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WW2 deaths by the numbers

Man, the Russians took a major beating. I didn't know it was THAT high. Very well done and thanks for posting!
 
That was well worth the time to watch.

I think it's pretty clear why the people of Russia/Soviet Union tend to claim credit for the defeat of the Nazis. They sure as hell paid the price in civilian and military deaths.

I often wonder if Hitler had not opened the Eastern Front, would the US, Britain and other allies had the manpower and firepower to stave off the invasion of Great Britain, without the Nazi military being diluted and unable to concentrate their efforts on their Western Front.

Remember Dunkirk happened nearly 1 year earlier (June 4, 1940) and England was on the ropes, prior to the US entering the war. Their battles in Northern Africa were hard underway, starting just six days after Dunkirk on June 10, 1940 they began battling the Nazi's and Italian forces for the oil which both sides needed to prosecute the war.

Yet, Hitler confident that he basically had control and an inevitable victory over what remained of a "free" (unoccupied) Western Europe, decided to open up against the Soviet Union (Operation Barbarossa) just one year later on June 22, 1941. I think a strong argument could be made that the actual turning point of the war and what ultimately saved the non-Soviet Allies, was the siege at Stalingrad. The Nazi high command had no alternative but to send troops that otherwise would have been available in Northern Africa and Western Europe to the Eastern Front to continue the attacks on Stalin's forces.

If Hitler just waits, I'm not too certain that most of Europe would have fallen and the US would have been forced into taking some sort of "truce" or negotiated end to the war, with England falling under Nazi rule.
 
SKC,

From where would the planes be deployed that would have been able to make it to Berlin (if not shot down en route)? That's the thing, if England falls in 1941/42 Germany would have been able to seize nearly all the territory in Europe and extended their grasp well into the Atlantic and Northern frontier. Their Luftwaffe would have had a time to regroup, resupply and presumably they once again would have had control of the oil fields of Northern Africa (and middle east). Never mind the fact that they would have begun production of fighter jets and bombers which would have run circles around the best planes we could field.

It changes the entire dynamic. It also means that they could have begun supplying their friends the Japanese with military advisers, weaponry, etc. which would have made our war in the Pacific much, much tougher.

So even if we come up with the A-Bomb in 1945, it would have been a near impossibility to have dropped them on Berlin or any other German city. The Air War in Europe was much of the deciding factor and without the bases in England and Scotland where pretty much all of our fighter and bomber squadrons were launched, we would have had no other place to put them (or places which would not have been incredibly vulnerable to attack and destruction.)

The far more likely scenario would have been German planes bombing our East Coast from seized positions in Canada's northeastern frontier.
 
SKC,

From where would the planes be deployed that would have been able to make it to Berlin (if not shot down en route)? That's the thing, if England falls in 1941/42 Germany would have been able to seize nearly all the territory in Europe and extended their grasp well into the Atlantic and Northern frontier. Their Luftwaffe would have had a time to regroup, resupply and presumably they once again would have had control of the oil fields of Northern Africa (and middle east). Never mind the fact that they would have begun production of fighter jets and bombers which would have run circles around the best planes we could field.

It changes the entire dynamic. It also means that they could have begun supplying their friends the Japanese with military advisers, weaponry, etc. which would have made our war in the Pacific much, much tougher.

So even if we come up with the A-Bomb in 1945, it would have been a near impossibility to have dropped them on Berlin or any other German city. The Air War in Europe was much of the deciding factor and without the bases in England and Scotland where pretty much all of our fighter and bomber squadrons were launched, we would have had no other place to put them (or places which would not have been incredibly vulnerable to attack and destruction.)

The far more likely scenario would have been German planes bombing our East Coast from seized positions in Canada's northeastern frontier.
Hitler had no designs on conquering North America. His main aim was to keep America out of their European war.

The first part of your position is sound, but postulating that we'd have had to beat them back out of Canada is a huge stretch.
 
100 Tons, I was writing that in effort to show that we could have been forced into some sort of truce or acknowledgment that we would have likely had to agree to Hitler's terms at some point. I don't think it's a stretch to think that in a few years Greenland/Iceland would have fallen, cut off from their European allies. (Hell, the Germans had bases in Greenland as it was, mostly weather monitoring, but it wouldn't be a stretch to think they could have used it as a staging area for long range bombing.)

What makes you think he ultimately would have stopped with Europe? The Germans were already working damned hard to establish working relationships with numerous South American countries and obviously the Japanese had their eyes on Australia, New Zealand and most places in between. They guy wanted to go down as the greatest leader in history and what makes you think that his ultimate goal wasn't to reduce virtually any possible challenge to his rule? That would have only really left the US and Canada as that threat.
 
Great video, tremendous perspective particularly the impacting wars as related to global population (both showing the devastation of the wars in medieval times as well as the relative peace since 1945).

Had Hitler avoided Barbarossa in June '41 I think England would have eventually been starved into submission with (presumably) enhanced Luftwaffe development as well as advanced u-boat designs such as the type XX. Germany might also have been able to put more resources into an atomic bomb program that could have potentially rivaled the Manhattan project.

But ultimately, Hitler and Stalin were going to fight eventually. Had Germany avoided that in 1941 or even 1942 the soviets might very well have attacked Germany on their own in '42 or perhaps '43. Many forget that the Soviets also attacked Poland to start WWII as part of the secret agreement with Germany, they are every bit as responsible for starting the war in the European theater (Finland invasion as well).
 
100 Tons, I was writing that in effort to show that we could have been forced into some sort of truce or acknowledgment that we would have likely had to agree to Hitler's terms at some point. I don't think it's a stretch to think that in a few years Greenland/Iceland would have fallen, cut off from their European allies. (Hell, the Germans had bases in Greenland as it was, mostly weather monitoring, but it wouldn't be a stretch to think they could have used it as a staging area for long range bombing.)

What makes you think he ultimately would have stopped with Europe? The Germans were already working damned hard to establish working relationships with numerous South American countries and obviously the Japanese had their eyes on Australia, New Zealand and most places in between. They guy wanted to go down as the greatest leader in history and what makes you think that his ultimate goal wasn't to reduce virtually any possible challenge to his rule? That would have only really left the US and Canada as that threat.
Because every single thing I've ever read paints Hitler's vision as dating back to earlier grand Germanic visions where they dominated much of Europe (not Britain) and into Soviet Russia. Those visions didn't include the British Isles or damn sure North or South America. It's purely speculation to say "yeah but he may've wanted Arizona and Peru too". Nothing indicates that he did. Besides, his generals would've killed him before they put troops on a boat to try and cross the Atlantic. They all thought Barbarossa was madness, much less pursuing trans-Atlantic dreams.
 
Haven't watched the video yet, but all very good points. As I have aged and reviewed WW2 history, it's easy to see the efforts of the red army can't be overlooked as a major factor in the defeat of Nazi Germany.

One thing I have always heard was that the red army was a pretty despicable bunch, those that encountered them feared them more than the Nazis to some degree. There are stories about villages being liberated from the Nazis by the Soviets only to end up raped and pillaged. And their sheer numbers are why there were so many casualties...I don't think they had the best training either. The typical Nazi soldier was better trained and hardened by war when going up against a similar US soldier early on in our involvement. They had better weaponry in the first engagements (some would say they had better weapons the whole time, just ran out of gas lol).

The German tanks were a great example of this. Their exterior was much more capable of withstanding a hit from our tank artillery. The Sherman tank was cheaper to build and we were rolling them out fast, but we had to....the tiger tanks the Germans commanded were impressive, and the 88mm cannons the Germans used were making Swiss cheese out of our armor.

I'm sure most of that is fairly common knowledge to those who are familiar with WW2 history. We really didn't get air superiority until the P51, and it was simply on par with Japanese zeroes and whatnot. Britain took a helluva hit prior to the U.S. Coming into the fray, I would imagine morale amongst the British troops was getting pretty damned low around 1941-42.
 
Hollywood, I don't necessarily disagree with your statement regarding how the bomb would get to Berlin, if at all. The Luftwaffe obviously would have been a bigger player in the situation than the Japanese were. My comment was more of an idea that the US would have been forced to have had discussions about an atomic solution in Europe rather than just Japan.

On a somewhat related note, I'm finally getting to visit Normandy next week. We will be spending 5 days (based in Honfleur) in that area. Will get to see Omaha, the American Cemetery, Point du Hoc, a museum or two in Caen/Bayeux, and Mont St Michel. Any other "must-see" places in that region?
 
Haven't watched the video yet, but all very good points. As I have aged and reviewed WW2 history, it's easy to see the efforts of the red army can't be overlooked as a major factor in the defeat of Nazi Germany.

One thing I have always heard was that the red army was a pretty despicable bunch, those that encountered them feared them more than the Nazis to some degree. There are stories about villages being liberated from the Nazis by the Soviets only to end up raped and pillaged. And their sheer numbers are why there were so many casualties...I don't think they had the best training either. The typical Nazi soldier was better trained and hardened by war when going up against a similar US soldier early on in our involvement. They had better weaponry in the first engagements (some would say they had better weapons the whole time, just ran out of gas lol).

The German tanks were a great example of this. Their exterior was much more capable of withstanding a hit from our tank artillery. The Sherman tank was cheaper to build and we were rolling them out fast, but we had to....the tiger tanks the Germans commanded were impressive, and the 88mm cannons the Germans used were making Swiss cheese out of our armor.

I'm sure most of that is fairly common knowledge to those who are familiar with WW2 history. We really didn't get air superiority until the P51, and it was simply on par with Japanese zeroes and whatnot. Britain took a helluva hit prior to the U.S. Coming into the fray, I would imagine morale amongst the British troops was getting pretty damned low around 1941-42.


All good points. I would also add the following as to why the Soviet casualties were so high:

1) The Nazis viewd Soviet POWs as subhuman. Existing sources suggest that some 5.7 million Soviet army personnel fell into German hands during World War II. Yet, as of January 1945, the German army reported that only about 930,000 Soviet POWs remained in German custody. That makes them the second largest group of victims behind the Nazi treatment of the Jewish people. This also differs greatly from the Nazi treatment of U.S. and British POWs who were treated not nearly as harshly.

2) Joseph Stalin & Order No. 227 - For some reason, Stalin thought it would be good for discipline to shoot his own retreating troops, adding to the already high casualties.
 
I'm highly interested in WW2 for many reasons, but one big one is the fact I had two uncles that fought in WW2. My mom was the baby of the family and in turn, I was the baby in all the cousins, so I had many older family members and my grandfather was born in 1898...not a typo lol. My uncle that I favor heavily in looks was one of the men who landed at Normandy. Interesting story, he got separated from his unit and fought and clawed for a couple weeks and then was found by himself behind enemy lines. He had pretty severe emotional trauma over all that and luckily the war was over after he recovered in the hospital and was sent home. He would never discuss it and I was told to never ask him about it directly....I only heard the stories as told to my grandmother and then on to the various aunts and uncles. He died shortly after I graduated high school and was never one to talk with the nieces and nephews much, so I never got even a chance to ask him about any of that. My other uncle was a tail gunner on a bomber that was shot down over Germany. He was in a POW camp and stated many times that the Nazis were unbelievably cruel to prisoners, himself included. He passed away when I was 12, again, never got a chance to discuss anything like that with him but simply heard the stories. Pretty soon, just like the WW1 veterans a few years back, we will only be left with the stories from that generation.
 
Very interestingly, PBS aired a program last night (Nazi Mega Weapons) on the building the fortifications along the Atlantic seawall to fend off an invasion. The program went into much detail about how Hitler had definitely screwed the pooch by NOT finishing off England and securing North Africa BEFORE he turned his attention to Stalin and the Soviets. I guess many of his generals had been warning and begging him not to do it on the timetable he wanted, but Hitler being Hitler.....

Churchill flat out goaded him, by loading up a destroyer packed with explosives and commandos and hitting a converted French Port they did a hell of a lot of damage in an attack the Germans never saw coming. After that, Hitler ordered his top military architect to start designing and building thousands of fortifications from along the French Coast line up to Norway, including some positions within the Arctic Circle.

They were only able to build about half of the bunkers, large gun placements and fortified positions as was required, but were simply out of manpower, materials and time by the time D-Day rolled around. The troops deployed on D-Day were in large part "second tier" formed primarily by teenagers and those over 30. Those in their 20's and at their peaks had been sent to the Eastern Front to fight the Soviets.

But holy hell, the bunkers they had built in the early days and some of the gun placements were frickin' amazing. Triple reinforced concrete over 10 ft deep, air intake shafts that when you dropped a grenade in, simply rolled out at the feet of the person who dropped it, amazing ability to move shells and gunpowder by the ton up 4 to 5 stories in less than a minute, load and fire their big guns (some as large or larger than on their biggest battle ships.) I was surprised how many were still in place and nearly functional as they had been sealed off after the war and preserved, especially one gun placement in Norway which had been fitted with 3 big guns taken off a Battleship. The ball bearings on which the gun moved in a circle were about the size of shot puts and the whole complex was massive, embedded in 15 ft or so of reinforced concrete the damned thing was near impervious to anything but a direct and exact hit, which would have been a near impossibility for any gun or bomb in action at the time.

And those fortresses would not have been necessary if GB had been taken out of the equation as their would have been NO place in the region where the allies navies, air forces or ground troops could have operated or staged ongoing resistance to the Nazi's control of Europe. It was kind of weird in a way, I had no idea about the show, but they damned near covered every point I made the other day in my initial post. If England is taken out, he holds out on attacking the Soviets for a year or two, the war almost certainly goes down an entirely different way. By diluting his forces, he almost certainly doomed their chance to win (thankfully, he had such a group of ass-kissers and boot-lickers around him that they couldn't bring themselves to stand up to him and tell him when he was wrong.)
 
The manhattan project was always intended to counter/be used against Germany. The B29s were also intended for Europe. However, the pace of the war vs Germany shifted both to japan.

WWII was decided in 1942, it can be argued Germany had no chance of defeating Russia after the winter '41 counteroffensive outside Moscow.
 
Just returned from the trip and we absolutely loved the Normandy region. Absolutely mind boggling to imagine that many kids rushing those beaches in '44 and not thinking anything about it. They did it because their country asked them to. Different generation now.

Point du Hoc was really awesome. Walking among the bomb craters and seeing the cliffs the Rangers climbed that day. Very impressive. I'll post a few pics when I can.
 
SKC,

I hope I get the chance to visit there one day, but first on my list is the town in Scotland (if there's anything still there) where my dad's B-17 squadron was located. I would like to see the countryside if nothing else and imagine what it must have been like as an active bomber base during the War. There may be some who were just kids at the time who are still alive who have memories of the place like it was, but those days are fast slipping away.

Look forward to the pics
 
Here's a few:

Omaha Beach
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Looking west along the seawall on Omaha Beach. By far the nicest beach that we saw (Omaha, Juno, Sword).
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Looking back towards the monuments at Omaha
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Low tide on Omaha
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Point du Hoc. I'll have to get the pics from my other camera that we took here. Huge bomb craters all over the place.
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American Cemetery

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This was a non-WW2 location we visited, Etretat. It's a small community just north of La Havre that is a popular stop because of the 3 natural arches. Two of which you can see in the pics.
Would love to golf there. :)
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The previous pic was taken from near the chapel up on the hill, looking back towards the location this one is taken from.
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Thanks SKC, as impressive as your photos are, I'm sure they pale on comparison to seeing it for yourself - if just for the scale of the place if nothing else.
 
... if just for the scale of the place if nothing else.

I would completely agree with that statement. Not only just standing on Omaha (or any of the other beaches for that matter), but just driving through the region you truly see how large of an operation it was. Just seeing the hedgerows that caused so many issues right after the invasion, the dozens of bunkers all over the place, just the terrain in general that made it difficult to move a large army very quickly was amazing to see. Can't wait to return to see many of the things we missed.
 
That natural archway created by the rocks is really neat. Reminds of that scene in pirates of the Caribbean where they hung the dead pirates...
 
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