Dean Heil, Anthony Collica Sign With OKRTC
- Thread starter thompsonja
- Start date
I really don't see this as a surprise. Maybe only that 2 Ohio kids are going to the OU RTC and not the Ohio State RTC.
We obviously don't have the money to retain our college guys after graduation and support their senior level goals. That's been apparent for a long time - JO & Austin Schafer are at Cornell, Jon Morrison is at Michigan, Josh Kindig is at UNC, Eddie Klimara is at Virginia. RTCs have created a free agency system with big market teams and small market teams. No one would be surprised if a kid took a larger scholarship to wrestle at another school or if a coach left for a rival team because they gave him a higher salary. This is basically the same thing.
What happens if Tom Brands offers to double Alex Dieringer's compensation to join the Iowa RTC? I would certainly understand if he left.
We obviously don't have the money to retain our college guys after graduation and support their senior level goals. That's been apparent for a long time - JO & Austin Schafer are at Cornell, Jon Morrison is at Michigan, Josh Kindig is at UNC, Eddie Klimara is at Virginia. RTCs have created a free agency system with big market teams and small market teams. No one would be surprised if a kid took a larger scholarship to wrestle at another school or if a coach left for a rival team because they gave him a higher salary. This is basically the same thing.
What happens if Tom Brands offers to double Alex Dieringer's compensation to join the Iowa RTC? I would certainly understand if he left.
I think this has a lot to do with Guerrero - for Dean at least. But it's a clear message we need to build the building and fund the rtc. I was wondering if we could build some apartments or even a dorm like facility in the new building? The biggest expense for a kid out of school is room and board. If you took the living quarters off the table, maybe it becomes a lot less expensive to fund guy's.
Just spit balling
Just spit balling
I think you could be right about Eric Guerrero and Dean, but whatever happened seems to have developed pretty quickly. Derek Fix told Pistols Firing 3 weeks ago that Dean would be wrestling at the US Open. And as recently as a couple of days before the US Open began, the OSU twitter account tweeted that Dean would be wrestling at 65 kg.
And I like your spit balling idea, we need more of that - people thinking creatively. But we are way way behind many schools when it comes to developing a strategy and incentives. Just one example - I read that the PSU club not only pays their athletes a salary, they also pay for their medical insurance as well.
The blue sky optimists won't like reading this, but our staff and administration have been outsmarted and outmaneuvered for years when it comes to RTCs and recognizing their impact on the college team. Maybe finishing 13th at nationals and now this will serve as a wake up call.
Wrassler, you are right. Coach Smith has some fantastic strengths, but he has demonstrated some very important weaknesses. One would be what has happened to the cowboy wrestling club over the last 10 years and his not being more assertive with the administration to keep pace with the programs that are now winning NCAA championships over the last 10 years. I hope that we catch up but much of this will be up to Coach Smith, the administration and all cowboy wrestling fans ( we need more).
They have been outmaneuvered by programs with larger followings and a much stronger donor base. For as good as we are and have been we have a small following and an even smaller significant donor base.
A healthy thriving RTC boils down to one thing... money. Sure the staff could be more visionary and fundraise to a specific plan/goal but it's going to be an uphill battle without a little luck from one of our power donors.
Find a chair and grab a cup of coffee because this one is long...
I disagree with that take. It essentially gives the coaching staff & the administration a pass for the current state of things. I have high expectations for our program and I think it's fair to expect we are working hard (and smart!) to make things better. And for what it's worth, I will support the team no matter what.
OSU wrestling has a small following? Really? Maybe when compared to Iowa, PSU, and tOSU. But we don't have a small following. We finished 7th in home attendance this year, not 27th. Take a look.
https://news.theopenmat.com/blog/20...ord-number-programs-hit-1000-2000-milestones/
How many of the schools below us on that list have more than 1 senior level athlete (Alex) competing for their RTC? A lot. And that's just home attendance, I'm sure we have many fans across the country. I don't live in Oklahoma and I've never been to a home dual. But I would contribute to the RTC. No one has ever asked.
You say we've been outmaneuvered by teams with larger followings and stronger donor bases. You mean like the long time wrestling powerhouse NC State? They were irrelevant before Pat Popolizio took over. He gave an interview just 2 years ago saying John Smith told him he was crazy to think his program was ready to finish top 10 at nationals that year. Here it is, take a listen.
https://www.flowrestling.org/video/5609573-john-smith-told-pat-popolizio-he-was-crazy
Fast forward to this year, NC State finished tied for 4th at nationals (we tied for 13th), their 197 won a national title even though he wasn't a top 100 recruit (we had no semifinalists), they have World Team member Gwiaz that owns a bronze medal (we haven't placed anyone on a World Team since 2012), they just signed Duke heavy Jacob Kasper to their RTC for 97 kg (we just lost Dean & Anthony to go along with JO & Austin), and they are listed as having the RTC with the 3rd most assets (yet somehow we turned into the poor stepchild). Pat started with far less resources than available to OSU and he basically built that program up from nothing.
Of course money is the big driver for the RTCs, that's obvious (some creative thinking would help too). So then why haven't our coaches and administration made it a priority to raise money for the last 10 years? Where is the strategy, marketing plan, website, social media presence, Board of Directors, fan solicitations, raffles, key donor list? Take a look at Iowa's latest update by comparison, at least they are energized and actively working toward something.
https://www.hawkeyewrestlingclub.com/inner-circle-annoucement/
You say the staff could be "more visionary" and fundraise to a specific plan. That implies that there is a vision. Can you elaborate on what that is? Because I see no evidence there is one. The old adage "no one plans to fail, they fail to plan" comes to mind. In fact, if I didn't know better, I'd think Derek's interview with Pistols Firing took place back in 2004. He referred to senior level athletes that aspire to win World & Olympic medals as "work out partners". Better than calling them sparring partners I suppose. He said Alex has a lot of partners to wrestle, but ignored the fact that it's the college wrestlers that don't have any senior guys to learn from and make them better. Who pushes Derek White in our room? On the Flo footage I see him drilling with Zeke Jordan sometimes. Derek Fix also didn't make any comments about having a plan to retain our guys post graduation.
Back in a 2014 interview, Chance Marstellar was asked why he chose OSU. He said the key for him was something Coach Smith said - that OSU had placed a wrestler on the Olympic team in 18 of the 20 contested Olympics dating back to 1924 (the 1952 and 2000 teams had an OSU coach, so we were actually represented in all the modern games). What do you think we tell today's recruits? Pat Popolizio is a terrific guy and very honorable. If he wasn't, I would be very nervous that he might have Daniel Kerkvliet's home phone number.
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Wrassler, very good post and you went into much more detail of our issues. My post wasn't meant to look at and dissect all the issues within our wrestling program or the failure to push our RTC to keep up with competition. It also wasn't aimed at people like you or our avid supporters.
It was simply to point out that we are hamstrung to a degree. We are limited in sheer numbers of followers and donors. We are limited from a overall university donor base let alone wrestling specific. We are limited with the what has become the weakest major conference in college wrestling and yes we are limited in that our coaching staff who has proven to be one of the best if not the best folkstaff in the country has neglected the RTC or failed to make plans and take action to keep up and as a result have been passed by.
It sounds like from an AD level we are setting the stage to kickoff fundraising for our program which is great news but it won't be easy. Now we need someone on our staff to set the vision and lay out the path and plan in which to get us back to the top of the sport.
It was simply to point out that we are hamstrung to a degree. We are limited in sheer numbers of followers and donors. We are limited from a overall university donor base let alone wrestling specific. We are limited with the what has become the weakest major conference in college wrestling and yes we are limited in that our coaching staff who has proven to be one of the best if not the best folkstaff in the country has neglected the RTC or failed to make plans and take action to keep up and as a result have been passed by.
It sounds like from an AD level we are setting the stage to kickoff fundraising for our program which is great news but it won't be easy. Now we need someone on our staff to set the vision and lay out the path and plan in which to get us back to the top of the sport.
Timely discussion. Lots of ground to be made up.
https://www.hawkeyewrestlingclub.com/inner-circle-annoucement/
https://www.hawkeyewrestlingclub.com/inner-circle-annoucement/
https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/6197645-us-open-champ-austin-schafer-to-the-okrtc
We gotta start doing something to change this.
We gotta start doing something to change this.
Some great posts in this thread. It goes without saying that RTCs are now a "must have" for many top tier recruits along with modern facilities and great coaching. Having access to former elite collegiate wrestlers on a regular basis has been a huge advantage to programs with an associated RTC. For the post-college graduate, knowing that you can stay locally and be funded while you perform at the int'l level is important in the decision making process on where to attend college. You know other coaches are using it against you.
As Wrassler17 said, the problem is a failure to plan. So get together and plan. Fans should be asking for a meeting with the AD and coaches to understand their vision of how the RTC supports Cowboy wrestling, and then go fund it like the Hawkeyes are doing. Wouldn't it be nice for fans to endow one RTC wrestler a year? Or two? The positive outcome that fans can make toward your favorite team has its own rewards when you succeed.
I know my post comes across as being a cheerleader, but our community is small, and I support anything that strengthens it. I can't believe with a vision and plan that OSU cannot find a couple large donors for a worthy cause.
As Wrassler17 said, the problem is a failure to plan. So get together and plan. Fans should be asking for a meeting with the AD and coaches to understand their vision of how the RTC supports Cowboy wrestling, and then go fund it like the Hawkeyes are doing. Wouldn't it be nice for fans to endow one RTC wrestler a year? Or two? The positive outcome that fans can make toward your favorite team has its own rewards when you succeed.
I know my post comes across as being a cheerleader, but our community is small, and I support anything that strengthens it. I can't believe with a vision and plan that OSU cannot find a couple large donors for a worthy cause.
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I blame Micco.
It's clear to me now that he is behind this.
It's clear to me now that he is behind this.
I was told RTC $$$$ is a a very real deal going against us right now by a somebody who would know first hand of this. It’s almost a bidding war for the elite elite recruits who will listen to the after you are done here and join our RTC program recruiting pitch
Of course it is. We will land most of the elite Oklahoma kids and our history will land us some others but not enough to be more than a couple times a decade team title threat moving forward. The kids we go after look at who is in the room to push them and what senior guys can mentor them and what opportunities are available to them post grad.
The tough thing we have to realize is OhSt, Iowa and PSU are distancing themselves in this regard and the even next tier of programs are getting a head start on us. Look at what NCSt, UNC, AZSt, and Wisconsin are doing.
Just a "coincidence" that three storied tOSU guys join the Ohio RTC immediately upon graduation. RTCs and college programs are like a glove and hand.
How is it illegal? They are just like any other college graduate, and can seek employment anywhere they choose. The NCAA cannot limit where you go to work after college. As long as there is no quid pro quo, then it isn't illegal, and I'm pretty sure there are no guarantees being given. A guarantee would be, "if you come here, we'll give you $60k a year at the RTC for a minimum of three years." That isn't happening in my estimation because it would be stupid for any coach to promise that. That's illegal. All you have to do is point out that the additional advantages of coming to xyz university include an opportunity to join a great and well funded RTC if you merit it. See former school wrestlers at the RTC for an understanding of that.
Where I think a gray area exists is that I'm not so sure there is enough arms length transactions going on between the college program and the RTC. It seems a little close to me, but certainly within the current rules. I don't think any rules are being broken, just that the lines between where one entity ends and the next begins seems to be blurry at times. The opinion from the college coach as to who is offered to join the RTC carries a ton of weight, if not 100% weight, even though they are separate entities.
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It absolutely is a grey area and that's being polite. Now much like other major sports the teams who choose not to utilize this grey area are going to be left behind.
If more enforcement gets talked about the coaches and programs will just cover their tracks a little better.
If more enforcement gets talked about the coaches and programs will just cover their tracks a little better.
our football team will now provide the opportunity post grad to join the gameday staff as ambassadors
at a robust 5k a home game
at a robust 5k a home game
Couple of thoughts regarding the tOSU signings. The first is good for Bo Jordan signing to coach rather than compete. Injuries throughout his college career robbed us of seeing just how good he could have been. By all accounts, he seems to be a terrific young man that got his degree, raised a family, and continued to compete with major injuries for 4 years.
The second point is what can be inferred from tOSU's incoming recruiting class. They signed 8 top 100 kids (plus others that are weight class ranked). 3 of them are in the top 15, and 6 are in the top 37. That seems to imply that top recruits Snyder, NATO, and Jordan were all on fairly large scholarships, maybe even close to full rides. Why is that important? Because the argument against the RTC model is that elite kids are accepting much smaller scholarships, knowing they will get paid after graduation by the RTC to recoup their tuition costs. If true, this would be a way to circumvent the 9.9 scholarship limit. Of course, PSU is thought to be doing this. They graduate only one top recruit in Retherford, plus the lower ranked McCutcheon (both in state kids). Yet they signed 7 of the top 34. 3 of them are top 12, and 6 are top 22 (5 in total are out of state). Two of them may defer a year, but still the numbers are hard to make sense of. You have the PSU fans say kids take less to wrestle for Cael or that they're on some kind of academic scholarship. Then you have Tom Brands say publically that top recruits cost money (scholarships) and that Iowa plays by the rules - meaning some schools don't.
The Flo guys said a few months back that no one wants to talk on record right now because it could hurt wrestling. But they seemed to think the story would break at some point.
The second point is what can be inferred from tOSU's incoming recruiting class. They signed 8 top 100 kids (plus others that are weight class ranked). 3 of them are in the top 15, and 6 are in the top 37. That seems to imply that top recruits Snyder, NATO, and Jordan were all on fairly large scholarships, maybe even close to full rides. Why is that important? Because the argument against the RTC model is that elite kids are accepting much smaller scholarships, knowing they will get paid after graduation by the RTC to recoup their tuition costs. If true, this would be a way to circumvent the 9.9 scholarship limit. Of course, PSU is thought to be doing this. They graduate only one top recruit in Retherford, plus the lower ranked McCutcheon (both in state kids). Yet they signed 7 of the top 34. 3 of them are top 12, and 6 are top 22 (5 in total are out of state). Two of them may defer a year, but still the numbers are hard to make sense of. You have the PSU fans say kids take less to wrestle for Cael or that they're on some kind of academic scholarship. Then you have Tom Brands say publically that top recruits cost money (scholarships) and that Iowa plays by the rules - meaning some schools don't.
The Flo guys said a few months back that no one wants to talk on record right now because it could hurt wrestling. But they seemed to think the story would break at some point.
Let's take these two one at a time.
I like Tom Brands. He's a great coach, but he hasn't been the greatest strategist and tactician as program leader until recently. He was caught flat-footed when the landscape changed on how recruiting needed to go in order to compete. You need top ten guys nowadays or you're dust. Kids are more advanced coming out of high school than they used to be, and so diamonds in the rough are rarer than real diamonds. I also think he gives more to the studs than Cael does. Some say because Cael is promising other financial things, but I don't sense that to be true. Cael is a great salesman, and is pulling in all the benefits into his pitch. I know no one believes that, but I really do.
I believe the RTC money thing is overblown. I think the problem is more related to how close the college team (both coaches and wrestlers) can get to the RTC. As a management consultant, I don't like the blurred org chart lines. It makes for unfortunate conflicts of interest, even those that may be innocent. I withhold judgment on that. As for the Flo story and their belief that the story would break, I'm not sure anyone wants to go there. REAL money is now flowing into the sport. REAL money. It is supporting many more top tier guys than ever before, and allowing for more coaching openings than ever before. Salaries for athletes and coaches is rising. Do we really want to rock that boat? Or stay silent and compete with our own RTC? That is the question you and everyone else needs to answer, because osu2082 is correct, if you don't beef up your RTC, you're going to get left behind because I don't think even if the NCAA got involved that it would take away the advantage of a top flight RTC.
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Hold on tight because this is a lot of info, but it’s something you may be interested in.
I saw the PSU article the other day on Twitter and all the guys going to OU and thought it would have this board a little fired up, so I thought I’d come in check it out and give a little insight on the subject.
Please use some discretion on how you use this information because as most of you know this whole subject of $ in RTC’s and recruiting is sort of a shady topic. I’m sure some of you have seen this video.
https://www.flowrestling.org/video/6034810-frl-short-ncaa-cheaters-verbal-haters-have-us-fired-up
Here’s sort of the situation as I understand it with this topic and the Cowboy RTC. I’ll try to distinguish what I know as fact vs. what are personal thoughts and inferences. Most of this info comes straight direct sources and things I’ve seen firsthand. Varying sources on all the info, but all coaches, wrestlers, that sort of thing or me just seeing it first-hand.
This part is a mix of both my inferences and things I’ve been told or seen directly. Yes, without a doubt the Cowboy RTC is a little behind the 8 ball in how they’re doing things. They should’ve planted their flag much earlier as the RTC at OSU and need to get more going financially. They also need to market it better. They need a website and I believe they know that and are trying to figure out ways to do it. You may have noticed, but they’re starting to do more with social media, and they’re doing some other things to move the needle a little in that regard, so again it’s not perfect, but at least we’re seeing something.
They are doing a very, very, very good job in the department of using what the RTC legitimately allows them to do in getting the right guys working in the room and developing relationships with them and developing them as wrestlers. And I really can’t emphasize more how good a job. This part they can do as a legitimate function of an RTC that is valid and positive and not the shady stuff everyone’s talking about in promising them jobs and that sort of thing after college. They can have anyone in that room and at practices that is from within 250 miles of Stillwater and that meets any these qualifications here.
http://content.themat.com/CoachesCorner/RTC-criteria.pdf
Names that includes that he can have in that room working with AD, Daton, Joe Smith, Kaid Brock, etc…include Carter Young, Dustin Plott, Konner Doucet, Luke Surber, and any other kid in the state of Oklahoma. You also may want to go google how far away from Stillwater Allen, TX is and remember that 3 of the baddest brothers around are within the distance to come work out with the RTC. As are the rest of the kids in the best high school wrestling program in the state of Texas. You’ll notice Brown tags OSU Wrestling in this tweet from their state FS tournament.
https://twitter.com/NittyGrittyGold/status/993237312871043072
From a recruiting standpoint that’s obviously very beneficial for those kids to be able to come in the room, but let’s also realize Fix is a pretty darn good youth coach. When you think about what he did with Daton it’s not crazy to think he could build up some local talent that right now doesn’t look like they’ll be blue-chips. That is how they have it focused with Fix working more with that side of things and the other staff working with Alex and even Daton and the college guys. Fix does a lot of networking, working with the youth kids, etc… while the other guys are working to make Alex and the Juniors and U23 guys world team members.
Again, all that’s completely legitimate and allowed and I can tell you with confidence they’re doing great in working that angle of it.
On the $ topic.
I don’t know the in-depth financials of the Cowboy RTC. I’m not going to pretend to. I would guess they don’t have a big bank roll. I know it’s nothing comparative to the NLWC. I’ve been told enough to know that they could use some cash for sure. As much as some say marketing, not having a website, and that sort of thing is an issue, it definitely is, I also think you may be overestimating what they would receive from it. If you're local and attend many matches you know. We don't seem to have a very large fan base that's especially passionate about wrestling. OU/Iowa, etc... is a good draw, but most others only get maybe 1,000 people and that's being generous. They probably get more funds from wooing big money donors than they would crowdfunding and right now they're trying to use what funds they do have on the guys they have in the room and developing them vs. keeping/bringing in senior level guys.
That doesn’t necessarily mean there’s not an after-college option in Stillwater for these blue chips from recruiting perspective and again it’s not something they sell to these kids in the recruiting process because that’s wrong, but here’s sort of how it all breaks out.
Some of you probably know, but Titan Mercury was/is John’s baby. He was one of the main guys from the start and is connected to everyone there. Besides maybe the directors and the big money donors he has more influence over that than anyone. Therefore, when a guy like Alex Dieringer wants to continue to work in Stillwater after graduation John can pretty easily walk right over to those guys with very few questions and get the money to make sure Alex is compensated pretty well. Moreso than others with TMWC. I don’t know exactly what Alex is paid comparative to a NLWC team member, but I would assume it’s about the same. I know he’s not exactly struggling to eat or anything. If you notice there are no Titan Mercury guys with the NLWC, so they get no support from TMWC, even though Logan Stieber is with both the Ohio RTC and Titan Mercury, Thomas Gilman the Hawkeye WC and TMWC, Dieringer with TMWC and the Cowboy RTC, etc…. And again, John has more power and influence with Titan Mercury than anyone and is pretty easily able to get money from them to make sure his wrestlers that decide to stick around Stillwater are paid if they want to stay around and John wants them there.
Add to that the Nike Wrestling Rep is Chris Bahl, an OSU guy, if you’re not aware Dieringer is sponsored and paid by Nike and OSU has an in there that no one else does.
So because of that influence if John has if he wants a kid staying in Stillwater he can go to TMWC, get the money and keep them in Stillwater as long as they want to be there too.
This is my opinion and I’ve seen it said here, but I would argue why you’re seeing Dean and others moving to Norman is definitely Eric Guerrero. Eric was Dean’s recruiter and him leaving IMO as much of the reason for Dean falling off this year as anything else. Not shocked we’re not trying to bring back Schafer even with his recent success. If you remember he had some discipline issues in college. Jon Morrison had actually stopped wrestling and moved to Maryland and worked for a bit before getting back into wrestling and going to Michigan. Klimara has been in Stillwater a lot and may actually be coming back. I will add to that that Eric Guerrero was a major recruiting liability. Great coach, awful recruiter. If you’ve ever met him you know why I’m sure.
I think their biggest issues currently is actually just setting up a website and getting things moving on that front to kind of establish and market themselves to better establish the image of their RTC. Last I talked to them on that front they were just going through the proper processes to make sure they were doing everything legally and setting it all up correctly so they could start taking donations.
Talent wise with what they have in the room and with AD they aren’t really behind many RTC’s besides PSU and tOSU and that’s just because of the guys on the teams or that are about to graduate at those schools. And most of the OSU guys heading to other RTC's right now wouldn't change that much.
I saw the PSU article the other day on Twitter and all the guys going to OU and thought it would have this board a little fired up, so I thought I’d come in check it out and give a little insight on the subject.
Please use some discretion on how you use this information because as most of you know this whole subject of $ in RTC’s and recruiting is sort of a shady topic. I’m sure some of you have seen this video.
https://www.flowrestling.org/video/6034810-frl-short-ncaa-cheaters-verbal-haters-have-us-fired-up
Here’s sort of the situation as I understand it with this topic and the Cowboy RTC. I’ll try to distinguish what I know as fact vs. what are personal thoughts and inferences. Most of this info comes straight direct sources and things I’ve seen firsthand. Varying sources on all the info, but all coaches, wrestlers, that sort of thing or me just seeing it first-hand.
This part is a mix of both my inferences and things I’ve been told or seen directly. Yes, without a doubt the Cowboy RTC is a little behind the 8 ball in how they’re doing things. They should’ve planted their flag much earlier as the RTC at OSU and need to get more going financially. They also need to market it better. They need a website and I believe they know that and are trying to figure out ways to do it. You may have noticed, but they’re starting to do more with social media, and they’re doing some other things to move the needle a little in that regard, so again it’s not perfect, but at least we’re seeing something.
They are doing a very, very, very good job in the department of using what the RTC legitimately allows them to do in getting the right guys working in the room and developing relationships with them and developing them as wrestlers. And I really can’t emphasize more how good a job. This part they can do as a legitimate function of an RTC that is valid and positive and not the shady stuff everyone’s talking about in promising them jobs and that sort of thing after college. They can have anyone in that room and at practices that is from within 250 miles of Stillwater and that meets any these qualifications here.
http://content.themat.com/CoachesCorner/RTC-criteria.pdf
Names that includes that he can have in that room working with AD, Daton, Joe Smith, Kaid Brock, etc…include Carter Young, Dustin Plott, Konner Doucet, Luke Surber, and any other kid in the state of Oklahoma. You also may want to go google how far away from Stillwater Allen, TX is and remember that 3 of the baddest brothers around are within the distance to come work out with the RTC. As are the rest of the kids in the best high school wrestling program in the state of Texas. You’ll notice Brown tags OSU Wrestling in this tweet from their state FS tournament.
https://twitter.com/NittyGrittyGold/status/993237312871043072
From a recruiting standpoint that’s obviously very beneficial for those kids to be able to come in the room, but let’s also realize Fix is a pretty darn good youth coach. When you think about what he did with Daton it’s not crazy to think he could build up some local talent that right now doesn’t look like they’ll be blue-chips. That is how they have it focused with Fix working more with that side of things and the other staff working with Alex and even Daton and the college guys. Fix does a lot of networking, working with the youth kids, etc… while the other guys are working to make Alex and the Juniors and U23 guys world team members.
Again, all that’s completely legitimate and allowed and I can tell you with confidence they’re doing great in working that angle of it.
On the $ topic.
I don’t know the in-depth financials of the Cowboy RTC. I’m not going to pretend to. I would guess they don’t have a big bank roll. I know it’s nothing comparative to the NLWC. I’ve been told enough to know that they could use some cash for sure. As much as some say marketing, not having a website, and that sort of thing is an issue, it definitely is, I also think you may be overestimating what they would receive from it. If you're local and attend many matches you know. We don't seem to have a very large fan base that's especially passionate about wrestling. OU/Iowa, etc... is a good draw, but most others only get maybe 1,000 people and that's being generous. They probably get more funds from wooing big money donors than they would crowdfunding and right now they're trying to use what funds they do have on the guys they have in the room and developing them vs. keeping/bringing in senior level guys.
That doesn’t necessarily mean there’s not an after-college option in Stillwater for these blue chips from recruiting perspective and again it’s not something they sell to these kids in the recruiting process because that’s wrong, but here’s sort of how it all breaks out.
Some of you probably know, but Titan Mercury was/is John’s baby. He was one of the main guys from the start and is connected to everyone there. Besides maybe the directors and the big money donors he has more influence over that than anyone. Therefore, when a guy like Alex Dieringer wants to continue to work in Stillwater after graduation John can pretty easily walk right over to those guys with very few questions and get the money to make sure Alex is compensated pretty well. Moreso than others with TMWC. I don’t know exactly what Alex is paid comparative to a NLWC team member, but I would assume it’s about the same. I know he’s not exactly struggling to eat or anything. If you notice there are no Titan Mercury guys with the NLWC, so they get no support from TMWC, even though Logan Stieber is with both the Ohio RTC and Titan Mercury, Thomas Gilman the Hawkeye WC and TMWC, Dieringer with TMWC and the Cowboy RTC, etc…. And again, John has more power and influence with Titan Mercury than anyone and is pretty easily able to get money from them to make sure his wrestlers that decide to stick around Stillwater are paid if they want to stay around and John wants them there.
Add to that the Nike Wrestling Rep is Chris Bahl, an OSU guy, if you’re not aware Dieringer is sponsored and paid by Nike and OSU has an in there that no one else does.
So because of that influence if John has if he wants a kid staying in Stillwater he can go to TMWC, get the money and keep them in Stillwater as long as they want to be there too.
This is my opinion and I’ve seen it said here, but I would argue why you’re seeing Dean and others moving to Norman is definitely Eric Guerrero. Eric was Dean’s recruiter and him leaving IMO as much of the reason for Dean falling off this year as anything else. Not shocked we’re not trying to bring back Schafer even with his recent success. If you remember he had some discipline issues in college. Jon Morrison had actually stopped wrestling and moved to Maryland and worked for a bit before getting back into wrestling and going to Michigan. Klimara has been in Stillwater a lot and may actually be coming back. I will add to that that Eric Guerrero was a major recruiting liability. Great coach, awful recruiter. If you’ve ever met him you know why I’m sure.
I think their biggest issues currently is actually just setting up a website and getting things moving on that front to kind of establish and market themselves to better establish the image of their RTC. Last I talked to them on that front they were just going through the proper processes to make sure they were doing everything legally and setting it all up correctly so they could start taking donations.
Talent wise with what they have in the room and with AD they aren’t really behind many RTC’s besides PSU and tOSU and that’s just because of the guys on the teams or that are about to graduate at those schools. And most of the OSU guys heading to other RTC's right now wouldn't change that much.
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From a numbers perspective (and talent could easily be argued) we are well behind PSU, OHSt and Iowa. We are soon to also be behind in numbers and support to places like AzSt, Mich, Corn, NCSt, UNC and possibly OU.
We need a well defined plan and goal to catch up or the gap will continue to widen.
Thanks
I didn't see him or any other PSU guys on the site, so I thought maybe it was a thing where they they didn’t have NLWC guys.
http://tmwc1.com/teams/
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Numbers they do for sure, but who's the best guy at Iowa? Probably Spencer Lee or Thomas Gilman? Daton may be better than both of them and they don't have any big guys even comparable to AD.
PSU and tOSU are all carried by their college guys and in tOSU's case their recent grads.
Also I personally don't believe numbers is necessarily a positive thing considering physically how small our room is and the fact it takes attention away from the college kids. I understand it makes for better workout partners, but it also takes the coaches time and puts it on the older guys instead of developing the college kids. Just my opinion.
I agree they do need a clearer plan for people to get behind though
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Here’s a story from March with him listed as both. Don’t know why no one is listed. Strange.
https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestli...h/11/David-Taylor-named-to-USA-World-Cup-Team
Numbers do two things. It gives high level HS recruits more diverse and senior level guys to work with as often as they want to which is massive in the recrutiment of those types of recruits.
It also shows those recruits those programs/RTC's have the finances and ability to support several senior level guys.
I don’t disagree
With that OSU still landed the top 174 in this class, the #2/3 184, have the best HWT in next years class committed, and are stacked to the deck at the lower weights. I’ll also add that the best 197 in 2020 is a borderline lock and I like our odds with the best 165.
I believe there are mat time restrictions 'in season', but your overall point stands. What top prospect wouldn't want to spend 5 hours a week with DT or AD or Zain or Logan.
Fix, G, Wittlake, and DK are fantastic recruits but what is crazy is that isn't enough in a 3 year period to win NC's in today's environment.
Our 2018 recruiting class is ranked 18th. We aren't winning enough of the top end recruiting battles and a major reason is our lack of a well funded and thriving RTC. The hire of Fix was a good first step and he has began to make improvements but there is a ways to go and we are behind the front runners and it's hurting our chances to compete and win NC's.
Hasn't PSU been winning with that model?
Retherford was a senior this year. Nickal and Nolf juniors, Hall and Joseph a RS sophomore and sophomore.
Don't get me wrong, I'm still with you that the image of the RTC needs an overhaul, they need money, etc... and I know PSU has had a little more depth in their classes with Rasheed, Nevills, etc..., but really go back and look at it. They've had some classes where they've been outside the top 20. They've just been picking a few can't miss type recruits every year and winning with them.
Also John's always done a pretty good job of developing unheralded recruits into AA's, which can hopefully supplement for the lack of depth in these classes.
PSU has done it with loading up on top tier talent. Maybe early on was a tad different but they have been a runaway train the last few years landing elite HS talent. Their class rankings are below.
It isn't some secret we need to recruit better. The discussion is how to achieve that and what is separating PSU, OHSt and to a degree Iowa when trying to consistently recruit the best of the best? There are a few different factors but the major one is our RTC in comparison with theirs and all that goes with them.
2013: 3
2014: 1
2015: 18 (small class. Did land VJ)
2016: 2
2017: 2
2018: 1
2019: Will again likely be #1
This is what Flo shows their 2017 class and 5 year cycle as. That's where I had looked at it
#3 - Penn State
5 year cycle: #2, #18, #1, #6, #18
There are a lot of areas OSU needs to improve to get caught up in recruiting. Wrestling in OK needs to improve. Attendance needs to be better, facilities IMO are the biggest issue and as you're saying we need improvements to the RTC.
In general OSU just needs to get caught up on the wrestling arms race.
I'll add this and probably shouldn't say this on here, but here it goes.
Daton's changing the game at OSU in more ways than you probably realize.
Some of you probably know that Daton went on all of his recruiting trips in HS. Anywhere that wanted to have him out he went there and went through the process like any other recruit even with all his OSU ties. His parents stepped back and let him make his own decision and thankfully it ended up OSU. He was actually fairly close to going to PSU. His best friend outside of Gfeller is Mark Hall and that 's the main reason why he almost did. If that would've happened it's game over for anyone trying to compete with them.
That said once it was all said and done and he ended up at OSU he told his dad and some of the staff about the recruiting process with the other schools comparative to ours. What Cael does when they come out, how all that stuff goes and the conclusion was that ours sucked, especially compared to PSU's. Apparently Cael really finds out what their into, took them all out all out and played Pokemon with them, if they're into fishing they do that, whatever it is he does with them along with a bunch of other stuff that really ropes these kids in.
OSU was not doing a very good job in that department. Apparently it was just a very generic process that really wasn't very good. That lead to a lot of changes in how they do all of that. Tyler Caldwell has basically revamped that whole process to be a better model based on the feedback from Daton and other kids on the team. What will it do? I have no idea, they still don't have the resources of the other programs, but they did realize their recruiting process was an issue and have made some major changes.
Before about two years ago, I take Flo's recruiting rankings with a grain of salt. IMO, prior to that time, they placed too much focus on quantity of recruits in the top 100 instead of quality. As we've seen, quality is a major component to the success that PSU and tOSU have had in recent years at nationals. So while ASU and NCST may have had 7-8 guys in the top 100, only 1-2 of those were in the top 20. Teams like PSU were getting four top 100 recruits but three of those in the top 15.
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