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Game of Thrones 5/17

FMPoke

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Some small surprises as we continue to diverge from the books.

The arrest of Margaery was a twist I didn't see coming. In the month leading up to the show all we heard about was Cersei's walk of shame being one of the big moments for the season. They may still get there but right now it appears she's winning the battle for control of Tommen. He looks hopelessly lost as King.

No kidnapping of Princess Marcella by the Sand Snakes eliminates another complete book plot. Not sure where the whole Dorne plot line is going. I know they had to simplify it from the books but they have cut it down to so little it doesn't really seem to add anything.

Littlefinger is playing everyone against everyone else. Not sure if he really hedging with Cersei or just trying to lead her army north in a ambush.

Arya back in the game this week although it's hard to tell where that storyline is going in connection with the big picture.

The deflowering / rape of Sansa was the most uncomfortable scene yet. They are clearly setting the Boltons up as the ultimate bad guys but that was hardcore even for GOT. Far beyond the Cersei / Jamie scene that cause some much controversy last year. At least Jamie and Cersei had history plus we didn't like her anyway. Sansa is everyone's little girl.
 
Some small surprises as we continue to diverge from the books.

The arrest of Margaery was a twist I didn't see coming. In the month leading up to the show all we heard about was Cersei's walk of shame being one of the big moments for the season. They may still get there but right now it appears she's winning the battle for control of Tommen. He looks hopelessly lost as King.

No kidnapping of Princess Marcella by the Sand Snakes eliminates another complete book plot. Not sure where the whole Dorne plot line is going. I know they had to simplify it from the books but they have cut it down to so little it doesn't really seem to add anything.

Littlefinger is playing everyone against everyone else. Not sure if he really hedging with Cersei or just trying to lead her army north in a ambush.

Arya back in the game this week although it's hard to tell where that storyline is going in connection with the big picture.

The deflowering / rape of Sansa was the most uncomfortable scene yet. They are clearly setting the Boltons up as the ultimate bad guys but that was hardcore even for GOT. Far beyond the Cersei / Jamie scene that cause some much controversy last year. At least Jamie and Cersei had history plus we didn't like her anyway. Sansa is everyone's little girl.

On Margaery: Sounds like maybe you forgot (maybe not), but Margaery was also arrested in the books. The reason was different, but it was all set up by Cersei. I felt like Cersei also played a part in M's arrest last night, but maybe that was just because I had read the books.

On Myrcella/Dorne: In the books, it wasn't the Sand Snakes that kidnapped her. It was Doran's daughter (and her friends). I felt that last night's Dorne action was the worst thing HBO has done so far. The storyline was stupid. The fighting scene was cheesy, especially the conclusion where Hotah swings his axe and stops just before making contact with Jaime's neck. I thought it was ridiculous that Doran's son didn't say something along the lines of "why are you 2 dressed as Dornish soldiers?" instead of "I was not told that Myrcella's uncle would be visiting (paraphrased)". I thought it was ridiculous that the Sand Snakes would opt to prowl the Water Gardens at the very moment that Jaime/Bronn arrived.

Not sure what HBO is doing with Littlefinger. Maybe he is being consistent with the LF of the books, who is a master at turning factions against each other. I really have a tough time believing that GRRM's LF, would leave Sansa with the Boltons or tell Cersei that she is now in Winterfell. Him ever becoming the Warden of the North is laughable. Like any of the Northern Lords would ever support him. But, maybe he doesn't think it is realistic and this is just part of his plan. Who knows?

On Arya: Things are moving much faster for her than in the books, but I guess that is to be expected. It seems like they skipped the part where she drinks the potion and becomes blind while she trains. That is too bad, as it would have been really cool to see that part of her story, especially the part where she wargs into the cat in order to get the best of her master/trainer. My guess is that when next we see her, she will have the scene where she puts on a new face and begins to learn what it means to be an assassin.

On Sansa: I totally agree with you. That was hard to watch. I was half expecting Ramsay to make Theon "get her ready for him" like he did in the books, but couldn't figure out how they would pull that scene off with the limitations they have. I still can't believe HBO made her suffer through being engaged to Joffrey, be in the clutches of pedophile Littlefinger and now this. At least she was wed to Tyrion, who treated her well, in between. Theon has really become one of my favorite HBO characters. The actor does a great job of playing his part. You can just see him wrestling with every word/action as he struggles internally between the old Theon and the completely beaten down Reek.
 
I've said it multiple times, LF, does not give a rats behind about Sansa, she is simply a card to play. Hell he made sure that the Lanisters suspect she was in on the muder of Joffry. Also, I don't think he plans on being warden of the North for long, his eyes are on KL and he hopes the North and the Vale will fight for him for Sansa. IMO this is the most intriguing and most well acted story line right now.

That scene was the toughest to watch so far IMO. I don't think they will go near as far with her torture as they did Jeyne, but they made it clear that Ramsay is not going to be hands off as some thought might happen.

The whole Dorne thing is lame. The actresses suck. It seems as if it were all handed to an intern to write.

They better damn well work in the blind Arya thing, her training is the best part about this point in the books. I bet they skip the warging though since they havn't shown her dreams through Nymeria thus far like in the books. It would just come out of left field if she somehow had that ability all ofa sudden.

I was enjoying the Tyrion/Jorah trip but the capture last night seems a bit half assed too for some reason.
 
agreed the Dorne stuff is weak. I am not sure how I feel about all this yet. I still think Red Wedding is the hardest thing I have had to watch on there as an unborn baby was killed in the mothers womb. The Sansa scene last night was number 2.
 
I think it was harder for me since there was some suspense as to whether it was going to happen. With the red weedding you knew it was going to happen, and there really wasn't a lot of character development with Rob and his wife. Cat being murdered was the worst part of that for me. Sansa has had 4 years of character development and we've literally seen her grow from kid to young woman, I agree with whoever said Theon is great. Really, He, Ramsey and Roose are well acted. I think thats why I like that story line the best right now. Plus its all new to book readers so there is more suspense.
 
In the books I remember the whole purpose of Cersei's plot was to set Margaery up as an adulteries however I thought it backfired when her witness confessed the truth of having had a affair with Cersei after being whipped and tortured. I had forgotten she was actually arrested but quickly released under house arrest. The focus quickly turned to Cersei. The TV version at least at this point has a much different feel mostly I think because of the different roles of Loras and Tommen.

The aging up of the Baratheon children is starting to show significantly. In the book Tommen was naïve and pretty much unaware of the conflict between his mother and wife. Here he is in great conflict and ultimately being revealed as weak by his mother plot. Cersei seem utterly unaware or unconcerned that she his completely undermining her son strength and ability to rule. Likewise with Myrcella last night for the first time we saw her as a teenager in love instead of the innocent child of the books. In both their cases the side effect of this aging up is it makes it much harder to believe that they have no idea that Jamie is their father not their uncle. Everyone seems to know this except them. At some point as teenagers you would think they would have figured this out.
 
I think Tomen wil figure it out very quickly. Joffry did. The yelling of "abomination", etc by the worshipers was a hint that he will find out IMO. They story is taking a different path but will end up in the same spot as the books IMo with Cercie being arrested for her relations with Jamie and Lancell, Loras being injured, and Margaery getting out ( I think she was released in the books anyway).

The queen of thorns didnt travel all that way just to be out manuvered by Cercie.

Something i dont get though is the way Margaery ended up getting sent to prison. It was obviously a settup, the only reason they asked her to testify was to get her to lie, then have the boy toy come in and prove it a lie. But who's plan was that? I don't think they are under Cercies control, and what motivation do they have to set Margaery up?
 
That was setup by Cersei I am almost positive. In the books the Sparrows come to power because Cersei ignored them but the way the show has played out it is like she empowered them and is working with them IMO. I think Margaery confesses and Loras is injured in trial by combat. I also think that in next one or two episodes Little finger betrays Cersei and gives them a witness to her sins.
 
Last scene was really disturbing. Considering everything that has occurred in the series I was surprised at how I felt as it went to credits.
 
That was setup by Cersei I am almost positive. In the books the Sparrows come to power because Cersei ignored them but the way the show has played out it is like she empowered them and is working with them IMO. I think Margaery confesses and Loras is injured in trial by combat. I also think that in next one or two episodes Little finger betrays Cersei and gives them a witness to her sins.

She certainly empowered them, but I don't think they are... or I hope they are not being guided by her. Lancell is much more prominent in their org in the show, so it will be interesting to see if he admits they had relations.
 
She certainly empowered them, but I don't think they are... or I hope they are not being guided by her. Lancell is much more prominent in their org in the show, so it will be interesting to see if he admits they had relations.

I think Lancel is totally going to be the impetus behind getting Cersei imprisoned. There really is no other character, in the show, that can testify against her. Of course, there are the rumors about her and Jaime, but Jaime won't testify against her, and there is no way to prove that it is more than rumors.

I did have one issue with Margaery being imprisoned. If Cersei was behind it (which seems likely), then why would the High Sparrow believe/care enough about Cersei to go along with her plan and imprison a possibly innocent girl/queen? Even if Cersei wasn't behind it, all the High Sparrow has is the word of a squire vs. the word of Margaery/Loras. The birthmark was Loras' undoing, but there is no way to prove that Margaery knew about Loras' homosexuality. He could be lying about Margaery being aware of what Loras was up to. Imprisoning the queen, based only on the word of a squire, would seem to be a huge risk by the High Sparrow. I would have preferred that HBO had Cersei pay off some guys to testify against Marg in order to get her imprisoned. That would have been easy for HBO to do and would have made more sense (and it would be clear that Cersei was behind it).
 
Also by Littlefingers involvement I meant more that his words to Lancel will get him to confess to the High Sparrow. That interaction just seemed to foreshadow that to me. Also we know it is going to happen because the issue being in the news of Cersei walking naked.

@beenjammin I also wonder about why he went along with arresting Margaery but with the laziness of that episode I chalked it off to them being lazy and trying to get back on track to the story in the books.
 
I did have one issue with Margaery being imprisoned. If Cersei was behind it (which seems likely), then why would the High Sparrow believe/care enough about Cersei to go along with her plan and imprison a possibly innocent girl/queen? Even if Cersei wasn't behind it, all the High Sparrow has is the word of a squire vs. the word of Margaery/Loras. The birthmark was Loras' undoing, but there is no way to prove that Margaery knew about Loras' homosexuality. He could be lying about Margaery being aware of what Loras was up to. Imprisoning the queen, based only on the word of a squire, would seem to be a huge risk by the High Sparrow. I would have preferred that HBO had Cersei pay off some guys to testify against Marg in order to get her imprisoned. That would have been easy for HBO to do and would have made more sense (and it would be clear that Cersei was behind it).


That was exactly my issue with it. If Cercie planned it it means they are bending to her will, which is hard for me to imagine, the High Sparrow doesnt seem to be the puppet type. Or he had some reason himself for wanting to imprison her. I don't see what the Sparrow gains by going after her. Granted, that wasn't an actual trial, more of an Arraignment, but still. I agree with Vito, it seemed kind of sloppy, but will be interesting to see how it plays out.
 
@beenjammin I also wonder about why he went along with arresting Margaery but with the laziness of that episode I chalked it off to them being lazy and trying to get back on track to the story in the books.

Exactly. I think HBO is really showing some chinks in their armor this season and it is becoming more apparent as the season goes on. Prior to this season, they had the books to refer to, and it was all about telling GRRM's story but making necessary changes due to the different medium.

They had to combine characters' stories in order to prevent the viewer from having to keep up with too many characters and to prevent HBO from having to pay 2 different actors. (like Gendry and Robert's other bastard who Davos rescued from Melisandre). They had to cut out certain parts of the story that they viewed as tangential (like all of Balon Greyjoy's brothers and the Kingsmoot and Lady Stoneheart and the fighting in the Riverlands). They have fleshed out some storylines due to the viewer not being able to read the mind of the character (Like Theon's torture by Ramsay).

However, now they are getting to a point where they don't have as much GRRM outline to lean on (especially with Jaime and Brienne). In addition, GRRM's books get longer with each subsequent book and HBO only has 10 episodes per season meaning they have to cut more and more and condense more and more. They want to get each character from point A to point B, but are having to be creative in how to make that happen, and some of the writing is suffering badly. The entire Dorne storyline has been awful so far. The Cersei/Margaery/High Sparrow storyline is really suffering from their attempts at condensation. I would say the same thing about the Jon Snow storyline,
 
I also wonder if some of this "laziness" is not having GRRM do an episode like years past. IMO he kinda reigns them back in from the lose tangents they get on with combining characters and cutting out others.

Also I have a theory on Sansa now. What if just what if they do combine more characters into one. Now what if Ramsey has Sansa killed and torn up by the hounds after he hunts her and kills her. Then leaves her where she is found by the Red priestess with Stanis and boom we get Lady Stoneheart not as Cat but Sansa. I might be losing it though and getting out of touch. lol Of course this is all assuming that Sansa will boor Ramsey and be killed by him rather then have Littlefingers plan go down where he kills the Boltons and marries Sansa.
 
I think the Stoneheart ship has sailed, but I'm really interested to see how HBO's Sansa ties back into Book sansa when the books come out. That story line is a omplete divergent and for a major character.

Jamie's is as well, but you don't get the sense that either the book story line for him nor the show's will have a big impact on the future.
 
This season story lines have been really bad. I complained that this season is going nowhere slowly. I still think that.

Pretty lame season especially after the tour de force last season by Dinklage.
 
This season story lines have been really bad. I complained that this season is going nowhere slowly. I still think that.

Pretty lame season especially after the tour de force last season by Dinklage.

Well that sort of describes Martin's last two books. They really (and literally) meandered around with little feeling of a defined path. I think thats the biggest problem with the show right now, its pulling from a really slow part of the books, and they are having a tough time figuring out how to handle it. If they followed the books more closely we'd all be asleep. The most intriguing parts of the show right now is Sansa in Winterfell and LF's plans. In the books they are just sitting around in the Vale babysitting Robert.

There are about 4 other story lines in the books that have been completely cut from the show, and thank God because they were just about new people traveling. If you think tyrion and Jorah floating down a river is boring, try about 3 more groups that nobody cares about, floating and walking and walking and floating.
 
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Yeah, this is where I quit reading the books. Just a whole lot of nothing going on.
 
So I just read something interesting. What if Littlefinger sent the viper with Lannister necklace? There is a theory out there that Sansa got one from Joffrey so Littlefinger might have access to one to one. This is interesting because what if he is trying to ruin the Lannisters by having them fight in the South and the North? I think he sees weakness now that the Tywin is dead Cersei is no match for him.

Also I re-watched the episode last night. Did any of you catch how Little finger handled Cersei compared to the Queen of Thornes. One went to her and gave news that made her mad at his enemy while the other just went in with insults. I think Cersei is very easy to manipulate but you have to use her anger against her rather then feed it.
 
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@Been Jammin
This scene Cersei says there are only two of these necklaces one I have and the other Marcella has. So then Jamie runs off to Dorne thinking they are threating Marcella. But Sansa made a comment that Joffrey had given her a necklace like Cersei's at one point in a prior season. This has lead some out to think one of two theories. 1. Littlefinger used Sansa's necklace to make Cersei think the Dornish were about to hurt her daughter or 2. Cersei herself sent the necklace to get Jamie to go rescue Marcella. Also of course there is the third option that Ellaria Sand sent it with out the King of Dorne knowing.
 
Yeah, this is where I quit reading the books. Just a whole lot of nothing going on.

Same here with the last two books. The first one covered half the characters and the next covered the other half plus picking back up with the first half in different time frames. I had a feeling someone was throwing spaghetti at the wall.

That's about the time I started skipping the chapters which were about characters I no longer cared for. When I buy a book for pleasure, it had better BE a pleasure or I'll jump right back into non-fiction. Only so many hours in a day.
 
I also wonder if some of this "laziness" is not having GRRM do an episode like years past. IMO he kinda reigns them back in from the lose tangents they get on with combining characters and cutting out others.

Also I have a theory on Sansa now. What if just what if they do combine more characters into one. Now what if Ramsey has Sansa killed and torn up by the hounds after he hunts her and kills her. Then leaves her where she is found by the Red priestess with Stanis and boom we get Lady Stoneheart not as Cat but Sansa. I might be losing it though and getting out of touch. lol Of course this is all assuming that Sansa will boor Ramsey and be killed by him rather then have Littlefingers plan go down where he kills the Boltons and marries Sansa.

I think Theon is going to tell Sansa that he didn't kill her brothers and they both go into full manipulation mode to take down the Boltons.
 
I think Theon is going to tell Sansa that he didn't kill her brothers and they both go into full manipulation mode to take down the Boltons.
The bodies were burnt, though, right? I thought Theon didn't know they were different boys. I thought someone else actually killed them.

After the hell he's been through, it's definitely time for Theon to catch a break. It would be rare for a real person to fully recover from the psychological damage he's suffered.
 
Theon knows it was not Bran and Rickon. He knows in both the book and TV versions.
 
I may have to drop this class. TWO F's in reading and viewing comprehension on the same day. Can I borrow somebody's notes?
 
The bodies were burnt, though, right? I thought Theon didn't know they were different boys. I thought someone else actually killed them.

After the hell he's been through, it's definitely time for Theon to catch a break. It would be rare for a real person to fully recover from the psychological damage he's suffered.

In the books Theon with the help of Ramsey disguised as someone else goes to a tavern or mill or something in a near by town. They find two boys of about the same age and I think flay and tar the bodies. Theon knew the whole time though in both books and TV because the reason for killing the other boys was because he lost Brann and Rickon after they escaped Winterfell.
 
On Margaery: Sounds like maybe you forgot (maybe not), but Margaery was also arrested in the books. The reason was different, but it was all set up by Cersei. I felt like Cersei also played a part in M's arrest last night, but maybe that was just because I had read the books.

On Myrcella/Dorne: In the books, it wasn't the Sand Snakes that kidnapped her. It was Doran's daughter (and her friends). I felt that last night's Dorne action was the worst thing HBO has done so far. The storyline was stupid. The fighting scene was cheesy, especially the conclusion where Hotah swings his axe and stops just before making contact with Jaime's neck. I thought it was ridiculous that Doran's son didn't say something along the lines of "why are you 2 dressed as Dornish soldiers?" instead of "I was not told that Myrcella's uncle would be visiting (paraphrased)". I thought it was ridiculous that the Sand Snakes would opt to prowl the Water Gardens at the very moment that Jaime/Bronn arrived.

Not sure what HBO is doing with Littlefinger. Maybe he is being consistent with the LF of the books, who is a master at turning factions against each other. I really have a tough time believing that GRRM's LF, would leave Sansa with the Boltons or tell Cersei that she is now in Winterfell. Him ever becoming the Warden of the North is laughable. Like any of the Northern Lords would ever support him. But, maybe he doesn't think it is realistic and this is just part of his plan. Who knows?

On Arya: Things are moving much faster for her than in the books, but I guess that is to be expected. It seems like they skipped the part where she drinks the potion and becomes blind while she trains. That is too bad, as it would have been really cool to see that part of her story, especially the part where she wargs into the cat in order to get the best of her master/trainer. My guess is that when next we see her, she will have the scene where she puts on a new face and begins to learn what it means to be an assassin.

On Sansa: I totally agree with you. That was hard to watch. I was half expecting Ramsay to make Theon "get her ready for him" like he did in the books, but couldn't figure out how they would pull that scene off with the limitations they have. I still can't believe HBO made her suffer through being engaged to Joffrey, be in the clutches of pedophile Littlefinger and now this. At least she was wed to Tyrion, who treated her well, in between. Theon has really become one of my favorite HBO characters. The actor does a great job of playing his part. You can just see him wrestling with every word/action as he struggles internally between the old Theon and the completely beaten down Reek.


I definetly agree on the Dorne storyline. It has been horrible. I really thought that Hotah was going to kill Bronn, especially when Doran asked him if he knew how to use his "axe" still. I think Bronn is going to die from the cut he got in the fight.


The show Littlefinger is really stupid. The show runners have said that Littlefinger legitimately did not know anything about Ramsay when he left Sansa at Winterfell even though Ramsay has been committing all these atrocities. He also flung the fact that he knew about Jaime and Cersei in her face again when they met up when the last time he did that she almost had him killed. I really think that his plan on the show is to save Sansa from the Boltons/Stannis, and then marry her to use the combined forces of the North and the Vale to march south to King's Landing.

I wish they would have done the potion that caused Arya to go blind, but understand that they couldn't do everything. The vault of faces was some of the shows best set design in my opinion. I really like what they have done with the story line and it has been one of the bright spots of this season.

I don't have much to add to what you said on Sansa's story other than it had to happen cause they put her in the spot of Jenye Poole and the bride of Ramsay gets raped on their wedding night. At least they just had Theon watch instead of participate like in the books.




I actually really like A Feast for Crows, it was good but in a different kind of way than the other 4 books. It was a lot of setup and most people don't like that but I enjoyed it. I really wish they had been able to publish they 4th and 5th books together cause the events in them are happening simultaneously.
 
In the books Theon with the help of Ramsey disguised as someone else goes to a tavern or mill or something in a near by town. They find two boys of about the same age and I think flay and tar the bodies. Theon knew the whole time though in both books and TV because the reason for killing the other boys was because he lost Brann and Rickon after they escaped Winterfell.

To clarify....

Bran and Rickon (along with Osha, Jojen, Meera, Hodor, Summer and Shaggy Dog). hide in the crypts below Winterfell. Theon, and everyone else, thinks that they escaped Winterfell. Theon,Reek and a group of Ironborn go out to find them. They fail to find them. Reek convinces Theon that he needs to do something, or the remaining Winterfell denizens, who are now prisoners, will no longer respect Theon and he will lose control. They kill a nearby Miller, his wife, and two boys. They then cover the boys with tar and pass them off as the murdered Bran and Rickon. Only Theon, Reek, and a few Ironborn, know the truth. Later, Theon feels that he will need more men if he is going to hold Winterfell. Reek leaves to bring a group of Bolton men to help the Ironborn. He returns with a group of men who slaughter the Ironborn and the remaining denizens of Winterfell. We then find out that Reek has actually been dead for a while and the guy Theon knew as Reek was actually Ramsay posing as Reek (which he did to avoid being captured and executed), This leaves Ramsay and Theon as the only ones who know the truth about Bran/Rickon. After Winterfell is abandoned, Bran, et al, come out of hiding and have a conversation with Maester Luwin, just before he dies under the Weirwood tree. We later find out that Wex (an Ironborn) is hiding in the tree at the time. He follows them when they leave Winterfell and continues to follow Rickon/Osha/Shaggy Dog when the group separates into two. He is the one who informs Lord Manderly that Rickon is still alive and where he is hiding.
 
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