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Bannon speaks

I've only read the first third. Got a few things to do before I can sit back down.

But I'm ecstatic at what I hear in that first third. Hopefully the rest of the article mirrors the beginning.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...47f8cf9b643_story.html?utm_term=.411dc847103c
Well, I'm the exact opposite of ecstatic. What does he call it? Economic nationalism? What does that even mean? As a libertarian free trader I'm for the free flow of all goods both into and out of the country. That's the only way to promote prosperity. Economic nationalism strikes me as another attempt at Mussolini-type economic fascism. Not good. Not good at all. As an economic policy it is doomed to failure, and will lead us down the road to serfdom.
 
Totally open trade is the ideal situation but that is not the world we live in.

Until our biggest competitors operate fairly and openly then a free trade economy will operate at a disadvantage. Economic nationalism means putting the interests of Americans first. I don't have a problem with that.

America for the most part has tried to be good business partners for the world but we've been getting screwed and it's time put an end to it.

Many of the countries that are taking advantage of us have total disdain for America. Trumpie don't play that game.
 
Economic nationalism strikes me as another attempt at Mussolini-type economic fascism. Not good. Not good at all. As an economic policy it is doomed to failure, and will lead us down the road to serfdom.

Good gawd, nothing like hyperbole squared, but thanks for playing the Mussolini, fascism, doomed/failure and serfdom cards.
 
Well, I'm the exact opposite of ecstatic. What does he call it? Economic nationalism? What does that even mean? As a libertarian free trader I'm for the free flow of all goods both into and out of the country. That's the only way to promote prosperity. Economic nationalism strikes me as another attempt at Mussolini-type economic fascism. Not good. Not good at all. As an economic policy it is doomed to failure, and will lead us down the road to serfdom.

Does that include jobs?

Where do you draw a line at the eating away of the middle and working class? Real question.
 
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Totally open trade is the ideal situation but that is not the world we live in.

Until our biggest competitors operate fairly and openly then a free trade economy will operate at a disadvantage. Economic nationalism means putting the interests of Americans first. I don't have a problem with that.

America for the most part has tried to be good business partners for the world but we've been getting screwed and it's time put an end to it.

Many of the countries that are taking advantage of us have total disdain for America. Trumpie don't play that game.
Please explain to me how American consumers buying foreign products at a cheaper price is hurting our economy.
 
Please explain to me how American consumers buying foreign products at a cheaper price is hurting our economy.

Fellow libertarian here. Not a financial expert by any stretch though. You may well be right but do you gave any thoughts as to why the stock market has reacted so positively to Trump?
 
Good gawd, nothing like hyperbole squared, but thanks for playing the Mussolini, fascism, doomed/failure and serfdom cards.
I specifically stated Mussolini in an attempt to avoid the "Hitler" tag. I specifically used the term "economic fascism" as a condemnation of the "economic" theory of fascism, where the government decides who are the economic winners and losers, as opposed to free people making choices without interference. My reference to "serfdom" was from the title of Hayek's book, "The Road to Serfdom," in which he argues there is no way government bureaucrats can have enough knowledge to "run" an economy. Economic fascists believed they could. Mussolini for a while was revered in the West because he got "the trains to run on time." Never mind the economy was contracting, and people were getting poorer, as they always do when the government assumes command and decides it knows more about what the people need than the people do. If you haven't read the book I strongly recommend it.
 
Fellow libertarian here. Not a financial expert by any stretch though. You may well be right but do you gave any thoughts as to why the stock market has reacted so positively to Trump?
Does that include jobs?

Where do you draw a line at the eating away of the middle and working class? Real question.

It is understandable why people so fear a free market. Free markets are unruly, sloppy, messy. Industries grow and contract as there are new innovations. People lose jobs. Other people gain jobs. It can be frightening. People clamor for the government to save them. Which it is more than happy to claim it will do. Unfortunately with each new edict from the government the individual loses a little more autonomy. Personal freedom is the sacrifice that must be made in exchange for the government's "aid." It is regrettable that far too many people are willing to make that sacrifice. "Sure," they say, you can have a little piece of my soul; just save my job! I'm incapable of taking care of myself!"

Are you familiar with Bastiat's essay, "That which is seen, and that which is unseen?" In it he points out that even when a government program is successful at achieving its goal, that is what you see. What you don't see, what is hidden from view, are the unintended consequences of the program.

For example, let's say Trump is successful in browbeating and threatening car manufacturers into building their cars in the good old USA. He saved hundreds or thousands of good manufacturing jobs. He's a hero! That's what you see. But what you don't see is the cars now cost a couple of thousands more dollars to buy, say $28K instead of the $26K. You had $28K that you had saved, and you were going to spend 26 in new car and 2 in a new sofa. What the bureaucrats (or the public at large) don't see is now you don't have a sofa, which is detrimental to the sofa industry. Trump! Save us! The damned sofa industry is gouging. That's the unintended consequence of the government's meddling, which is a feature of economic fascism

I will now step down off my soapbox and go to bed!
 
I specifically stated Mussolini in an attempt to avoid the "Hitler" tag. I specifically used the term "economic fascism" as a condemnation of the "economic" theory of fascism, where the government decides who are the economic winners and losers, as opposed to free people making choices without interference. My reference to "serfdom" was from the title of Hayek's book, "The Road to Serfdom," in which he argues there is no way government bureaucrats can have enough knowledge to "run" an economy. Economic fascists believed they could. Mussolini for a while was revered in the West because he got "the trains to run on time." Never mind the economy was contracting, and people were getting poorer, as they always do when the government assumes command and decides it knows more about what the people need than the people do. If you haven't read the book I strongly recommend it.

You are correct that government officials will never be "smarter" or more efficient at allocating trade resources than the expressed preferences of individuals as a market. I have no contention with that. None.

I really want to deep dive into these last 2 posts right now, but my Friday is packed. Hopefully others will weigh in. @07pilt etc. Critiquing or supporting. If this thread as and fizzled by tonight, I'll put down some thoughts.
 
It is understandable why people so fear a free market. Free markets are unruly, sloppy, messy. Industries grow and contract as there are new innovations. People lose jobs. Other people gain jobs. It can be frightening. People clamor for the government to save them. Which it is more than happy to claim it will do. Unfortunately with each new edict from the government the individual loses a little more autonomy. Personal freedom is the sacrifice that must be made in exchange for the government's "aid." It is regrettable that far too many people are willing to make that sacrifice. "Sure," they say, you can have a little piece of my soul; just save my job! I'm incapable of taking care of myself!"

Are you familiar with Bastiat's essay, "That which is seen, and that which is unseen?" In it he points out that even when a government program is successful at achieving its goal, that is what you see. What you don't see, what is hidden from view, are the unintended consequences of the program.

For example, let's say Trump is successful in browbeating and threatening car manufacturers into building their cars in the good old USA. He saved hundreds or thousands of good manufacturing jobs. He's a hero! That's what you see. But what you don't see is the cars now cost a couple of thousands more dollars to buy, say $28K instead of the $26K. You had $28K that you had saved, and you were going to spend 26 in new car and 2 in a new sofa. What the bureaucrats (or the public at large) don't see is now you don't have a sofa, which is detrimental to the sofa industry. Trump! Save us! The damned sofa industry is gouging. That's the unintended consequence of the government's meddling, which is a feature of economic fascism

I will now step down off my soapbox and go to bed!

I actually think that a lot of people DO see the trade-off you're describing. I also believe there are unseen costs that aren't been factored into the balance. Further there are unchallenged assumptions in the model as well.

Lastly, should perfect optimization of trade the ultimate goal? Are more Goods always best? Or is possessing a feeling of dignity at having a decent wage coupled with the trade-off of paying a few extra bucks at the grocery store a better satisfier?
 
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I actually think that a lot of people DO see the trade-off you're describing. I also believe there are unseen costs that aren't been factored into the balance. Further there are unchallenged assumptions in the model as well.

Lastly, should perfect optimization of trade the ultimate goal? Are more Goods always best? Or is possessing a feeling of dignity at having a decent wage coupled with the trade-off of paying a few extra bucks at the grocery store a better satisfier?

I,too, work for a living. I don't have time to respond. I refer you to Fredric Bastiat's essay, "That Which is Seen and That Which is Not Seen," specifically Section 7, alternately entitled "Restrictions" or "The Protectionist" depending on the translator. It's maybe four pages long. I would link to it if I had any idea how to do a link. But it is easily found on Google.

What feeling of dignity can a person have when he knows the only reason he has his job is because he used the police power of the state to force people to buy his product over the same product produced by someone else? I don't know how to respond to your first question, are more goods always best. I think the marketplace is the place to determine the answer.
 
Free traders would be against peanut, sugar and other commodity quotas, correct?
 
Please explain to me how American consumers buying foreign products at a cheaper price is hurting our economy.
Cheaper price doesn't mean it's the best deal for Americans.

You've got to factor in jobs lost, income taxes lost, less payments to social security, unemployment benefits and any other government entitlement you care to name.

If it's cheap labor we want for jobs that don't pay enough for Americans to accept why don't we have a very generous guest worker program with LEGAL WORKERS AND IMMIGRANTS coming into this country.

The problem is we have an entire group of people and politicians in this country that benefit from illegal immigration and globalism and they fight common sense immigration laws fiercely.
 
What feeling of dignity can a person have when he knows the only reason he has his job is because he used the police power of the state to force people to buy his product over the same product produced by someone else? I don't know how to respond to your first question, are more goods always best. I think the marketplace is the place to determine the answer.

I'd imagine that most people can feel a great deal of dignity when they go to their job, work hard, and earn the income in that paycheck.

How many working and middle-class people are familiar or even care about the philosophies you cite as long as they put food on the table and have a general feeling of satisfaction in the labor they perform?

How many define their life's experiences through a different prism? Had to contend with the answer is most.

I'd further contend that the market DID speak in this past election. Those workers in Wisconsin, Ohio, Michigan, and Pennsylvania in counties that once or twice voted Obama didn't wholesale switch their vote to Trump in a vacuum.

They are experiencing firsthand the churning, the feeling of economic insecurity, the feeling of helplessness, etc as corporations optimize their cost structure.

The market did speak.
 
Fellow libertarian here. Not a financial expert by any stretch though. You may well be right but do you gave any thoughts as to why the stock market has reacted so positively to Trump?
They thought he could get a $1 trillion infrastructure bill passed.

Also Mnuchin is very good for financial sector profits.
 
I'd imagine that most people can feel a great deal of dignity when they go to their job, work hard, and earn the income in that paycheck.

How many working and middle-class people are familiar or even care about the philosophies you cite as long as they put food on the table and have a general feeling of satisfaction in the labor they perform?

How many define their life's experiences through a different prism? Had to contend with the answer is most.

I'd further contend that the market DID speak in this past election. Those workers in Wisconsin, Ohio, Michigan, and Pennsylvania in counties that once or twice voted Obama didn't wholesale switch their vote to Trump in a vacuum.

They are experiencing firsthand the churning, the feeling of economic insecurity, the feeling of helplessness, etc as corporations optimize their cost structure.

The market did speak.

I don't for one minute live under the illusion that my philosophy is shared by a majority. I am so far in the minority my side is barely a blip on the screen. I get that.

But that doesn't mean the majority holds the moral high ground just because it is a majority. And in this case I believe they are way out of line to expect the government to put the minority under its thumb just so they can pretend they have dignity in their job. I'm quite certain they don't care a whit what I think as long as the government intercedes on their behalf to put food on their table.

My argument is that's not a proper function of government. And in the long run it is a practice destined for failure, and destined for a tyrannical government.

I disagree completely with you that the "market spoke" in the last election. The market operates outside the purview of the state. People's political will may have spoken, but that is virtually the opposite of free markets at work. Free markets do not allow for Presidents (or legislatures, or judges) to dictate winners and losers in the economy.
 
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I don't for one minute live under the illusion that my philosophy is shared by a majority. I am so far in the minority my side is barely a blip on the screen. I get that.

But that doesn't mean the majority holds the moral high ground just because it is a majority. And in this case I believe they are way out of line to expect the government to put the minority under its thumb just so they can pretend they have dignity in their job. I'm quite certain they don't care a whit what I think as long as the government intercedes on their behalf to put food on their table.

My argument is that's not a proper function of government. And in the long run it is a practice destined for failure, and destined for a tyrannical government.

I disagree completely with you that the "market spoke" in the last election. The market operates outside the purview of the state. People's political will may have spoken, but that is virtually the opposite of free markets at work. Free markets do not allow for Presidents (or legislatures, or judges) to dictate winners and losers in the economy.

I am getting the impression there may not be much middle ground for this conversation to continue, we may be speaking passed each other. For starters, I have zero desire for a President to decide winners and losers, which is the implication you ended with.

That said, I'll leave you with my over-arching philosophy (which has reformed over time): to hear me speak of trade or markets 4 or more years ago, I would have most likely fallen in @07pilt 's "Hayek" bucket.

Since then, I increasingly see the hardship and cost families are burdened with in the pursuit of idealistic theories on "trade."

"Trade" doesn't exist in a vacuum, and it is much more multivariate in impact than a graph can convey. There are countless dimensions to this equation.

I don't profess to know an ideal answer, or even have an idea of how the "answer" is defined. So, I've chosen to define what MY priority is: Maximizing the satisfaction (vaguely defined) of the US citizen. That's simplistic, does my broader take a disservice, but is succinct; it's the prism through which I largely view my politics.

The unquantified costs of trade, and I DO lump labor in the trade basket, are showing: economic insecurity, stagnant rise in working/middle class wages, loss of jobs, etc. These things can be granularized further for better consumption of impact.

In the totality of a quality life, I don't believe maximizing the ability to consume to the ultimate definition of the optimization of human experience. *Though I do think consumption is a fairly large chunk of that.

Much like corporations have undergone tremendous evolutions in recent decades by writing HR policy on the back of legitimate research on employee satisfaction, I believe US policy should be geared in a similar manner.... not toward the existing assumption of free trade theory that max consumption is optimal, but toward a more abstract measure of quality of life that includes other known human needs.

With almost anything a person can consume within the grasp of even the lowest 20% of US citizens, I'm willing to forgo a little consumption in favor of sub-optimal trade. My understood trade off is US policy that alleviates the burden being borne by population segments affected the most by the churning of "creative destruction."
 
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