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A Reasonable Definition of 'Pro-Choice'

OKSTATE1

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My dad told all of us kids: If you are going to lie down like an adult, you better be prepared to walk like one. My dad was also a product of the great depression and fought in WW2, he also said in life there is no gray area when in comes to morality (right or wrong), only black and white.

May 19, 2019
A Reasonable Definition of 'Pro-Choice'
By Don Boys
I'm a definite, determined, and devoted pro-choice fundamental Baptist! I believe that a woman has a right, responsibility, and requirement to choose: a choice to keep her knees together or rear a child. That personal, practical, and profound choice would solve most of the abortion problems.

I told a young woman (who had 13 children, all supported by taxpayers) on the Sally Jesse Raphael Show where we were both guests that she would be much better off if she had spent more time in the vertical position, standing on her own two feet, than in a horizontal position. She looked at me blankly, not understanding what I said.

While it is commendable that she did not choose abortion (that would have eliminated her income), she obviously did not choose to keep her knees together.

Is it possible, dare I say it, that the young woman did not know why a baby seemed to pop out every nine months or so? Sex, one of God's greatest gifts to humanity, can be misused, as in prostitution, pedophilia, perversion (same-sex "marriage"), polygamy (multiple wives), polyandry (multiple husbands), and polyamory (simultaneous and mutual sexual relationships).

I began my first book, Liberalism: A Rope of Sand, in 1979 with this shocking incident: Professor L.R. Agnew, of the UCLA School of Medicine, posed this set of circumstances to his students: "Here is the family history. The father has syphilis; the mother has TB. They have already had four children. The first one is blind; the second one died. Third is deaf. The fourth has TB. The mother is pregnant with her fifth child. The parents are willing to have an abortion if you decide they should. What do you think?"

"Most of the students decided on abortion," said Professor Agnew.

"Congratulations!" he told them. "You have just murdered Beethoven."

Pro-life people should be careful to make it clear that the fact that the child turned out to be a master musician whose work is celebrated worldwide makes no difference in the morality. If Beethoven had turned out to be a chimney sweep, it would have made no difference as to right and wrong.

Radical leftists are frothing at the mouth over Alabama, Georgia, Missouri, and Texas because of the abortion bills they have passed or are in the process of passing. It is getting dangerous to be an abortionist; jail time may be in their future. It should be, since they are butchering helpless babies who can't even cry out in their own defense.

Humanity has become so jaded that people affirm that a child should be aborted even if he would not have a good quality of life. Some even think parents should have the right to kill a child a few years after birth!

It was revealed in the murder trial of abortionist Kermit Gosnell that a late-term baby survived a botched abortion and was "swimming" in a toilet and "trying to get out." An assistant killer then took the large baby out and "snipped the back of its neck while the mother was still in the room." Then Gosnell, a bloody barbarian baby butcher, sarcastically said the baby "was big enough that it could walk to the store or the bus stop." I'd like to see Gosnell in his white coat walk up the 13 steps of a gallows — literally.

There was testimony that the abortionist had snipped the spinal cords of about 10 babies who survived the abortion procedure. He was sentenced to life without parole, but the babies they dug out of the clogged toilet are still dead.

In my opinion, everyone in this sorry, sordid, sinful mess is complicit in murder — not manslaughter, not accidental death, not wrongful death, but murder. And any society that permits such atrocities is vile, vicious, and violent — and in the toilet.

Two professors published, in the Journal of Medical Ethics, a paper titled "After-Birth Abortion: Why Should the Baby Live?" It was a shocker, defending and advocating infanticide but calling it after-birth abortion.

The professors declared, "Therefore we claim that killing a newborn could be ethically permissible in all the circumstances where abortion would be. Such circumstances include cases where the newborn has the potential to have an (at least) acceptable life, but the well-being of the family is at risk."

Their vacuous arguments get worse by the paragraph. They say, "Merely being human is not in itself a reason for ascribing someone a right to life." The professors argue that personhood doesn't begin until sometime after birth, so there must be some magic going through the birth canal.

The professors defend their position by saying, "In order for a harm to occur, it is necessary that someone is in the condition of experiencing that harm. If a potential person, like a fetus and a newborn, does not become an actual person, like you and us, then there is neither an actual nor a future person who can be harmed, which means that there is no harm at all[.] ... In these cases, since non-persons have no moral rights to life, there are no reasons for banning after-birth abortions."

No one can defend such heartless slaughter, but people try. In fact, some people tell us abortion is an "act of compassion" since an unnecessary and unwanted child will also grow up unloved. Well, I'd rather be "unwanted" and "unloved" than "unalive."

There are many motives for a woman to kill her unborn baby. One reason is that the baby will be an inconvenience to her. After all, it is difficult to live an active social life with a baby hanging on the hip, or being required to get a baby sitter each night. Plus, you know, all the months of sickness, awkwardness, etc., and the sleepless nights, colic, teething, feeding, etc. Babies are a lot of trouble.

Still others tell us a child should not be permitted to live if he will be disabled, disfigured, or debased. It would be nice if the baby had a choice in the decision. But only the woman has a choice. Not the baby. Not the father, who is seldom involved in this discussion.

It seems a woman assumes that that life within her is hers alone, but the father has as many rights as the mother. The baby would not be there but for his cooperation. But then, the father is never considered by the hypocrites at Planned Parenthood or the screaming feminists. He, like the unborn baby, has no rights.

Women, in a word, have a right to control their own bodies, and the word is "no." They become "with child" because they refused to say the word and keep their knees together. The heartless mother, the nurses, and doctors will all stand at the Judgment one day as they finally realize they tried to undo what God did.

In a nation where little children (born and unborn) are slaughtered, no one is safe. Fyodor Dostoevsky (author of Crime and Punishment, etc.) said, "If God is dead, then nothing is morally wrong."

But God is not dead; I met and spoke with Him this morning. Those who kill the innocent will also meet with Him!

Dr. Don Boys is a former member of the Indiana House of Representatives, who ran a large Christian school in Indianapolis and wrote columns for USA Today for eight years. Boys's book, Muslim Invasion: The Fuse is Burning!, is available here. Follow Dr. Boys on Facebook at Don Boys, Ph.D. and at TheGodHaters and on Twitter, and visit his blog.
 
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IMO, at a minimum, conscience is the presence of God in man. To have no conscience towards engaging in sex with the intent of highly intense mutual gratification with your partner, and to possibly engage in the act without proper birth control while accepting and knowing that even with birth control you may create life since you knowingly engaged in an act that is present in our species only for procreation, and to then abort this creation of life over an act that you knowingly engaged in only for pleasure, has to be about the worst sin in the eyes of god. If you believe in no god, how can a human be so void of the presence of god (a human conscience) and humanity, that after a chasing a mutual orgasm your next stop is to see the Doctor to have some "cells" removed. So selfish, it is so selfish it is evil. Maybe you do not believe in god, but plenty of evil exists in this world. Are some so void of a conscience they no longer even know what evil is? Are we so selfish about "individual rights" that morality goes out the door for personal convenience?
 
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These laws not having exceptions for rape and incest is just as disgusting as allowing abortions to be used as a form of birth control
 
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My dad told all of us kids: If
By Don Boys
I'm a definite, determined, and devoted pro-choice fundamental Baptist! I believe that a woman has a right, responsibility, and requirement to choose: a choice to keep her knees together or rear a child. That personal, practical, and profound choice would solve most of the abortion problems.

I told a young woman (who had 13 children, all supported by taxpayers) on the Sally Jesse Raphael Show where we were both guests that she would be much better off if she had spent more time in the vertical position, standing on her own two feet, than in a horizontal position. She looked at me blankly, not understanding what I said.

While it is commendable that she did not choose abortion (that would have eliminated her income), she obviously did not choose to keep her knees together.

Is it possible, dare I say it, that the young woman did not know why a baby seemed to pop out every nine months or so? Sex, one of God's greatest gifts to humanity, can be misused, as in prostitution, pedophilia, perversion (same-sex "marriage"), polygamy (multiple wives), polyandry (multiple husbands), and polyamory (simultaneous and mutual sexual relationships).

I began my first book, Liberalism: A Rope of Sand, in 1979 with this shocking incident: Professor L.R. Agnew, of the UCLA School of Medicine, posed this set of circumstances to his students: "Here is the family history. The father has syphilis; the mother has TB. They have already had four children. The first one is blind; the second one died. Third is deaf. The fourth has TB. The mother is pregnant with her fifth child. The parents are willing to have an abortion if you decide they should. What do you think?"

"Most of the students decided on abortion," said Professor Agnew.

"Congratulations!" he told them. "You have just murdered Beethoven."

Pro-life people should be careful to make it clear that the fact that the child turned out to be a master musician whose work is celebrated worldwide makes no difference in the morality. If Beethoven had turned out to be a chimney sweep, it would have made no difference as to right and wrong.

Radical leftists are frothing at the mouth over Alabama, Georgia, Missouri, and Texas because of the abortion bills they have passed or are in the process of passing. It is getting dangerous to be an abortionist; jail time may be in their future. It should be, since they are butchering helpless babies who can't even cry out in their own defense.

Humanity has become so jaded that people affirm that a child should be aborted even if he would not have a good quality of life. Some even think parents should have the right to kill a child a few years after birth!

It was revealed in the murder trial of abortionist Kermit Gosnell that a late-term baby survived a botched abortion and was "swimming" in a toilet and "trying to get out." An assistant killer then took the large baby out and "snipped the back of its neck while the mother was still in the room." Then Gosnell, a bloody barbarian baby butcher, sarcastically said the baby "was big enough that it could walk to the store or the bus stop." I'd like to see Gosnell in his white coat walk up the 13 steps of a gallows — literally.

There was testimony that the abortionist had snipped the spinal cords of about 10 babies who survived the abortion procedure. He was sentenced to life without parole, but the babies they dug out of the clogged toilet are still dead.

In my opinion, everyone in this sorry, sordid, sinful mess is complicit in murder — not manslaughter, not accidental death, not wrongful death, but murder. And any society that permits such atrociti

No one can defend such heartless slaughter, but people try. In fact, some people tell us abortion is an "act of compassion" since an unnecessary and unwanted child will also grow up unloved. Well, I'd rather be "unwanted" and "unloved" than "unalive."

There are many motives for a woman to kill her unborn baby. One reason is that the baby will be an inconvenience to her. After all, it is difficult to live an active social life with a baby hanging on the hip, or being required to get a baby sitter each night. Plus, you know, all the months of sickness, awkwardness, etc., and the sleepless nights, colic, teething, feeding, etc. Babies are a lot of trouble.

Still others tell us a child should not be permitted to live if he will be disabled, disfigured, or debased. It would be nice if the baby had a choice in the decision. But only the woman has a choice. Not the baby. Not the father, who is seldom involved in this discussion.

It seems a woman assumes that that life within her is hers alone, but the father has as many rights as the mother. The baby would not be there but for his cooperation. But then, the father is never considered by the hypocrites at Planned Parenthood or the screaming feminists. He, like the unborn baby, has no rights.

Women, in a word, have a right to control their own bodies, and the word is "no." They become "with child" because they refused to say the word and keep their knees together. The heartless mother, the nurses, and doctors will all stand at the Judgment one day as they finally realize they tried to undo what God did.

In a nation where little children (born and unborn) are slaughtered, no one is safe. Fyodor Dostoevsky (author of Crime and Punishment, etc.) said, "If God is dead, then nothing is morally wrong."

But God is not dead; I met and spoke with Him this mornin
This a very emotional post and for thinking people.
I wouldn't abort a child nor would my wife that is another discussion,about people who are planning their families and most of us do.
The question is the law in Alabama which I think is grotesque. IT begins with it being
life begins with conception,with no exceptions for abortions.
You and me think differently but every one has the right to have their own opinions.
ostatedchi a devout conservative in his manifesto about his beliefs declared that the govt does not have the right to be in his bedroom and govt had no right to protect him
from himself.
The example of Beethoven is
illogical and I will tell you why in last 1000 yrs how many women and their unborn child died during pregnancy and during delivery?

How many Beethoven,Einsteins ,Newtons,Davinci"s have died?
A muslim televangelist gave the same argument about himself. him being the 7th child and he said that if his parents had stopped having children after the sixth child
he wouldn't be here and I wish his parents had stopped having children after the 6th
child because he is as important to Islam and muslims as I am.
Children are having sex at as young as 12 yrs old and some of them would get pregnant
I think it is theirs and their parents decision to continue the pregnancy.
Girls who get pregnant because of incest or rape it should be left to them
to decide if they want to keep the baby.
What about that woman who was in coma and was impregnated by a male nurse.
In Alabama she cannot get an abortion.
At sixteen weeks of pregnancy the doctors can tell you whether you have a healthy child or not,and they can also tell you what kind of problems he/she may have.I think
the parents should decide whether they want to bring a child with severe problems in this world because in this case both the child and parents suffer.
There are only 1.3% of the abortions that happen after 20 weeks in the US.
I am sure pro choice people have many more examples.
I am against abortion as far as my wife and me are concerned,but I cannot become
spokes person for the entire world.
Even Patterson(televangelist) thought it was extreme.
Dont bring religion in this debate because every one has a different interpretation
of their religion.
20% evangelical christians voted against Trump.
 
These laws not having exceptions for rape and incest is just as disgusting as allowing abortions to be used as a form of birth control
I agree, but also believe rape accusations would increase if consensual one night stands end up in pregnancy.
 
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Okstate1 This is an emotional post and thoughtful post but debatable.
I am against abortion and so is my wife as far as my family is concerned.
People who are thoughtful plan their families according to what they decide
how large their families should be. Most of the board would agree with that, and if there
is an accident we would say "hell" let this not happen again and prepare for the next child.
Now we are talking about the Alabama law
But to simplify it to the point that a woman should keep her legs closed and not lie down
is over simplifying it.
Giving Beethoven"s example is illogical. Please tell me how many women with their unborn babies have died during pregnancy or delivery in last 1000 yrs.
How many Einsteins,Newtons,Bach.Socrates and Davinci have died because of that.
How many Jewish children or pregnant women were killed during holocaust and how many geniuses did we lose.So it is not a valid argument.
Children are having sex at as young as 12 yrs old. Certain numbers of them would get pregnant, it is not an adult decision.What emotional or social pressure they have to get sexually active at that age I dont know neither do you.It should be up to their parents
with their compliance to decide whether to keep the baby or abort it.
Incest and rape the decision should be up to the girl to decide to keep the baby or not.
In today's medical world the doctor can tell you within 16 weeks of the pregnancy whether the child would be healthy or what health problems the child may have,then the decision should be up to the parents to bring the child in this world because in this case both the child and the parents would suffer for rest of their lives.
Yes there are cases of promiscuous people both men and women, in some cases
the women get pregnant it is not because the women cannot keep their legs closed but because the condom doesn't work or other birth control method failed.
Of course there are other cases where it is negligence on part of both.
In all these cases the decision should be up to the woman whether to keep
the baby or abort. If you believe in heaven and hell then leave it to the god to punish them, not you and me here on this earth.
Like I said I am against abortion but I cannot be spokes person for the entire world.
Nor should 24, old people who are all men should decide for the entire state of Alabama.
Pro choice doesn't mean one believes every child should be aborted or you or family is being forced to get an abortion it is up to the people who are pregnant to decide
whether they should keep the baby. They will get their emotional and psychological
punishment in this world and god would decide their fate in after life.
By the way only 1.3 percent of the abortions happen after 20 weeks of pregnancy
in the US.
 
Like many issues no one is probably changing their mind on this issue.

I personally believe abortion is used far too many times as a form of birth control and kids are being aborted because the adults involved do not want to be inconvenienced. And let’s not inconvenience the sex life of adults and their pursuit of multiple orgasms, that would be evil as well.

The simple fact is, women should keep their knees together if they do not want kids, there is other forms of gratification between couples. You can also self gratify yourself. You are the adult, to place your self gratification ahead of avoiding an abortion is sickening. It is called self control, it just takes discipline which in today’s world there is none, and zero individual accountability.

Humans are not perfect, frequently we choose what is convenient over what is right.

Cowardice is knowing something is wrong and not speaking up or not defending those who can not defend themselves.

I was adopted from parents that were already married, so I have a real appreciation of the decision they made, it was possibly the most unselfish and most loving act that could have done for me. They elected to give me life and hopefully a better life than they obviously felt they could provide, that was a mature and self aware decision to make. I have zero hard feelings and I am so thankful they valued the sanctity of life. I was adopted at such a young age I have zero recollection of my parents, but I know they were good people, people with a conscience.
 
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Like many issues no one is probably changing their mind on this issue.

I personally believe abortion is used far too many times as a form of birth control and kids are being aborted because the adults involved do not want to be inconvenienced. And let’s not inconvenience the sex life of adults and their pursuit of multiple orgasms, that would be evil as well.

The simple fact is, women should keep their knees together if they do not want kids, there is other forms of gratification between couples. You can also self gratify yourself. You are the adult, to place your self gratification ahead of avoiding an abortion is sickening. It is called self control, it just takes discipline which in today’s world there is none, and zero individual accountability.

Humans are not perfect, frequently we choose what is convenient over what is right.

Cowardice is knowing something is wrong and not speaking up or not defending those who can not defend themselves.

I was adopted from parents that were already married, so I have a real appreciation of the decision they made, it was possibly the most unselfish and most loving act that could have done for me. They elected to give me life and hopefully a better life than they obviously felt they could provide, that was a mature and self aware decision to make. I have zero hard feelings and I am so thankful they valued the sanctity of life. I was adopted at such a young age I have zero recollection of my parents, but I know they were good people, people with a conscience.
That is a very touching story.
Yes there are many ways to gratify yourself but sex maybe the best option because it is not just the dream world.
Sex is depended on two people not just women,man plays a very important role.
A lot of times they may not be in the proper mental state( Drunk or High).
I do agree with you about it being used a lot more than needed but laws prohibiting it
is not the answer. You remember "prohibition" didn't work nor would abortion laws
they would go to another state or have the abortion by unqualified people hence more women dying or mutilated in some other ways.
 
That is a very touching story.
Yes there are many ways to gratify yourself but sex maybe the best option because it is not just the dream world.
Sex is depended on two people not just women,man plays a very important role.
A lot of times they may not be in the proper mental state( Drunk or High).
I do agree with you about it being used a lot more than needed but laws prohibiting it
is not the answer. You remember "prohibition" didn't work nor would abortion laws
they would go to another state or have the abortion by unqualified people hence more women dying or mutilated in some other ways.

So we should manage society to the lowest common denominator?

So, people should not be held accountable morally for their actions being drunk or high? So, drunk drivers that kill should be allowed to go free?

Maybe if people were held more accountable, people would be more accountable.

I shed no tears for someone who gets someone pregnant and they were drunk and or high.

Gonna lay down like an adult, be prepared to stand and walk like an adult.
 
These laws not having exceptions for rape and incest is just as disgusting as allowing abortions to be used as a form of birth control

While I tend to agree with you there is another side to that argument. There are well over 600k abortions performed in this country every year, with a little less than 2% of those abortion being performed as a result of rape or incest. I don't mean to be callused only factually here but of those women that are raped how many are already sexually active and chose not to protect themselves from an unwanted pregnancy? Could women protect themselves from getting pregnant as a result of rape by taking birth control?
Please do not take this as me condoning rape in any fashion, I'm merely taking the emotions out of the discussion and looking at the facts. If a women is of age and sexually active IMO she has a responsibility to protect against an unwanted pregnancy just for the mere fact she is the one that suffers the consequences. It's the exact same thing we taught our daughter.
 
Like many issues no one is probably changing their mind on this issue.

I personally believe abortion is used far too many times as a form of birth control and kids are being aborted because the adults involved do not want to be inconvenienced. And let’s not inconvenience the sex life of adults and their pursuit of multiple orgasms, that would be evil as well.

The simple fact is, women should keep their knees together if they do not want kids, there is other forms of gratification between couples. You can also self gratify yourself. You are the adult, to place your self gratification ahead of avoiding an abortion is sickening. It is called self control, it just takes discipline which in today’s world there is none, and zero individual accountability.

Humans are not perfect, frequently we choose what is convenient over what is right.

Cowardice is knowing something is wrong and not speaking up or not defending those who can not defend themselves.

I was adopted from parents that were already married, so I have a real appreciation of the decision they made, it was possibly the most unselfish and most loving act that could have done for me. They elected to give me life and hopefully a better life than they obviously felt they could provide, that was a mature and self aware decision to make. I have zero hard feelings and I am so thankful they valued the sanctity of life. I was adopted at such a young age I have zero recollection of my parents, but I know they were good people, people with a conscience.

My mother was adopted back in 1944 when she was born. She was the product of a nurse and a wounded WWII soldier that was recovering at a Military facility in Galveston. Abortion was illegal at that time and I can't help but think if it had been legal neither my mother, myself, my kids and their kids would have the opportunity to live. My mother holds no resentment towards her birthmother and has no idea if the father knew anything about it but she is grateful for being given the opportunity to experience life.
 
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I have an adopted daughter we got her when she was two days old. She is 18 now beautiful intelligent and is preparing to go abroad for her studies and for abortion.
I showed her your 2nd post and asked her what she thinks about abortion now,her reply
was that if she had been aborted then she wouldn't be here and it wouldn't matter to her
because she does not exist.
As far far as morality is concerned it varies from person to person and culture to culture.
In Pakistan pre marital sex is not as prevalent as in Europe and US. So morality concept is different.
See the problem with society is that nobody can manage it, the only thing constant is change and we all over a certain age better get used to it. The society is very different
from our parents time and would very different when our children get to our age.
So okstate1 no law would make any difference it would be overturned again after some years.
 
These laws not having exceptions for rape and incest is just as disgusting as allowing abortions to be used as a form of birth control

The only reason to be opposed to abortion is the belief that an innocent human life may be taken.

If you are against the potential killing an innocent human, you have to be against it in all cases, regardless of how the person was conceived.
 
The only reason to be opposed to abortion is the belief that an innocent human life may be taken.

If you are against the potential killing an innocent human, you have to be against it in all cases, regardless of how the person was conceived.
This debate I dont want to get in because there are too many opinions on when life begins.
I am against abortion personally but pro choice, leaving the decision to whom ever
wants to have. I dont think society can control it by bringing laws that are not enforceable.
You can become a country like NK where everything is controlled by state or leave certain issues for individuals to decide.it is up to you.
 
While I tend to agree with you there is another side to that argument. There are well over 600k abortions performed in this country every year, with a little less than 2% of those abortion being performed as a result of rape or incest. I don't mean to be callused only factually here but of those women that are raped how many are already sexually active and chose not to protect themselves from an unwanted pregnancy? Could women protect themselves from getting pregnant as a result of rape by taking birth control?
Please do not take this as me condoning rape in any fashion, I'm merely taking the emotions out of the discussion and looking at the facts. If a women is of age and sexually active IMO she has a responsibility to protect against an unwanted pregnancy just for the mere fact she is the one that suffers the consequences. It's the exact same thing we taught our daughter.
Then stop cutting funding for Planned parenthood and programs like that, they provide education and free birth control, not just abortions........have a robust sex education program in schools..........
 
Then stop cutting funding for Planned parenthood and programs like that, they provide education and free birth control, not just abortions........have a robust sex education program in schools..........

Good grief, you want PPH to be involved in reducing the number of abortions when they are the organization that has helped make the problem. SMFH PPH is nothing more than a Democrat front for funding Democrat campaigns with tax dollars.
 
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