Game of Thrones 5/3/15

[FMPoke]

They weren't kidding when they said people still alive in the books were going to die. Last night saw the demise of Sir Barristan and possibly Grey Worm. Not before Sir Barristan told Danny stories of her brother the noble Rhaegar. The Rhaegar backstory was farther filled in by Littlefinger with Sansa at the crypt of her aunt and his lover Lyanna Stark. We also learned more of Littlefingers true plan and Sansa's role. Makes more sense now but still not looking that good for Sansa. Plan A Stantis will come free you and name you wardeness of the north when unsaid I will come back and marry you. (gross). Plan B if that doesn't work out just go ahead and marry Ramsey. How bad can it be? (grosser).

Meanwhile on the Real Housewifes of Kings Landing Cersie gave the high sparrow an Army, pissed off the Iron Bank and had her ex lover and Margery's brother thrown in church jail. Margery sent the boy king to free him and when he didn't come through cut him off and played the grandma card. That's really a cruel way to treat a 14 year old king. Life was a lot simpler when he just played with Sir Ponce and stamp royal decrees.

Nice scene with Stantis and his daughter. Unfortunately in this series when anyone has a touching moment you know they are just sitting up something horrible to happen to one of them. The Slut Princess of Fire seems to be way to interested in the kid.

Always entertaining to see the Jamie and Bronn road show, they are the new Hope and Crosby, and we got our first glince of the sand snakes.

Overall solid episode that advance the story significantly.

 

[JonnyVito]

I really liked the episode last night. I think the gray scale is going to be explained this year and I think you will see the grey scale dudes on the river also and there is something to them and the lord of light. Just seemed odd that the Red Priestess would tell Stannis wife that the Lord of Light doesn't care about the grey scale. That or they are foreshadowing a confrontation between Stannis and the Red Priestess when she tries to kill his daughter.

Also I don't think Grey Worm dies. I hated to see Sir Barristan fall. Do you guys think that is how they (the show) is letting the viewers know the Sons of the Harpy are a real threat??

 

[Cowpoke]

I was sad to see Selmy go, but I guess it was bound to happen, too important of a character to just sit there and do nothing forever. Do something or die. The actor may have decided he wanted out. I'm really, really interested to see if Tyrion really makes it to Denarys, or if he ends up on a round about path as in the books. Talk about shortening a story line.

Last week I thought Little Finger's plan was to have Sansa kill the Boltons, then he would rush in to marry her and then march the Norh + the Vale to Kings landing for war. That just didnt seem like a good bet at all. No way would he trust Sansa to do something that brave. It takes more than black hair and dresses to become a bad ass killer. Now that we know he knows Stannis is coming, it makes more sense. Let Stannis kill the Boltons, Sansa is in place already so Stannis wont put someoen else in Winterfell. Go marry Sansa, wait till Stannis and the Lannisters' armies decimate one another, then sweep in with the North + the Vale. If that is his plan....hell thats not a bad idea.

 

[Cowpoke]

Oh did the Red Butterface hit on Snow like that in the books? Getting to be a bit too predictable and makes the character a bit weaker IMO.

 

[cornichon]

I started getting really excited when Littlefinger started talking about the tourney in Harrenhal. He made this weird face when Sansa said that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. I thought for a split second we were about to get confirmation (or at least a little more insight) into a long-held theory involving those two. Oh well, it was a nice little tease anyway.

And I wonder if Grey Worm and/or Selmy actually died. They could easily be found and fixed up, I would think. They made a special point of showing Grey Worm getting to Selmy before his throat was cut, so I actually assumed they were both going to make it.

 

[Been Jammin]

I agree that Grey Worm will survive. Doesn't make a lot of sense to develop his affection for Missandei if they were going to kill him off.

I don't see the point in killing of Selmy, but I didn't see the point in killing off Jon's buddies (Gren/Pyp), or Jojen, last season. I am guessing that HBO is simply trying to control cost by eliminating secondary actors as they bring new actors into the story.

As each episode occurs, this season, it is becoming more and more clear that HBO is getting further and further off track from the books. They may know where the path ends for specific characters, but they either don't know, or don't care, about how Martin intends to get the characters to those points. I think it is very possible that the show has a very different ending from the books. HBO will decide that their changes will force them to go in a different direction with certain characters, or Martin will make some key changes from the original outline he (supposedly) gave to HBO.

In last night's episode, the interaction between Jaime/Bron and between Mormont/Tyrion was the best part. The parts with Tyrion were very similar to interactions that occurred in the books.

@JonnyVito ....I don't think we are going to see that stone men on the river. That stuff all happened before Tyrion was taken by Mormont. They could find a way to squeeze that in, but I suspect that the Greyscale will be a minor player for HBO, going forward.

It is going to be interesting to watch Sansa, in upcoming episodes, now that Littlefinger is going to be gone from Winterfell. Looking forward to the point where she recognizes Theon. That is going to be a great scene, as will watching their interactions after that.

 

[Been Jammin]

Oh did the Red Butterface hit on Snow like that in the books? .

Not really. She flirted with him a bit, but never really tried to seduce him.

 

[Been Jammin]

I started getting really excited when Littlefinger started talking about the tourney in Harrenhal. He made this weird face when Sansa said that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. I thought for a split second we were about to get confirmation (or at least a little more insight) into a long-held theory involving those two. Oh well, it was a nice little tease anyway.

And I wonder if Grey Worm and/or Selmy actually died. They could easily be found and fixed up, I would think. They made a special point of showing Grey Worm getting to Selmy before his throat was cut, so I actually assumed they were both going to make it.

Selmy is definitely gone. The previews for next week showed him laying on a stone table and surrounded by mourners. GW wasn't there, however, so I figure he survived.

 

[JonnyVito]

@JonnyVito ....I don't think we are going to see that stone men on the river. That stuff all happened before Tyrion was taken by Mormont. They could find a way to squeeze that in, but I suspect that the Greyscale will be a minor player for HBO, going forward.

@Been Jammin I am thinking they are going to do it backwards because it looked like to me that Tyrion and Mormont are traveling the river at this time so I was thinking they might still show the stone men it would just be a different order of events. I might just be hoping though as I really enjoyed Tyrion's story and Dani's story at this stage in the series.

 

[cornichon]

Oh, I never watch the previews of future weeks, so I didn't know about Selmy.

As for the show getting "off track" from the books, I feel like you say the same thing most weeks and that you're trying to convince yourself at this point that the show won't spoil the books. It's been reported over and over that Martin gave the showrunners detailed synopses about the story going forward. I'm sure those may not have included all the minor characters, but I'd bet they know the major beats for all the major characters. I doubt those change much in the books unless Martin decides he needs to switch things up to maintain interest in the books.

 

[Been Jammin]

Oh, I never watch the previews of future weeks, so I didn't know about Selmy.

As for the show getting "off track" from the books, I feel like you say the same thing most weeks and that you're trying to convince yourself at this point that the show won't spoil the books. It's been reported over and over that Martin gave the showrunners detailed synopses about the story going forward. I'm sure those may not have included all the minor characters, but I'd bet they know the major beats for all the major characters. I doubt those change much in the books unless Martin decides he needs to switch things up to maintain interest in the books.

I'm not trying to convince myself of anything. Just trying to make predictions. I'm sure you saw GRRM's outline letter for the entire series. The one he presented to the publisher before he even wrote the first book. Obviously, there are already a lot of differences from that outline to the end of book 5. If he gave HBO details 6 or 7 years ago, it seems logical that some changes would occur as his written characters evolve. On top of that, HBO has to make changes simply due to limitations in budget and in transferring the story from written to visual. They run into issues with the viewer not being able to read the mind of the character, so they sometimes get creative in trying to show us things that GRRM doesn't have to show us (like detailed torture of Theon by Ramsay). OR...they make significant changes to the story (like substituting Sansa for Jeyne Pool). In addition, now that GRRM clearly knows that HBO is going to beat him to the punch, it is only natural that he will be inclined to find ways to make the books differ from (and superior to) the show. I am not saying that the show won't give us a bunch of book spoilers. Just saying that every episode gives me more and more of an indication that the HBO version and the GRRM version, of the story, will end up being vastly different.

 

[cornichon]

I guess your definition and mine of "vastly" differ.

 

[cornichon]

One thing I read elsewhere that I thought was interesting was the point that Meryn Trant is now taking Mace Tyrell to Braavos, where Arya is. We saw in last week's episode that Trant is still on Arya's list of enemies to kill.

 

[Cowpoke]

I'm glad the Cercie / sparrows story line is playing out. I was afraid that might get cut given how they have made her a less evil and more human character than in the books. A bit of a twist obviously, but it looks like the path we'll be similar. I'mguessing this twist cuts the Loras to Dragonstone arc, but that's good imo.

 

[Been Jammin]

One thing I read elsewhere that I thought was interesting was the point that Meryn Trant is now taking Mace Tyrell to Braavos, where Arya is. We saw in last week's episode that Trant is still on Arya's list of enemies to kill.

Very nice pickup. I was thinking that the whole point of that storyline was that Cersei was going to have Trant murder MT since she hates his daughter so much. Having his death happen away from KL would reduce the chances that anyone would discover that she was behind it. What you pointed out makes much more sense.

 

[FMPoke]

I don't think the ending will be drastically different. I think its more the path to the ending will be more simplified and straightforward. My guess is GRRM has given them the ending and the five or so key figures who will play out in it. Between now and then they can skip entire plot lines like the whole iron island saga, simplify others like Tyrion journey leaving out minor characters or simply substitute major characters like Sansa for minor ones like Jenny Poole. While GRRM can always add another chapter or even split a book into two the show runners basically have ten hours a year to tell the story. If the show is going to run seven seasons they have 30 hours give or take including this year to get to the end. That means the are going to have to make choices. What's important and effect the actual outcome and what's just a side story? At some point soon they have to start working backwards from the end to make sure they have allocated the time properly. Otherwise you end up with the last three seasons of Lost.

 

[JonnyVito]

I have one question on Jon Snow. So if he is in fact the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar then how is it possible that his hand got burnt? Know I know Dani's brother was killed by being burned to death by gold so does this mean that really only special Targaryens are fire proof? This fact really bothers me about Dani's brother and it also makes me really question Jon Snows parents. Just wondering if there is an explanation on this.

 

[Been Jammin]

I have one question on Jon Snow. So if he is in fact the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar then how is it possible that his hand got burnt? Know I know Dani's brother was killed by being burned to death by gold so does this mean that really only special Targaryens are fire proof? This fact really bothers me about Dani's brother and it also makes me really question Jon Snows parents. Just wondering if there is an explanation on this.

I would say that the easy answer is that some Targaryeans are immune to fire and some are not. I think this has been established in not only A Song of Ice and Fire, but, also, in other Westeros stories by GRRM (World of Ice and Fire, Dunk and Egg Tales, etc). My impression is that inability to be burned is within the gene pool of the Targaryeans, but doesn't always manifest for every member of the family.

 

[cornichon]

I have one question on Jon Snow. So if he is in fact the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar then how is it possible that his hand got burnt? Know I know Dani's brother was killed by being burned to death by gold so does this mean that really only special Targaryens are fire proof? This fact really bothers me about Dani's brother and it also makes me really question Jon Snows parents. Just wondering if there is an explanation on this.

Nothing official, but here's an answer I found online:

Targaryens are not immune to fire. What happened to Daenerys on the funeral pyre was a one-time event, according to the author, who's discussed it at fan events. So Daenerys herself isn't immune to fire either (and the thing with the eggs, where she isn't burned, IS NOT in the books). Plenty of Targaryens have been killed because of fire or extreme heat: Viserys, Aerion Brightflame who drank wildfire, Aegon V and his son Prince Duncan who died in a fire at Summerhall, and Rhaenyra Targaryen who was fed to her brother's dragon. So it's not that Viserys should have been fireproof, it's that NO Targ is inherently fireproof.

 

[cornichon]

Very nice pickup. I was thinking that the whole point of that storyline was that Cersei was going to have Trant murder MT since she hates his daughter so much. Having his death happen away from KL would reduce the chances that anyone would discover that she was behind it. What you pointed out makes much more sense.

I think that is definitely Cersei's plan. Even if Arya kills Trant, I guess both could happen. You remember the books better than I: what does Mace do in the books that he hasn't done yet in the show?

 

[JonnyVito]

Thanks guys that helps.

 

[Been Jammin]

I think that is definitely Cersei's plan. Even if Arya kills Trant, I guess both could happen. You remember the books better than I: what does Mace do in the books that he hasn't done yet in the show?

Nothing that I remember, other than making a stink when Marjory get's accused of having multiple lovers (including her female cousins). None of that has happened in the show, but in the books, he made enough noise that I think her "trial" was expedited and she was exonerated fairly quickly (while Cersei was still confined).

In the books, I think Mace is much more important due to being one of few lords who has a sizeable army not currently in disarray or committed in battle. Having him on your side is a big deal, because House Tyrell has the ability to completely turn the tide of a battle, and not many other factions have that ability. Of course, he also has money and his lands have not yet been exposed to the cold of winter, meaning he has the resources to feed a large number of people. Really, he is currently one of the best positioned Westerosi Lords. More powerful and important than he seems to appreciate.

 

[Cowpoke]

Nothing official, but here's an answer I found online:

Targaryens are not immune to fire. What happened to Daenerys on the funeral pyre was a one-time event, according to the author, who's discussed it at fan events. So Daenerys herself isn't immune to fire either (and the thing with the eggs, where she isn't burned, IS NOT in the books). Plenty of Targaryens have been killed because of fire or extreme heat: Viserys, Aerion Brightflame who drank wildfire, Aegon V and his son Prince Duncan who died in a fire at Summerhall, and Rhaenyra Targaryen who was fed to her brother's dragon. So it's not that Viserys should have been fireproof, it's that NO Targ is inherently fireproof.

It was certainly hinted in a couple of spots that she is atleast resistant to heat. The story goes out of its way to talk about how hot the bath water was she stepped into but that she welcomed it. She imediatly remarked that her brother was "No Dragon" when he died by the melting gold, which always made me think she knew already that she couldn't get burned, and was supriseed that he did.

 

[TheRedSon]

Mace does nothing important in the books. He's a joke, and that's basically the point with him. Brilliant mother. Beautiful, gifted children (including two sons not in the show). Extreme wealth. The bread basket of Westeros for a kingdom. Arguably the three most powerful vassals in all Westeros sworn to him... And the man is a bafoon.

I mean think about it... Who beat Robert on the field in the Rebellion? Tarly, sworn to Mace Tyrell. What did Mace do in the war? He besieged Storm's End. He kept 500ish rebel troops and Stannis locked up (along with Lord Tarly and a perhaps as much as half of the troops loyal to the Targaryens) while Rhaegar and the loyalists died at the Trident.

Who controls the largest navy outside of the Iron Islands and the crown itself? Redwyne. Which is why in the books Cersi sends Redwyne and his fleet with Loras to Dragonstone instead of back home to defend it from the Ironborn.

 

[MegaPoke]

I really need to stop drinking when I watch this show.

 

[JonnyVito]

Here is an interesting article on how HBO is going rogue and there is really nothing Martin could do. Been you might be right that the books and HBO will vary greatly....

http://au.ibtimes.com/game-thrones-...divergence-tv-series-author-has-no-power-stop

 

[Orange Jennyslipper]

I've decided to settle back and enjoy the ride. I've moved the stack of books away from the easy chair and tv and put them back on the shelf.

Trying to reconcile every discrepancy between the books and the show has become a mental exercise for which I have neither the time nor the brains.

Martin will never finish the books. Maybe his editor will finish them. She seems to be the only one who's pissed about it. There are thousands of English majors and fiction fans who, after reading the first several thousand pages of this story, could finish it in one of several hundred ways and no one would be the wiser. Even Shakespeare had knock-offs stand for hundreds of years before their discovery.

HBO will wrap up in two more seasons. Three at the very, very outside.

 

[JonnyVito]

I've decided to settle back and enjoy the ride. I've moved the stack of books away from the easy chair and tv and put them back on the shelf.

Trying to reconcile every discrepancy between the books and the show has become a mental exercise for which I have neither the time nor the brains.

Martin will never finish the books. Maybe his editor will finish them. She seems to be the only one who's pissed about it. There are thousands of English majors and fiction fans who, after reading the first several thousand pages of this story, could finish it in one of several hundred ways and no one would be the wiser. Even Shakespeare had knock-offs stand for hundreds of years before their discovery.

HBO will wrap up in two more seasons. Three at the very, very outside.

I was reading something the other day and they had said that Martin will be known as a World Creator rather then a writer. Now I can't remember the quote word for word but I took it as Martin is more into creating worlds then actually writing the novels and it was the first time I thought man this guy really doesn't care if he ever finishes the books. What matters to him is the credit for the world he created rather then the story told.

 

[Orange Jennyslipper]

I was reading something the other day and they had said that Martin will be known as a World Creator rather then a writer. Now I can't remember the quote word for word but I took it as Martin is more into creating worlds then actually writing the novels and it was the first time I thought man this guy really doesn't care if he ever finishes the books. What matters to him is the credit for the world he created rather then the story told.

That's interesting. He's certainly created a host of characters that millions around the world care very deeply about.

 

[Been Jammin]

I am pretty sure that GRRM is busting his tail to get WoW finished and released. I will be very surprised if it is not available in 2016. At that point, when he only has 1 more book, it would seem unlikely that he would just give up on finishing the series. If he lives another 5 years, I figure we will all get to see his conclusion to the story.

As far as HBO goes, I agree that they will wrap it up in 2 more seasons. They seem to be in the process of eliminating more characters than they are introducing every season. By the end of this season, they may have the cast pretty much whittled down to about 12 characters whose fate the viewer actually cares about. That gives them 20 more episodes to tie up all the loose ends regarding those characters.

 

[TheRedSon]

I'm pretty sure that Martin's version of "busting his tail" is very different from most of us, and vastly different from someone like Stephen King or the the up and comers in his own genre like Peter V Brett and Brandon Sanderson.

 

[FMPoke]

What happening with the differences between the book and the TV series adaptation is not at all unusual. In almost every movie the story is simplified, characters combined or even dropped, plots and even endings changed. No author has control over the adaptation of his work. What is so unique about this is that the TV series and books are now being completed at the same time. Normally the movie/TV team has a completed product to work with. Everyone who is a fan of the book knows how it ends. You go see the movie as a completely difference experience. Here if you are a reader and a watcher like many of us it is now like you are watching / reading two different version of the same story at the same time.

 

[Orange Jennyslipper]

... Everyone who is a fan of the book knows how it ends. You go see the movie as a completely difference experience...

I had to laugh thinking about King's "The Shining." In the book, the head chef of the hotel returns at the end and rescues the wife and son from the deranged Mr. Torrance.

Imagine the reader's surprise, when in the movie the chef, played by Scatman Caruthers, shows up to save the day and Jack Nicholson steps out from behind a marble column and plants a fireman's axe about six inches deep in Scatman's sternum. WooHoo! Now got ourselves a MOVIE!