CowboyRTC?

tom_v31

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I don’t think RTCs are going anywhere, I just see us getting further behind the other teams who are putting money and effort into there senior programs. I don’t see the problem with them. I see the stance we have taken is out of date. They are good for current athletes and for the growth of the sport.
 
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Wrassler17

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Based on the recent uptick in recruiting, I think we will have a very strong team over the next 5-6 years. Will it be enough to win a team title? I'm not sure, I hope so.

But looking at the long-term, it will be very difficult for us to regularly challenge for the title unless we embrace the RTC model.

Adapt or die.
 

west2east

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Mar 3, 2013
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Based on the recent uptick in recruiting, I think we will have a very strong team over the next 5-6 years. Will it be enough to win a team title? I'm not sure, I hope so.

But looking at the long-term, it will be very difficult for us to regularly challenge for the title unless we embrace the RTC model.

Adapt or die.
I agree and as most know compliance is all about interpretation.As long as you can explain how and why you interpret things that way.Other compliance offices obviously interpret things differently.Maybe itstime for to get some new blood into the compliance department
 

osu2082

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I don’t think RTCs are going anywhere, I just see us getting further behind the other teams who are putting money and effort into there senior programs. I don’t see the problem with them. I see the stance we have taken is out of date. They are good for current athletes and for the growth of the sport.
The problem is we have a HC and AD that are stringent rule followers, especially in regards to the NCAA . The RTC model, setup and function is a direct violation of several NCAA rules and if a similar setup was started in one of the two major revenue generating sports it would be shut down immediately.

Saying that, I think you are right that nothing surrounding them is going to change. The NCAA doesn’t care, they aren’t staffed or in a position to really monitor or regulate them and there is pressure from USA wrestling to keep them as they are. We will eventually need to find a way to grow and fund ours if we want to compete for national championships year in, year out,
 
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tom_v31

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RTCs help in the development of our own wrestlers. Better top end competition in the room. That’s how gable dominated for so long and that’s how penn state is doing it.
 

chasepollard

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The problem is we have a HC and AD that are stringent rule followers, especially in regards to the NCAA . The RTC model, setup and function is a direct violation of several NCAA rules and if a similar setup was started in one of the two major revenue generating sports it would be shut down immediately.

Saying that, I think you are right that nothing surrounding them is going to change. The NCAA doesn’t care, they aren’t staffed or in a position to really monitor or regulate them and there is pressure from USA wrestling to keep them as they are. We will eventually need to find a way to grow and fund ours if we want to compete for national championships year in, year out,
Would a letter to the NCAA asking to start one help?
 
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gyppoke

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To follow up on what Chase said. Why can’t we get the NCAA to commit in writing what is accepted and not accepted where RTC’s are concerned?
 
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osu2082

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Would a letter to the NCAA asking to start one help?
It could but I would suspect you wouldn’t get a real answer. You would get legal language about the policies in place to protect amateurism.

Let me put it another way. This RTC deal is like if KU, Duke, UNC and Kentucky set up n campus where they paid former players to continue playing basketball. Those professional paid players would be used to practice with, recruit and hang out with the amateur athletes in school.

Those schools would use the opportunity of getting to play with that professional team and get paid by them during their recruitment of amateur athletes.

The NCAA simply wouldn’t allow it but because it’s a non-revenue sport the NCAA has just failed to look into or regulate it.
 

Travis25

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Jan 14, 2020
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How much of it is Holder/Smith being rule followers and how much is it our limited budget and them prioritizing the new facility?

At their core, RTCs are just slush funds and we do not have anywhere near the funding that Iowa and Penn State have.
 

tom_v31

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In my opinion, which I know is probably the minority opinion, I feel a new facility is needed, but having higher level athletes and possibly more individual coaching is more needed. I don’t feel we need to have an Ohio state or Michigan size facility but an updated facility would be nice. We have shown that our coaching can keep us up with the top of the pack, but top level RTC athletes would put us in contention for a national championship year in and year out.
 

osu2082

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How much of it is Holder/Smith being rule followers and how much is it our limited budget and them prioritizing the new facility?

At their core, RTCs are just slush funds and we do not have anywhere near the funding that Iowa and Penn State have.
An new facility is totally separate from any funding for the RTC. We are actively seeking naming rights donors for a new wrestling only facility.

Technically the university and foundation can’t have any dealings with the RTC funds but of course we know that isn’t the case most places.

We have the ability to raise the $600k-800k or so to really amp up the RTC. That would allow us to bring in 4-6 highly regarded senior level guys. All that to say it isn’t the money that is stopping us from doing so.
 
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chasepollard

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It could but I would suspect you wouldn’t get a real answer. You would get legal language about the policies in place to protect amateurism.

Let me put it another way. This RTC deal is like if KU, Duke, UNC and Kentucky set up n campus where they paid former players to continue playing basketball. Those professional paid players would be used to practice with, recruit and hang out with the amateur athletes in school.

Those schools would use the opportunity of getting to play with that professional team and get paid by them during their recruitment of amateur athletes.

The NCAA simply wouldn’t allow it but because it’s a non-revenue sport the NCAA has just failed to look into or regulate it.
Put some more teeth in the letter (from our Attorney) that outlines EXACTLY what other RTC's are doing when asking permission.

Even outline them by name and function.

If there isn't a real answer, follow it up with another letter asking for an explicit answer. If still no answer, then we move forward with the RTC with the NCAA understanding that any sanction levied upon us will also be levied on the others. The caveat is we asked for permission and was given no guideline from the NCAA and would win in the court room.
 

OSUMatFan

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My experience is that you never win in a fight with a regulator. They still have enforcement authority over us in the future. It does seem that the larger athletic budgets do get away with more with the NCAA. At its face this seems like a violation. With that, if John says he is for it my check would be in the mail.
 

tom_v31

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In this situation, it’s act and then ask for forgiveness later. I promise, penn state isn’t quibbling over the legalese of this issue, nor is Iowa state, Cornell, Michigan, Ohio state... The plethora of talent we have, needs to be developed to contend for a championship. NOTHING will happen to the top teams in the
 

tom_v31

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Do you know why John became the coach?
I’m pretty sure he took the job because he is the GOAT and possibly, the best technician of all time as well as a superior coach. RTCs are the future and to Smith’s credit, he has done very well, despite his stance on RTCs
 

ionel

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Jan 5, 2008
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I’m pretty sure he took the job because he is the GOAT and possibly, the best technician of all time as well as a superior coach. RTCs are the future and to Smith’s credit, he has done very well, despite his stance on RTCs
Ahh … no. Chesbro was probably the best technical coach of his time, great dual record but could not beat Iowa in the tourney, kept coming in 2nd. Everyone was tired of 2nd so hired Seay. Seay figured to beat Iowa you had to do what Iowa was doing, he did, he beat them, he got caught and OSU put on probation. Smith & Monday were coming off Olympics and co-coached first year in the wake of the sanctions. Fast forward to the Brands Iowa era, there were (still are) plenty of coaches who knew what’s was going on and with a couple other programs. No one wants to turn another program in to the NCAA because wrestling is already in decline. Cael comes along and he is/was good enough as a coach to win (say 1 in every 4 years) without “bending the rules”/cheating we had a lot of parity then, but he raises it to whole new level. Now if you are Brands or one of the others do you complain that another coach is cheating more than you are or do you figure we just need to up our game? And yes I know some folks think “bending the rules” isn’t cheating and some folks think it’s only cheating if you get caught.

I am certain that the current President (although he is retiring next year) is not going to allow said “bending” approach at OSU. Don’t know as well but would expect the same from the current AD Holder. Do you think Holder ever has to look at his golf banners in GIA and think, well we got that one by cheating, I think not. Do you think he would allow such from any of his coaches? Same with Smith when he looks at his golds and banners that he knows they were won because he (& team) were the best and worked harder than anyone else. Pretty sure he has no desire after a great career to go out like Seay or put OSU thru that again. Now sure if the NCAA came out with clarity on the issue or with the movement toward paying athletes said it’s perfectly fine to pay undergrad wrestlers thru an endowed or otherwise funded RTC, then it’d be game on.
 
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tom_v31

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Ahh … no. Chesbro was probably the best technical coach of his time, great dual record but could not beat Iowa in the tourney, kept coming in 2nd. Everyone was tired of 2nd so hired Seay. Seay figured to beat Iowa you had to do what Iowa was doing, he did, he beat them, he got caught and OSU put on probation. Smith & Monday were coming off Olympics and co-coached first year in the wake of the sanctions. Fast forward to the Brands Iowa era, there were (still are) plenty of coaches who knew what’s was going on and with a couple other programs. No one wants to turn another program in to the NCAA because wrestling is already in decline. Cael comes along and he is/was good enough as a coach to win (say 1 in every 4 years) without “bending the rules”/cheating we had a lot of parity then, but he raises it to whole new level. Now if you are Brands or one of the others do you complain that another coach is cheating more than you are or do you figure we just need to up our game? And yes I know some folks think “bending the rules” isn’t cheating and some folks think it’s only cheating if you get caught.

I am certain that the current President (although he is retiring next year) is not going to allow said “bending” approach at OSU. Don’t know as well but would expect the same from the current AD Holder. Do you think Holder ever has to look at his golf banners in GIA and think, well we got that one by cheating, I think not. Do you think he would allow such from any of his coaches? Same with Smith when he looks at his golds and banners that he knows they were won because he (& team) were the best and worked harder than anyone else. Pretty sure he has no desire after a great career to go out like Seay or put OSU thru that again. Now sure if the NCAA came out with clarity on the issue or with the movement toward paying athletes said it’s perfectly fine to pay undergrad wrestlers thru an endowed or otherwise funded RTC, then it’d be game on.
I understand what you’re saying, you once bitten now twice shy. It is admirable how Smith sticks to his guns. I can’t ever fault him for that but is it truly braking a rule if no one adheres to it. They are actually doing rtc events, which I think is fantastic. Smith sort of reminds me of John wooden who felt that the coach actively recruiting is not principled. Yes, wooden is one of the greatest coaches of all time but his take on recruiting was out dated. Let’s make it clear, I am definitely not in the camp that feels coach smith is out of date, I see his ONLY over site is his stance on RTCs. To be able to stay competitive with big 10 teams, with less competitive competition and a weaker RTC, shows the man still has it, in my humble opinion.
 

ionel

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Jan 5, 2008
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but is it truly braking a rule if no one adheres to it
see Lance Armstrong, everyone in the Tour was doing it, he just did it better. If you are going to beat Cael /Penn State at it you'll have to do it (cheat) better. :(
 

tom_v31

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I get your point, but I think PEDs are a little more defined than the laws on RTCs as well as a little more dangerous but you make a good point.
 

Travis25

Recruit
Jan 14, 2020
37
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8
Our lack of a competitive RTC does not seem to be holding us back in recruiting. I think it is very possible that we sign the #1 class in the country in 20, 21, and 22. Is the concern more that we are not able to develop the talent we bring in as well as schools with strong RTCs?
 

osu2082

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Our lack of a competitive RTC does not seem to be holding us back in recruiting. I think it is very possible that we sign the #1 class in the country in 20, 21, and 22. Is the concern more that we are not able to develop the talent we bring in as well as schools with strong RTCs?
The lack of development is a concern as is the sustainability of this type of recruiting. Both concerns due to not having a RTC on the level of our competition.
 
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tom_v31

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If we don’t adapt, we WILL lose. It’s not if, it’s when. If we do things the way they have always been done it, then we have no shot in Heck to ever supersede where we are. The brits thought marching in a line in battle was noble we felt using the landscape to our advantage was useful, we won the war. I moved to Oklahoma so my boys could wrestle in a premier wrestling state. I would hate to see it become antiquated before they even have a chance.
 

tom_v31

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One last rant, I’m sorry for being that guy but I had to vent or I would explode.
Am I the only OKSTATE fan that is embarrassed that we don’t have Oklahoma represented at the RTC tournament. We don’t have two senior level wrestlers to rub together to even be in the conversation or be mentioned? Am I the only OKSTATE fan that is embarrassed to see it’s our top college athletes leave for greener pastures? Do we want to be relegated to being a feeder program? That will be our role, mark my words. The RTC programs aren’t going anywhere no matter how much the old guard stands in the way.
 
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Wrassler17

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There are a lot of pieces to the RTC topic, but strictly looking at recruiting and the college team...

A couple of years ago, I was pretty frustrated by our RTC stance and the impact it was seemingly having on recruiting. Now I'm more just puzzled by it. But whatever this coaching staff is saying & doing is working.

We had 2 very strong recruiting classes in 2014 & 2015. In 2016, we did not sign anyone in the top 40. In 2017 we had Daton #1 and G #15 (both in state guys). Then again for 2018 we had no top 40 verbals until just before signing week. Not great. Then Kerkvliet (2019 class) and Travis Wittlake both flipped in November. That gave us 2 Cadet world medalists (out of state) and was a preview of what the reshuffled coaching staff would deliver. We all know about the 2020 & 2021 classes.

This thread was started just before Jordan Williams committed. I did not have a good feeling about landing him. He's an in state guy, yes, but he's also a 2x Fargo champ who didn't seem to have strong connections to the program. For a long time I did not have a good feeling about AJ Ferrari either, another 2x Fargo winner and a Cadet medalist. Jakason Burks is an out of state Fargo champ. Victor Voinovich is a Fargo finalist, Trevor Mastro is a Pan Am champ, both east coast guys. All of them excellent freestylers.

Can we sustain that type of recruiting? I think a big part of it will be guys having freestyle success while in college (folkstyle too obviously). Daton made a Senior World Team. AJ just won Junior Nationals. And I think Travis and Dustin would have been strong favorites to win 74 kg & 79 kg.
 
Jan 25, 2020
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The problem is we have a HC and AD that are stringent rule followers, especially in regards to the NCAA . The RTC model, setup and function is a direct violation of several NCAA rules and if a similar setup was started in one of the two major revenue generating sports it would be shut down immediately.

Saying that, I think you are right that nothing surrounding them is going to change. The NCAA doesn’t care, they aren’t staffed or in a position to really monitor or regulate them and there is pressure from USA wrestling to keep them as they are. We will eventually need to find a way to grow and fund ours if we want to compete for national championships year in, year out,
Your first sentence kills it lol. Other than the armed forces schools I don't think your first sentence describes ANY coach of a top program in any sport. The goat included.
 

Wrassler17

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"The result was that by mixing part-time prospective student-athletes, redshirted student-athletes, club teams, open tournaments and coaching staff members who were themselves competing in national and international meets, the university gained substantial recruiting and competitive advantages over a period of several years."
Wow, I never read that before. Oh the irony. That's nothing compared to what's going on today. To use Chris Bono's words "it's the wild wild west".
 

ionel

2nd Team
Jan 5, 2008
543
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Wow, I never read that before. Oh the irony. That's nothing compared to what's going on today. To use Chris Bono's words "it's the wild wild west".
and why Penn St is doing so well, they took the Iowa etc game plan to another level, but I think John has shown he can recruit without cheating.
 

tom_v31

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It’s not cheating. You can expect Cael and company to utilize every option to become the best. Good for them. Whatever the ruling was in 1992, the landscape has completely changed since then. Following some outdated ruling reminds me of the English red coats who felt it was respectable and fair to March in a line to fight the Americans who fought behind trees. Three words: Adapt and change.
I think how RTCs started off, many believed that they would cause harm to the programs. But, it is an Avenue for wrestlers to earn a living. Even John likes the idea😉
 
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Wrassler17

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It’s not cheating. You can expect Cael and company to utilize every option to become the best. Good for them. Whatever the ruling was in 1992, the landscape has completely changed since then. Following some outdated ruling reminds me of the English red coats who felt it was respectable and fair to March in a line to fight the Americans who fought behind trees. Three words: Adapt and change.
I think how RTCs started off, many believed that they would cause harm to the programs. But, it is an Avenue for wrestlers to earn a living. Even John likes the idea😉
I didn't hear John's latest comments about RTCs, can you summarize what he said?

My impression (could be wrong) is that John isn't opposed to post grads getting paid. We had Alex, Derek & Eddie recently. We even had a non alum - Frank Perrelli about 6 years ago. I think John was (is) looking for oversight and some rules. The NCAA isn't involved and USA Wrestling isn't equipped to handle compliance. That's what prompted Bono's comments. It's also the reason John & Kolat pushed for the local sports club model over RTCs.

Reverting to the club model fell through, but USAW did update their guidelines effective 9/1/2019. For example, it's now explicitly against the rules to pay current college athletes (including gray shirts). So no more $1,500/day camp money or paid room & board (at least on paper).

I'm not sure how long you've been reading the forum, but some of this stuff has been discussed already. Here are a couple of threads you might want to check out. Some good discussion and posts...


 

ionel

2nd Team
Jan 5, 2008
543
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It’s not cheating. You can expect Cael and company to utilize every option to become the best. Good for them. Whatever the ruling was in 1992, the landscape has completely changed since then. Following some outdated ruling reminds me of the English red coats who felt it was respectable and fair to March in a line to fight the Americans who fought behind trees. Three words: Adapt and change.
I think how RTCs started off, many believed that they would cause harm to the programs. But, it is an Avenue for wrestlers to earn a living. Even John likes the idea😉
Are you being sarcastic, naïve, or do you actually know the rules have been changed?

Here's a hypothetical and considering there are only 9.9 scholarships allowed in wrestling: a coach offers a full ride to an out of state wrestler A and A accepts, later the coach sees a wrestler B same weight who might actually be better, coach goes back to A and tells him he wants to reduce the offer to 1/2 ride but "we will make up the difference ;) ;) after you are here," this allows the coach to get both wrestlers on 1/2 scholarships.

Is this just "utilizing the options" or actually against the rules?
 

tom_v31

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Whatever the freaking “rules”are/were, they are obviously not being enforced in the slightest. Plus, I don’t care about previous posts. OSU will fall behind if they don’t adapt. Maybe I’m reading too much into what John said/possibly implied. Forgive me, I hope that is going to happen.
 

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