Your dogs are not your children. I repeat your dogs are not your children

[SamuraiFred]

So, when there is a splash pad that is made for children......keep your stupid f***ing dogs out of it,and stop filming them on your phones like a couple of assholes while the children stand on the periphery presumably scared of the dogs hogging the middle of the splash pad. I have an 180lb dog who thinks killing animals of any kind is playing. Perhaps I'll take him to the dog park and film what happens.

 

[nathajw]

People that treat dogs like humans are weird, mostly middle to old aged women that live alone with their dog(s). They creep me the hell out.

It's also alarming the amount of people that keep their fat and lazy dogs inside all of the time. It's hard to believe that dogs ever managed to survive before the past 50-100 years, ya know, with having to be outside in a lil' heat or cold.

 

[EvilPOKES]

I have two dogs and 3 cats. We have no children nor will we most likely. I treat them as my kids. Now, I won't be taking them to the splash pad, so rest assured. But, I will treat my animals however the hell I please.

 

[nathajw]

My 8th grade teacher used to set a place for her poodle at the dinner table and would put its food on the same plates that she and her husband would eat off of and that dog would sit in a chair and eat off the plate at the dinner table in their dining room with them. She belonged in a straitjacket.

 

[JonnyVito]

My 8th grade teacher used to set a place for her poodle at the dinner table and would put its food on the same plates that she and her husband would eat off of and that dog would sit in a chair and eat off the plate at the dinner table in their dining room with them. She belonged in a straitjacket.

I am a big dog person and I even find that weird. I also would never take my dog to a place where kids play. I would be to scared of a unvaccinated kid biting my dog.

 

[PDT816]

I would assume taking your dog to a splash pad is as good of a way as any to pick up hot moms now that Ashley Madison is out of the mix. Lawn sprinklers in the back yard were good enough when I was a kid, should be good enough for the entitled little chits today.

 

[100TonsofOrangeFury]

People that treat dogs like humans are weird, mostly middle to old aged women that live alone with their dog(s). They creep me the hell out.

It's also alarming the amount of people that keep their fat and lazy dogs inside all of the time. It's hard to believe that dogs ever managed to survive before the past 50-100 years, ya know, with having to be outside in a lil' heat or cold.

Yeah so I work with one and lived next door to another until two weeks ago. She and her two little dogs smoked, crapped, and trashed her house to the point it required about $100K in renovations in order to sell.

The kind human side of me realizes that they're lonely and disturbed people, while the side of me that walks around most of the time is creeped the hell out too.

Regarding the "my dogs are my children" types, to each his own, but they may not realize how imbalanced and creepy this appears to normal people without a dog fetish. Because it is.

 

[nathajw]

Yeah so I work with one and lived next door to another until two weeks ago. She and her two little dogs smoked, crapped, and trashed her house to the point it required about $100K in renovations in order to sell.

The kind human side of me realizes that they're lonely and disturbed people, while the side of me that walks around most of the time is creeped the hell out too.

Regarding the "my dogs are my children" types, to each his own, but they may not realize how imbalanced and creepy this appears to normal people without a dog fetish. Because it is.

Right. Dogs are like family and mine have great lives but I don't get it twisted, they're still dogs..

 

[Ostatedchi]

I've had 3 main dogs in my life since I was a kid that all lived 12 to 15 years and I loved each of them. But, they aren't kids... and it isn't close. Take your dog to the dog park and let the kids play on the equipment designed for them.

http://www.peopleiwanttopunchinthethroat.com/2011/05/people-who-treat-their-dogs-like.html

 

[osu_orangestreak]

The idiots here in Florida are ordering service dog vest and then taking there dogs everywhere with them claiming they help them with their made up disorders. I have heard numerous stories of them taking them to stores and restaurants where they crap on the floor, intimidate people and take food off others tables.

 

[WAHOOS14]

180lb dog that kills for fun? So you treat it more like an older brother/serial killer then?

 

[blbronco]

That is a major pet peave of mine as well. I frequently read the law to restaurant managers (have it saved on my phone) so they know that they actually can tell the people to leave if the animal is disruptive. That is one "helpful" law that is going to get someone in trouble, and that needs fixed.

 

[AnniePokely]

I like my dogs far more than I like most people. This thread reinforces that.

 

[TheRedSon]

My dog is smarter than half the people I know.

She has better manners than almost all of them.

She REALLY likes spray pads though.

Number of children she has bitten or been allowed to intimidate at a spray pad = 0

Number of children that enjoyed playing with and petting her at a spray pad = well I'm good with numbers, but not that good.

 

[nathajw]

Who doesn't Iike their own dog(s) more than most people? People suck, lots of dogs suck too. That doesn't mean you have to be creepy and treat it like it's a human. It's a dog.

I've never seen a human lay down in a room full of complete strangers and start trying to lick their own junk but mine is so good at it he should get paid for it. Some of y'all push something like this around the park and grocery store don't you?

 

[JonnyVito]

One thing I have always told my wife when she gives me a hard time for "babying" the dog. If I put you and the dog in the trunk of the car for 4 hours. When I open it he will have a smile of his face and a wagging tail.

 

[JonnyVito]

and babying to me is buying a new toy are petsmart.

 

[windriverrange]

Never had nor wanted kids....always preferred dogs of which we have 9 now (Chihuahua all the way up to a Great Pyrenees), with the exception of two of them they were all abandoned or given to us as a the stop right before the pound. Just took two of them backpacking with me in Wyoming as well where they performed fantastically.

In most instances I prefer my dogs companionship to any humans except my wife and the only time they sleep out side is when they are backpacking with me or its really cold and they want to be there (Malamute & Husky).

I wouldn't take them to a park where they interfere with kids on the things kids play in or on though......especially the water pads. most dog owners I know though are pretty responsible and wouldn't do that either.

One of my favorite explanations about our four-legged friends;
"And the dog heard"
God summoned a beast from the field and he said, "Behold man, created in my image. Therefore, adore him. You shall protect him in the wilderness, shepherd his flocks, watch over his children, accompany him wherever he may go...even into civilization. You shall be his companion, his ally, his slave."
"To do these things," God said, "I endow you with these instincts, uncommon to other beasts: Faithfulness, devotion and understanding surpassing those of man himself."
"Lest it impair your courage, you shall never foresee your death. Lest it impair your loyalty, you shall be blind to the faults of man. Lest it impair your understanding, you are denied the power of words."
"Let no fault of language cleave an accord beyond that of man with any other beast or even man with man. Speak to you master only with your mind and through your honest eyes."
"Walk by his side; sleep in his doorway; forage for him; ward off his afflictions; love him and comfort him. And in return for this, man will fulfill your needs and wants --- which shall be only food, shelter and affection."
"So be silent, and be a friend to man. Guide him through the perils along the way to this land that I have promised him. This shall be your destiny and your immortality." So spoke the Lord.
And the dog heard and was content.

 

[100TonsofOrangeFury]

Never had nor wanted kids....always preferred dogs of which we have 9 now (Chihuahua all the way up to a Great Pyrenees), with the exception of two of them they were all abandoned or given to us as a the stop right before the pound. Just took two of them backpacking with me in Wyoming as well where they performed fantastically.

In most instances I prefer my dogs companionship to any humans except my wife and the only time they sleep out side is when they are backpacking with me or its really cold and they want to be there (Malamute & Husky).

I wouldn't take them to a park where they interfere with kids on the things kids play in or on though......especially the water pads. most dog owners I know though are pretty responsible and wouldn't do that either.

One of my favorite explanations about our four-legged friends;
"And the dog heard"
God summoned a beast from the field and he said, "Behold man, created in my image. Therefore, adore him. You shall protect him in the wilderness, shepherd his flocks, watch over his children, accompany him wherever he may go...even into civilization. You shall be his companion, his ally, his slave."
"To do these things," God said, "I endow you with these instincts, uncommon to other beasts: Faithfulness, devotion and understanding surpassing those of man himself."
"Lest it impair your courage, you shall never foresee your death. Lest it impair your loyalty, you shall be blind to the faults of man. Lest it impair your understanding, you are denied the power of words."
"Let no fault of language cleave an accord beyond that of man with any other beast or even man with man. Speak to you master only with your mind and through your honest eyes."
"Walk by his side; sleep in his doorway; forage for him; ward off his afflictions; love him and comfort him. And in return for this, man will fulfill your needs and wants --- which shall be only food, shelter and affection."
"So be silent, and be a friend to man. Guide him through the perils along the way to this land that I have promised him. This shall be your destiny and your immortality." So spoke the Lord.
And the dog heard and was content.

windriver, that's a really cool story on the dogs. I will say that some are violating the "be silent" part.

Where do you do your backpacking?

 

[windriverrange]

100 tons, I either go to the Wind River Range (roughly between Pinedale, Farson, Lander. & Jackson WY) and Carson NF in NM. The Winds are by far the best though just that they are a two day drive to get there (green river lakes is exactly 1,200.7 miles from the trailhead parking lot to my driveway). I definitely go where there are dog friendly rules (no lead required) and people are as scarce as honest politicians. If you are ever inclined to get away I highly suggest the Winds, there are boating lakes, 100 miles of trails and some of the nicest scenery in the lower 48.
It's where my dogs ashes mixed with mine , of course, will be spread. Google "Green River Lakes WY" and "Squaretop Mountain WY" and you will see some awesome pics.

 

[AnniePokely]

Who doesn't Iike their own dog(s) more than most people? People suck, lots of dogs suck too. That doesn't mean you have to be creepy and treat it like it's a human. It's a dog.

I've never seen a human lay down in a room full of complete strangers and start trying to lick their own junk but mine is so good at it he should get paid for it. Some of y'all push something like this around the park and grocery store don't you?

Absolutely. On my off days of running I push mine in the park. Mainly because I spent 5 grand trying to repair her knee, twice, from luxating patella.

I don't push her in the store, she has her own bag she rides in.

If thats creepy I'll take it proudly. I've rescued and placed dozens and dozens of dogs, cats and horses. I wouldn't really judge others over how they treat their pets after seeing the condition of some of these animals by their owners who couldn't care less...but to each his own.

 

[gipraw]

Never had nor wanted kids....always preferred dogs of which we have 9 now (Chihuahua all the way up to a Great Pyrenees), with the exception of two of them they were all abandoned or given to us as a the stop right before the pound. Just took two of them backpacking with me in Wyoming as well where they performed fantastically.

In most instances I prefer my dogs companionship to any humans except my wife and the only time they sleep out side is when they are backpacking with me or its really cold and they want to be there (Malamute & Husky).

I wouldn't take them to a park where they interfere with kids on the things kids play in or on though......especially the water pads. most dog owners I know though are pretty responsible and wouldn't do that either.

One of my favorite explanations about our four-legged friends;
"And the dog heard"
God summoned a beast from the field and he said, "Behold man, created in my image. Therefore, adore him. You shall protect him in the wilderness, shepherd his flocks, watch over his children, accompany him wherever he may go...even into civilization. You shall be his companion, his ally, his slave."
"To do these things," God said, "I endow you with these instincts, uncommon to other beasts: Faithfulness, devotion and understanding surpassing those of man himself."
"Lest it impair your courage, you shall never foresee your death. Lest it impair your loyalty, you shall be blind to the faults of man. Lest it impair your understanding, you are denied the power of words."
"Let no fault of language cleave an accord beyond that of man with any other beast or even man with man. Speak to you master only with your mind and through your honest eyes."
"Walk by his side; sleep in his doorway; forage for him; ward off his afflictions; love him and comfort him. And in return for this, man will fulfill your needs and wants --- which shall be only food, shelter and affection."
"So be silent, and be a friend to man. Guide him through the perils along the way to this land that I have promised him. This shall be your destiny and your immortality." So spoke the Lord.
And the dog heard and was content.

Nice. No way your Pyr is silent, though. Our two Pyrs are nicknamed Barkasaurus and Barkopotamus.

 

[Anodyne]

That is a major pet peave of mine as well. I frequently read the law to restaurant managers (have it saved on my phone) so they know that they actually can tell the people to leave if the animal is disruptive. That is one "helpful" law that is going to get someone in trouble, and that needs fixed.

I read this story not long ago about a Chicago restaurant manager who kicked out a veteran and his service (PTSD) dog, which resulted in an apology from the restaurant after it hit the news. A similar situation got someone fired.

In one of my classes a couple of years ago, a student had an accommodation letter allowing a comfort pet---a Blue Heeler. I love those dogs but they're not exactly the mellow "comforting" breed, but whatever. The dog would fidget non-stop in class, and get really restless towards the end of class (like most students). It even barked a couple of times. And it shed like CRAZY. After the second day of the dog being in class, I had another student come up and tell me that he was horribly allergic to shedding dogs. His eyes were damn near swollen shut. Of course he was my best student who really engaged discussion, and he was worried that he would need to drop the class. I explained the situation to the campus office for students with disabilities. They were stumped---and knew they would be really stumped if this student came in with an accommodation request relating to allergies. We moved to a much larger classroom, and had the dog and the allergic student sit in opposite corners. And we had the facilities crew vacuum after every class. The allergic student survived but it was pretty tough for him; he missed about 1/3 of the classes which I didn't hold against him.

The student with the dog eventually asked if her roommate (not a student in the class) could come to class...to help take care of the dog and keep him calm during the lecture! The dog wore a Halloween costume: a doggie jacket in the shape of a sheep, with the fake sheep head perched atop his head. Cute, but a bit of a distraction when you're trying to enthrall your students with a lecture about slave rebellions or the Kansas-Nebraska Act.

 

[blbronco]

That is crazy....but not unexpected. Btw, here is the law i quote. Scary how much people use it to bully people. The ADA, which was necessary is used as a weapon here rather than a tool.

U.S. Department of JusticeCivil Rights Division
Disability Rights Section

Service Animals
The Department of Justice published revised final regulations implementing the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) for title II (State and local government services) and title III (public accommodations and commercial facilities) on September 15, 2010, in the Federal Register. These requirements, or rules, clarify and refine issues that have arisen over the past 20 years and contain new, and updated, requirements, including the 2010 Standards for Accessible Design (2010 Standards).
Overview
This publication provides guidance on the term “service animal” and the service animal provisions in the Department’s new regulations.

• 
  
  
  • Beginning on March 15, 2011, only dogs are recognized as service animals under titles II and III of the ADA.
  • A service animal is a dog that is individually trained to do work or perform tasks for a person with a disability.
  • Generally, title II and title III entities must permit service animals to accompany people with disabilities in all areas where members of the public are allowed to go.

How “Service Animal” Is Defined
Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities. Examples of such work or tasks include guiding people who are blind, alerting people who are deaf, pulling a wheelchair, alerting and protecting a person who is having a seizure, reminding a person with mental illness to take prescribed medications, calming a person with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) during an anxiety attack, or performing other duties. Service animals are working animals, not pets. The work or task a dog has been trained to provide must be directly related to the person’s disability. Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA.

This definition does not affect or limit the broader definition of “assistance animal” under the Fair Housing Act or the broader definition of “service animal” under the Air Carrier Access Act.

Some State and local laws also define service animal more broadly than the ADA does. Information about such laws can be obtained from the State attorney general’s office.

Where Service Animals Are Allowed
Under the ADA, State and local governments, businesses, and nonprofit organizations that serve the public generally must allow service animals to accompany people with disabilities in all areas of the facility where the public is normally allowed to go. For example, in a hospital it would be inappropriate to exclude a service animal from areas such as patient rooms, clinics, cafeterias, or examination rooms. However, it may be appropriate to exclude a service animal from operating rooms or burn units where the animal’s presence may compromise a sterile environment.

Service Animals Must Be Under Control
Under the ADA, service animals must be harnessed, leashed, or tethered, unless these devices interfere with the service animal’s work or the individual’s disability prevents using these devices. In that case, the individual must maintain control of the animal through voice, signal, or other effective controls.

Inquiries, Exclusions, Charges, and Other Specific Rules Related to Service Animals

• 
  
  
  • When it is not obvious what service an animal provides, only limited inquiries are allowed. Staff may ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform. Staff cannot ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task.
  • Allergies and fear of dogs are not valid reasons for denying access or refusing service to people using service animals. When a person who is allergic to dog dander and a person who uses a service animal must spend time in the same room or facility, for example, in a school classroom or at a homeless shelter, they both should be accommodated by assigning them, if possible, to different locations within the room or different rooms in the facility.
  • A person with a disability cannot be asked to remove his service animal from the premises unless: (1) the dog is out of control and the handler does not take effective action to control it or (2) the dog is not housebroken. When there is a legitimate reason to ask that a service animal be removed, staff must offer the person with the disability the opportunity to obtain goods or services without the animal’s presence.
  • Establishments that sell or prepare food must allow service animals in public areas even if state or local health codes prohibit animals on the premises.
  • People with disabilities who use service animals cannot be isolated from other patrons, treated less favorably than other patrons, or charged fees that are not charged to other patrons without animals. In addition, if a business requires a deposit or fee to be paid by patrons with pets, it must waive the charge for service animals.
  • If a business such as a hotel normally charges guests for damage that they cause, a customer with a disability may also be charged for damage caused by himself or his service animal.
  • Staff are not required to provide care or food for a service animal.

Miniature Horses
In addition to the provisions about service dogs, the Department’s revised ADA regulations have a new, separate provision about miniature horses that have been individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities. (Miniature horses generally range in height from 24 inches to 34 inches measured to the shoulders and generally weigh between 70 and 100 pounds.) Entities covered by the ADA must modify their policies to permit miniature horses where reasonable. The regulations set out four assessment factors to assist entities in determining whether miniature horses can be accommodated in their facility. The assessment factors are (1) whether the miniature horse is housebroken; (2) whether the miniature horse is under the owner’s control; (3) whether the facility can accommodate the miniature horse’s type, size, and weight; and (4) whether the miniature horse’s presence will not compromise legitimate safety requirements necessary for safe operation of the facility.

For more information about the ADA, please visit our website or call our toll-free number.

 

[H Town Poke]

Staff cannot .., require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task.

If the ADA requires: a dog that is individually trained to do work or perform tasks for a person with a disability, then the owner should have to provide some sort of state issued verification card that it completed the training. That can be done without violating the owners privacy. That would put an end to someone just purchasing a service vest for a dog and taking it in to Applebees because they don't want to leave it at home.

 

[blbronco]

I agree that they should be required to present documentation, but as it stands, a business/individual cannot make that request. All the business can ask is "does your dog provide a service as described by the ADA?" If the person says yes, that ends it. They can also ask what service they provide, but require no proof that the dog actually does it.

Also, there is no widely accepted certification process that could provide more authority over any other, and there are some terrible ones. As it stands, there is only one instance where documentation can be required, and that is during an emergency (disaster type emergency) when entering into a shelter. Pets will be kept in different shelters than people. To my knowledge, there is no other exception.

 

[windriverrange]

GIPRAW, interesting thing about the Pyr on our backpacking trip to Wyoming in September....and yes he does bark quite a bit (saw some moose at dusk one day and went crazy barking). On our last day we were walking along "Loops Trail" on the lower Green Lake, came around a corner and in the middle of the trail was a small Grizzly Bear, maybe 200 pounds. The GP just stopped, no barking nothing and then set. Was pretty cool really as he was only about 25 feet away from the bear. Since I was a bit behind the dog the bear was probably 30 or so feet from me. The pisser was I had my fisheye lens on the camera and by the time the bear had moved off the trail I was only able to get one decent pic.

Anyway, there have been two grizzly bear sightings in this area in the last 30+ years and they were all during the week before and during the backpacking trip we took. Funny that I lived in Jackson Hole for 5 years, went to Yellowstone numerous times and only once saw a grizzly bear sow with two cubs....they were about 1 mile away and even with a telephoto (400mm) they look like flies in my pictures. Now I get a chance to dam near pet one and have the wrong lens on the camera.

The GP carried a saddle bag with his own food as well and did great......can't wait to take him out again.

 

[p75formula]

Back before we had kids, my wife and I were guilty of treating our cat very very well.

When my kids were born things changed a bit for the Cat as they should. If he'd so much as made a threatening move at my new born son I would have snapped his little neck and threw him in the trash. Fortunately, he didn't.

When we moved and we had to go to the closing, I dropped the cat off at the new house's front porch and hoped he'd be there when we got back. We really just didn't have anything else to do with him. Unfortunately, he wasn't anywhere to be seen when we got back, but eventually he reappeared. My wife and I often joke about how we didn't also drop our 6 month old daughter off on the porch.

He's always been exceptionally great with our kids, especially for a cat. Even now, he follows my kids out every morning and waits for the bus with them. We joke that he's their "guard kitty" but I have no doubt he'd abandon them to save his own skin at the first sign of actual danger. Nevertheless, given his kind treatment of my children, I've rewarded him by keeping him around now for going on 11 years.

Bottom line is, if you can't see the difference between a child and a dog/cat, you either don't have a child and/or your priorities are truly and permanently screwed up. I'm the biggest sucker in the world for a nice playful dog, but I'd sacrifice every single one in the world for a single child.

 

[osumark]

To the extremely selfish pets are their kids, kick them outside and go do whatever you want fo life!!!

 

[JonnyVito]

To the extremely selfish pets are their kids, kick them outside and go do whatever you want fo life!!!

I love being judged. I love my dog and treat him so well because he brings happiness to me. He is a blessing that God has put in my life and I am here to provide him with a comfortable life. I took the responsibility on and accept the work that comes with it. I will do the same for my kid also when I chose to take that responsibility on as well. I would watch painting everyone with such a broad paint brush there chief.

 

[osumark]

I was joking. I have pets, but they're treated different than my kids. There are some people who are extreme animal lovers, I'm not one of them. I was referring to the upity ups, who treat animals like children. I could never spend $1000 to save a pet, it's just they way i was raised.

 

[Bitter Creek]

To quote Greg Giraldo, dogs are not like kids, first of all, no one ever ends up with a dog because they are too drunk to pull out

 

[JimmyBob]

I was joking. I have pets, but they're treated different than my kids. There are some people who are extreme animal lovers, I'm not one of them. I was referring to the upity ups, who treat animals like children. I could never spend $1000 to save a pet, it's just they way i was raised.

Paint much with a "broad brush"? Last time I checked, everyone has the right to spend "their" money, however they damned well want.

 

[SquinkY5786]

What pisses me off are people on Father's or Mother's day that post pictures of their dog. Don't insult people who work hard to be a great parent to their children by comparing it to having a dog.

 

[osumark]

Paint much with a "broad brush"? Last time I checked, everyone has the right to spend "their" money, however they damned well want.

Did I say they couldn't. It's just not me. I don't really care, but I will laugh at them. My cousin has a shitzu (sp) she had it registered as a service dog so she can take it with her everywhere. She's a country and western singer with no kids, I don't judge her, but I reserve the right to laugh at her when she goes to an estate sale and they tell her she can't bring her dog in, and she tells them but, "she's a registered service dog." They said, too bad. Lol. So you animal lovers, continue to love your animals, but if you put clothes on them and take Christmas pics with them I'll laugh at you.

 

[TPOKE]

What pisses me off are people on Father's or Mother's day that post pictures of their dog. Don't insult people who work hard to be a great parent to their children by comparing it to having a dog.

Years ago my sister in law told our Golden Retriever to "go to daddy" when they needed her to move out of the kitchen. I told her in a nice way that I had two kids and I am the dog's master, not it's father. We treated the dog like a loved family member, but not with all the perks. Everyone loved her and commented on well behaved she was. (not like my in laws dog who thought it was human and was perpetual pain in the ass, as is the current one)

 

[JimmyBob]

Years ago my sister in law told our Golden Retriever to "go to daddy" when they needed her to move out of the kitchen. I told her in a nice way that I had two kids and I am the dog's master, not it's father. We treated the dog like a loved family member, but not with all the perks. Everyone loved her and commented on well behaved she was. (not like my in laws dog who thought it was human and was perpetual pain in the ass, as is the current one)

LOL! We have a standard poodle and we both refer to "mom and dad" at times when talking to her. That said, there are no children in the household, so no one suffers from identity confusion.

 

[nathajw]

Years ago my sister in law told our Golden Retriever to "go to daddy" when they needed her to move out of the kitchen. I told her in a nice way that I had two kids and I am the dog's master, not it's father. We treated the dog like a loved family member, but not with all the perks. Everyone loved her and commented on well behaved she was. (not like my in laws dog who thought it was human and was perpetual pain in the ass, as is the current one)

I've debated breaking up with girls in the past because their dogs are terribly trained and just do whatever the hell they want and think they are an equal. Not following through with a command, letting it walk through a door in front and always lead, dragging around on a leash, not come when called, etc. Just no pack/alpha role. It's excruciating to watch.