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Andrew Sullivan says it best.

Syskatine

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Oct 14, 2018
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The bookends of our two-decade entanglement in Afghanistan are two men falling from the sky. The first, on September 11, 2001, happened in Manhattan, as a figure facing imminent immolation in a skyscraper chose to jump instead. The second we witnessed this week, as another young human body, losing what grip he had on an airplane taking off from Kabul airport, tumbled through the sky for the last moments of his life. Their deaths were both a function of one thing: resurgent theocratic barbarism. And today, they can be seen as punctuating its resilience.
Between these two horrors, we have the story of the West’s attempt to save Afghanistan from itself, to direct and control this non-country from outside. We failed. Everyone who has ever tried this Sisyphean task has failed. We lost the war long ago, and had conceded defeat already. Despite extraordinary sacrifices by Americans and Afghans and Brits and others, a viable, stable, less-awful alternative to Taliban rule existed only so long as it was kept on life support by the West — and not a day longer.
Our swift victory in the winter of 2001/2 soon became a circle of pointlessness, with al Qaeda underground, Bin Laden in Pakistan, and a Western-designed “government” wallowing in a fathomless pit of corruption. We should have left then, instead of flattering George W Bush’s utopian “nation-building”. Obama should have done the deed in his first term, but he figured he couldn’t end two wars at once, and tried to turn the Afghan project into a moral calling, as he drone-killed thousands. He caved — against Biden’s advice — to the blandishments of the top brass and the piety of the Blob. Trump should have done it — as he promised — but Trump couldn’t even build a wall. And real battle and conflict — along with real accountability that executing withdrawal would have demanded? Trump ran away from all of that for four years.
We can flagellate ourselves over this — and the futility of it all seems heartbreakingly obvious in retrospect — but it was not ignoble. Two difficult things can be true at the same time. Lives were saved, minds were opened a little, women breathed freer air for a while, bodies were less frequently bludgeoned by torture and barbarism, and souls were less stricken with constant dread. We know this because of so many glimpses of hopeful humanity these past two decades, from schoolgirls to voters, and because of what we just witnessed: a flood of people fleeing in panic and terror from the regime that comes next. Even a futile project can do some good — for a while.
But we also know that countless Afghans, exhausted by the incompetence and kleptocracy of their own government, unmoved by Western liberalism, had, over the last year, swiftly made deals with the winning party as it swept through all the provincial capitals. And we know the putative Afghan president ran like Sir Robin the moment he feared he might face the music and lose his life as well as his access to his well-padded international bank account. The final days proved the Potemkin emptiness of the entire project.
Of course, we should have gotten our people out before the Taliban’s imminent victory — all the Americans and every single Afghan who helped us. That we didn’t is horrifying. To contemplate this betrayal is to shudder. Think of the family of an interpreter now hiding from the Taliban; think of the girls who dreamed of careers; think of the gay men about to be murdered; think of the boys we are now effectively consigning to sexual abuse (as we had already, anyway). Some Americans glibly talk of “oppression” in this country as if they have any idea of what that word actually means. They should turn on the television and learn something.
We will soon have a better idea of exactly how this disastrous exit happened, how faulty the intelligence was, how deaf the White House might have been to the warnings, why the visas for our friends took so long to process, and so on. I’ve learned not to jump the gun on these stories, when we don’t yet know all the details. But if Biden delayed evacuation and refugee plans because he was spooked by Republican anti-immigrant rhetoric, he’s an idiot. If he delayed exit to coincide with 9/11’s anniversary, he’s way out over his skis. And if the military’s decades-long disinformation, bullshit and feel-good blather blinded us to reality in Afghanistan, they deserve a long-overdue shellacking too.
 
But there is something about the unreal huffing and puffing this week from the left-media, the neocon holdouts and the opportunistic Republicans that seems far too cheap and easy. It’s as if they have learned nothing — nothing — from the 21st Century. They are acting now as if we are snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, rather than finally ending the dumbest, longest war this country has ever fought.
They say they’re just decrying the way we left; but of course, this is the motte, not the bailey. Read any of their screeds, and you’ll see they still want us to stay. They still think they are right and that the American people are wrong, still believe they have the moral high ground, even as their morality has led to strategic blunders, and hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths. Bill Kristol — I kid you not — actually wrote another article condemning the withdrawal, quoting Churchill and Munich! How dead can a brain be?
Between these think-tank critics who helped create this nightmare in the first place, and Biden who ****ed it up but actually did it, I’m with the president. Biden is right that ending this conflict was always going to be a bloody, depressing mess. Maybe it’s more of a mess than it might have been in a perfect world — but it was always going to be a difference of degree, not kind. It’s one of those cliches that’s true: power really does abhor a vacuum, and, since the Trump agreement was reached, the vacuum in Afghanistan was fast intensifying. When a regime knows its time is going to be up soon, and its leaders are not as determined to keep power as insurgents are to seize it, things can collapse very, very quickly. If our military leaders did not get this, they are as useless now as they have been for the past 20 years.
The distinction between the US-puppet regime and the Taliban is a simple one: while the Kabul authorities were sustained by money and weakly-held Western concepts, the Taliban were gripped with medieval zeal and their own religion. And zeal can beat the most formidable military machine ever built. The other difference is that the Taliban were actually more efficient and less corrupt than the US-backed government. Here’s a slice of reality from The Economist over a year ago:
Sitting on a dusty rug beside their lorries at the edge of Kandahar, Afghanistan’s second city, a group of middle-aged drivers explain the difference between the Taliban and the government. Both groups take money from drivers on the road, says Muhammad Akram, leaning forward in a black kurta; both are violent. But when the Taliban stop him at a checkpoint, they write him a receipt. Waving a fistful of green papers, he explains how they ensure he won’t be charged twice: after he pays one group of Talibs, his receipt gets him through subsequent stops. Government soldiers, in contrast, rob him over and over. When he drives from Herat, a city near the Iranian border, to Kandahar, Mr Akram says, he will pay the Taliban once. Government soldiers he will pay at least 30 times.
And we wonder why it all fell apart so quickly.
The mullahs also had plenty of time and all the leverage to prepare for the moment of truth. We had other things on our plate — like a pandemic and an attempt to violently disrupt the transfer of power at home. We were, it seems, lecturing the Afghans on democracy as our own was teetering on the brink of disintegration — perhaps the very definition of an over-stretched empire. We were pouring trillions of dollars (all borrowed) into rebuilding a distant wilderness as our own streets and bridges were crumbling — another definition of imperial decline.
And the truth is: we were never going to be as committed to the fate of Afghanistan as the Afghans are. America is not a colonial power in its DNA, and it shows. And if we are to project power abroad, it might behoove us to shore up our strength at home first. Over-extended, hollowed-out, debt-burdened empires are not exactly intimidating to many enemies. Leaving Afghanistan is therefore not the blow to American power and prestige these pundits are claiming. Staying in Afghanistan is.
And violent regime collapse is always chaotic. When the US began to withdraw from Iraq, Isis swept in with stunning speed, as the will to resist crumbled. Whenever colonial or neo-colonial powers end an occupation, it is never pretty. Look at Africa or Palestine or India after the British withdrew. Bloody tribal catastrophe — with millions dead. In comparison, Afghanistan’s return to self-rule is rather tame so far. There was never going to be a smooth or orderly transition; or any result that didn’t bring the religious fanatics back to power. Never. If the last few days do not persuade the pious think-tankers and Blob stenographers of that, they are a lost cause. The least they can do as we witness the end of their delusional disaster of two decades is to shut up.
This isn’t easy. But geopolitics never is. It requires terrible moral choices. It demands serious acceptance of the costs of failure — not this jumped-up media hysteria. It requires taking responsibility ourselves, and not hounding the one man who actually took it, with all its political costs.
I mean: how many of us were closely following developments in Afghanistan this spring? How many read any stories about the place? How many segments did CNN devote to Afghanistan in June and July? And how many of us who cheered the original invasion have been able to acknowledge candidly how deeply wrong we were since, and retain a modicum of humility and shame as we watch the inevitable end of our own hubristic dreams?
Not many. But then we are not a very grown-up country these days. Mercifully, we have a president who is. Who did the right thing, when others refused to. And who is mercifully not backing down.
 
"But then we are not a very grown-up country these days. Mercifully, we have a president who is. Who did the right thing, when others refused to. And who is mercifully not backing down."

What a load of shitte. Leaving a billion dollars of military equipment and 10k+ people? F'n stupid...
 
 
Interesting take. I know I take people seriously who are more of a sycophant than the left wing media who is actually disgusted by this whole mess.
 
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"But then we are not a very grown-up country these days. Mercifully, we have a president who is. Who did the right thing, when others refused to. And who is mercifully not backing down."

What a load of shitte. Leaving a billion dollars of military equipment and 10k+ people? F'n stupid...
You are correct. This Sys guy is a fu*cking idiot. There is one right way and dozens of wrong ways to withdraw from occupying a country.
1. Evacuate non-miltary Americans and selected Afghan personnel
2. Extract all high tech equipment
3. Extract as much combat equipment as possible (f-15s and 16s & blackhawks)
4. Extract embassy and diplomat personnel.
5. blow up or destroy everything left behind
6. Evacuate military personnel

Biden's plan
1. Evacuate military personnel and screw everything else.

Biden is a bumbling fool that has no business being in any sort of leadership position in anything from garbage collection to diaper changing.
 
But there is something about the unreal huffing and puffing this week from the left-media, the neocon holdouts and the opportunistic Republicans that seems far too cheap and easy. It’s as if they have learned nothing — nothing — from the 21st Century. They are acting now as if we are snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, rather than finally ending the dumbest, longest war this country has ever fought.
They say they’re just decrying the way we left; but of course, this is the motte, not the bailey. Read any of their screeds, and you’ll see they still want us to stay. They still think they are right and that the American people are wrong, still believe they have the moral high ground, even as their morality has led to strategic blunders, and hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths. Bill Kristol — I kid you not — actually wrote another article condemning the withdrawal, quoting Churchill and Munich! How dead can a brain be?
Between these think-tank critics who helped create this nightmare in the first place, and Biden who ****ed it up but actually did it, I’m with the president. Biden is right that ending this conflict was always going to be a bloody, depressing mess. Maybe it’s more of a mess than it might have been in a perfect world — but it was always going to be a difference of degree, not kind. It’s one of those cliches that’s true: power really does abhor a vacuum, and, since the Trump agreement was reached, the vacuum in Afghanistan was fast intensifying. When a regime knows its time is going to be up soon, and its leaders are not as determined to keep power as insurgents are to seize it, things can collapse very, very quickly. If our military leaders did not get this, they are as useless now as they have been for the past 20 years.
The distinction between the US-puppet regime and the Taliban is a simple one: while the Kabul authorities were sustained by money and weakly-held Western concepts, the Taliban were gripped with medieval zeal and their own religion. And zeal can beat the most formidable military machine ever built. The other difference is that the Taliban were actually more efficient and less corrupt than the US-backed government. Here’s a slice of reality from The Economist over a year ago:

And we wonder why it all fell apart so quickly.
The mullahs also had plenty of time and all the leverage to prepare for the moment of truth. We had other things on our plate — like a pandemic and an attempt to violently disrupt the transfer of power at home. We were, it seems, lecturing the Afghans on democracy as our own was teetering on the brink of disintegration — perhaps the very definition of an over-stretched empire. We were pouring trillions of dollars (all borrowed) into rebuilding a distant wilderness as our own streets and bridges were crumbling — another definition of imperial decline.
And the truth is: we were never going to be as committed to the fate of Afghanistan as the Afghans are. America is not a colonial power in its DNA, and it shows. And if we are to project power abroad, it might behoove us to shore up our strength at home first. Over-extended, hollowed-out, debt-burdened empires are not exactly intimidating to many enemies. Leaving Afghanistan is therefore not the blow to American power and prestige these pundits are claiming. Staying in Afghanistan is.
And violent regime collapse is always chaotic. When the US began to withdraw from Iraq, Isis swept in with stunning speed, as the will to resist crumbled. Whenever colonial or neo-colonial powers end an occupation, it is never pretty. Look at Africa or Palestine or India after the British withdrew. Bloody tribal catastrophe — with millions dead. In comparison, Afghanistan’s return to self-rule is rather tame so far. There was never going to be a smooth or orderly transition; or any result that didn’t bring the religious fanatics back to power. Never. If the last few days do not persuade the pious think-tankers and Blob stenographers of that, they are a lost cause. The least they can do as we witness the end of their delusional disaster of two decades is to shut up.
This isn’t easy. But geopolitics never is. It requires terrible moral choices. It demands serious acceptance of the costs of failure — not this jumped-up media hysteria. It requires taking responsibility ourselves, and not hounding the one man who actually took it, with all its political costs.
I mean: how many of us were closely following developments in Afghanistan this spring? How many read any stories about the place? How many segments did CNN devote to Afghanistan in June and July? And how many of us who cheered the original invasion have been able to acknowledge candidly how deeply wrong we were since, and retain a modicum of humility and shame as we watch the inevitable end of our own hubristic dreams?
Not many. But then we are not a very grown-up country these days. Mercifully, we have a president who is. Who did the right thing, when others refused to. And who is mercifully not backing down.
Andrew Sullivan is always a great read. I agree with him more often than not. The same can be said about Caitlin Johnstone:


 
Andrew Sullivan is always a great read. I agree with him more often than not. The same can be said about Caitlin Johnstone:


Who is she?

Its a good read, and a lot of powerful truths in it. It's a pity we cant have a way before every war for the world to decide who's being the socio/psychopath, and then take them out.

She writes this:

A globe-spanning power structure loosely centralized around the United States orchestrates murder at mass scale to ensure perpetual domination of the planet. It really is that simple.

And then she kind of inadvertently justifies WHY you need a USA to step in every now and then and stop the sociopaths. She's right, though.


I think Andrew is dead on. Biden bungled this horribly. He also was the only one with the balls to do this. Obama resisted his counsel to gtfo because Obama didn't have the stomach for it.
 
You are correct. This Sys guy is a fu*cking idiot. There is one right way and dozens of wrong ways to withdraw from occupying a country.
1. Evacuate non-miltary Americans and selected Afghan personnel
2. Extract all high tech equipment
3. Extract as much combat equipment as possible (f-15s and 16s & blackhawks)
4. Extract embassy and diplomat personnel.
5. blow up or destroy everything left behind
6. Evacuate military personnel

Biden's plan
1. Evacuate military personnel and screw everything else.

Biden is a bumbling fool that has no business being in any sort of leadership position in anything from garbage collection to diaper changing.
 
We can all agree we needed out (or never should have been there) but this exit was a disaster of epic proportion. Our allies and the a Afghans that helped us have every right to never trust this nation again. Our Commander in Chief failed…period.
 
It doesn't take a foreign policy expert to know Biden massively screwed this up. Nor does it take a genius to have predicted Biden would screw it up. The man has been a foreign policy disaster for almost 50 years.
 
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Unbelievable double standard between this and the sudden syria pullout.
 
Seriously…are you retarded.
He is. He doesn't know anything about why our troops were actually pulled from Syria, what the issue with the Kurds was, or anything else. He has screechy programming installed daily by Rachel Maddow and The View.

You should ask him why any troops had to be pulled from Syria when there were no boots on the ground according to Barry Soetoro...
 
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Who is she?

Its a good read, and a lot of powerful truths in it. It's a pity we cant have a way before every war for the world to decide who's being the socio/psychopath, and then take them out.

She writes this:

A globe-spanning power structure loosely centralized around the United States orchestrates murder at mass scale to ensure perpetual domination of the planet. It really is that simple.

And then she kind of inadvertently justifies WHY you need a USA to step in every now and then and stop the sociopaths. She's right, though.


I think Andrew is dead on. Biden bungled this horribly. He also was the only one with the balls to do this. Obama resisted his counsel to gtfo because Obama didn't have the stomach for it.
I think you missed her primary point. Under no circumstance does she think the USA should step in to stop sociopaths. Her contention is the most dangerous sociopaths are in the USA, people like John Bolton, people who have been running the show for decades.
 
I think you missed her primary point. Under no circumstance does she think the USA should step in to stop sociopaths. Her contention is the most dangerous sociopaths are in the USA, people like John Bolton, people who have been running the show for decades.

Well, I disagree with her. Bolton has mental issues but saying he's as bad as ISIS or the Taliban is a bit much. If our sociopaths were as bad as ISIS' sociopaths you'd be seeing it, wouldn't you? We have the ability to hurt more people than ISIS ever did.
 
Well, I disagree with her. Bolton has mental issues but saying he's as bad as ISIS or the Taliban is a bit much. If our sociopaths were as bad as ISIS' sociopaths you'd be seeing it, wouldn't you? We have the ability to hurt more people than ISIS ever did.
American sociopaths like John Bolton are responsible for the murder of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of our fellow human beings, the vast majority of them innocent civilians who do not want to be involved in any war. Collateral damsge if you will.

These American sociopaths have figured out how to manipulate the media so the rest of us are blithely ignorant of what they are doing with our tax dollars and in our name.

As evil as the people in ISIS are - and they most certainly are evil - their “kill count” pales in comparison to America’s.
That’s a truth that’s very hard for most American’s to accept. Sociopaths like Bolton know that and use it to their advantage.
 
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