade” and therefore would a trade deficit in that situation be acceptable? If America somehow managed to have a trade surplus with China would that not mean China would have a trade deficit with us? Should China be upset about such a trade deficit? If, as mercantilist philosophy preaches, a country is only a “winner” in trade with other countries when it exports more than it imports, how can that possibly work? If every country followed mercantilist economics wouldn’t there be unadulterated chaos, as each country jockeyed with every other country to come out on “top?”

I know I’ve overwhelmed you with my stupid questions, and they probably annoy the hell out of you. But I don’t know how to get you to see my point without asking pointed questions. Mercantilist economics are a 19th Century phenomenon that have been discarded as ridiculously unworkable as more countries around the world have labored toward creating truly free international trade. The Trump team’s bullying tactics will set back economic harmony by decades. And I don't think any of us want that.

 

[Sunburnt Indian]

Good questions, Ponca Dan. The WTO has been pretty much impotent concerning China.

 

[OUSOONER67]

Thanks! That is s fascinating, although generic, dissertation on the problem. China joined the WTO and started cheating, and apparently the WTO seemed incapable of rectifying the situation. Perhaps America should exert pressure on the WTO to clean up its act. As I said earlier if China is screwung America it is surely screwing Germany and France and all the other WTO countries. It should be relatively easy to coalesce the injured parties into formative action, wouldn’t you agree? America going it alone tit for tat on the tariff front seems illogical.

At any rate I do appreciate that you provided the standard boilerplate argument on why we Americans should hate the Chinese.

I still don’t understand what tariffs are going to accomplish. If China buckled and says it will lower its tariffs to the same percentage as America, would that be a win for America? If the tariffs were the same but America continued to import more goods from China than it exports goods to them, would that not still create a trade deficit with China? So would that be considered “fair trade” and therefore would a trade deficit in that situation be acceptable? If America somehow managed to have a trade surplus with China would that not mean China would have a trade deficit with us? Should China be upset about such a trade deficit? If, as mercantilist philosophy preaches, a country is only a “winner” in trade with other countries when it exports more than it imports, how can that possibly work? If every country followed mercantilist economics wouldn’t there be unadulterated chaos, as each country jockeyed with every other country to come out on “top?”

I know I’ve overwhelmed you with my stupid questions, and they probably annoy the hell out of you. But I don’t know how to get you to see my point without asking pointed questions. Mercantilist economics are a 19th Century phenomenon that have been discarded as ridiculously unworkable as more countries around the world have labored toward creating truly free international trade. The Trump team’s bullying tactics will set back economic harmony by decades. And I don't think any of us want that.

Sounds like you got it all figured out there Slick! Glad I could help!
So let me make sure I got this right, Orangeman bad, China good and is our friend, they love us and only want to be fair and do whats in our best interest?
Mean old orangeman bad, he pickin on poor lil China.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Sounds like you got it all figured out there Slick! Glad I could help!
So let me make sure I got this right, Orangeman bad, China good and is our friend, they love us and only want to be fair and do whats in our best interest?
Mean old orangeman bad, he pickin on poor lil China.

Wow! Is that really what you got out of all I wrote? Either my expository skills or your reading comprehension are seriously defective!

Let me try again. Trump declared an imposition of tariffs as a means to eliminate the trade deficit America experiences with the rest of the world. He explicitly pointed to China as the main bad actor. He said a trade war would be easy for America to win. While he publicly targeted China for his wrath he instituted tariffs on many countries, some of them our most trusted allies. He assured us that tariffs would reverse the growing deficit. A little over a year after the initial imposition of tariffs the trade deficit is bigger than ever. I have asked you and other supporters of the tariffs to please explain the lack of success. I was told I am being impatient. I asked at what point impatience should set in, is there a time when we all admit that Trump was wrong in his economic assessment. I have been told in the past that Trump is seeking fair trade, not free trade. I asked of what does fair trade consist. To this point neither you nor anyone else has offered an explanation. Which leaves me wondering if maybe, like me, you (the plural you, not you personally) don’t know what fair trade is either. In which case it seems to me the whole thing is s muddled mess. The trade deficit is up, not down, and the effort to achieve fair trade is not possible because no one knows what fair trade is. In this instance, yes, I say Trump is “bad” in that he’s instituted a flawed policy. He’s not picking on “poor lil Chiba,” he’s picking on Americans. I assume you have dismissed my questions en mass as not worthy of contemplation. Oh well, you aren’t the first. You get no cherry this time!.