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Anodyne and other Chicagoans

N. Pappagiorgio

MegaPoke is insane
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Mar 4, 2004
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My son will likely be attending law school at the University of Chicago or Northwestern (accepted to both). His fiance will be getting her graduate degree at Depaul most likely.
My question isn't related to the merits of each law school but more of a practical living question. Depaul is about 13 miles north of UoC and Northwestern is about 11 miles north of Depaul.

With that background, does one school stand out above the other in terms of living arrangements, affordability, etc...

Is there a perfect in-between location for either school?
 
First off, congrats to your son. That's big time!

The NU law school is downtown, just north of the river near Water Tower Place (Streeterville). That's a very, very expensive place to live, and it doesn't get much cheaper going in any direction for at least a couple of miles. Hyde Park (UofC) is much cheaper, and you can find a nice 2 bedroom apartment in a four or six flat near the lake. East Hyde Park is night and day from when I lived there almost ten years ago. It's really happening.

Many of DePaul's grad programs are at the downtown Loop campus, on Jackson---will she go there or DePaul's north side Lincoln Park campus? If the Loop, then Hyde Park would be best (if your son goes to UofC). The #6 express bus runs up Lake Shore Drive very frequently---10 or 12 minutes between HP and DePaul's Loop campus. If she's at DePaul's Lincoln Park campus, then the commute from Hyde Park is not good. They could live in the South Loop, walking distance to the red line train (Roosevelt or Harrison stop), where she can get to DePaul Lincoln Park in 20 minutes and he can get to UofC via the 6 bus in 10. South Loop is expensive, almost as much as Streeterville. Both the South Loop and Streeterville are high-rise condo and luxury apartment areas, while Hyde Park is two and three story walk-ups.
 
Originally posted by N. Pappagiorgio:
Thanks for your reply. I will find out which campus.
Are we to assume no biological connection between you two? Those are impressive offers!
 
I have very little to add, but I spent two years living in Lincoln Park with my wife and it was fantastic. I actually spent 1.5 hours each way commuting to the burbs during my time there just because I enjoyed the area so much. Wasn't a fan of the high-rise lifestyle coming from Oklahoma and the Old Town, Lincoln Park area was perfect. And I actually visited the DePaul campus in the loop a few times for work and very easy to get down there using public transit. I think most of the students I spoke to actually had CTA cards included in their student fees.
 
Originally posted by 100TonsofOrangeFury:
Originally posted by N. Pappagiorgio:
Thanks for your reply. I will find out which campus.
Are we to assume no biological connection between you two? Those are impressive offers!
I had him tested and sure enough, he is my offspring.

He's a bright kid who was encouraged to apply himself and he did.
 
NP,

My apologies in advance, as I am not going to give you suggestions on where your son should live in Chicago...

What I do want to tell you is that, unless, he was accepted to Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, or NYU, he should attend Univ of Chicago--no question. Northwestern is for applicants that did not get into Univ of Chicago.

He won't get a second shot to attend a top 5 elite law school. If he doesn't like U of C, he could always explore a transfer to NW--easier to swim downstream.
 
Originally posted by N. Pappagiorgio:
She will be at the undergrad campus.
That makes things a little trickier, if your son selects UofC (can't help but give my unsolicited advice: he should select UofC).

Lincoln Park to Hyde Park commute is not horrible, but certainly not ideal. There is no direct, non-stop mass transit option. From Lincoln Park it's a 15 minute ride on the CTA red line, then a transfer to the #6 bus for another 15 minutes (plus waiting on any connection). Or, stay on the red line to 55th/Garfield (20-25 minutes) and then wait on the #55 bus for a 10 minute ride to Hyde Park. Either way, you would count on 45 minute to a one hour to be safe.

Your in-between option would be the South Loop, where your son could walk to the 6 bus and his fiancee could walk to the red line to go north. You would want something between Harrison and Roosevelt, east of Clark. A 2BR would be well over $2000/mo. Maybe a 1 BR could be had for $1500.

It's tough, because no matter what you have the Loop right in the middle of the commute. Driving (off peak hours) would be much quicker, just a zip up Lake Shore Drive. Parking around both campuses is bad (really, really bad around DePaul. Not much better around the UofC law school on the south part of campus but not so bad north of campus).

Northwestern Law to DePaul options would be anything along the red/brown line between Chicago Avenue and Fullerton. I like Old Town and Lincoln Park south (around Oz Park). Not cheap. The former Cabrini-Green area, believe it or not, would be an option. It's a 'mixed income' development, with new town-homes and condos. A certain percentage of the market-rate housing is set aside as 'affordable' rentals. For example: http://holstenchicago.com/holstenproperties/larrabeeplace/index.htm. They're adjacent to Old Town, and a 1/2 mile walk to the red line.
 
Mario
He was accepted to NYU with a medium sized scholorship and is currently waitlisted at Harvard. He didn't apply to Stanford or Yale for various reasons.

The cost of law school is a huge factor in his decision as it should be. What's it worth to go to Harvard or Chicago? He has been offered a full ride at Northwestern as well as Virginia and Michigan. He has been offered partial scholorships at Chicago and NYU.

It's a tough call and he is evaluating the cost/benefit of each school.

He is also working around his future wife's PhD opportunities.

He feels very fortunate to be in the position he is in.
 
Originally posted by N. Pappagiorgio:
Mario
He was accepted to NYU with a medium sized scholorship and is currently waitlisted at Harvard. He didn't apply to Stanford or Yale for various reasons.

The cost of law school is a huge factor in his decision as it should be. What's it worth to go to Harvard or Chicago? He has been offered a full ride at Northwestern as well as Virginia and Michigan. He has been offered partial scholorships at Chicago and NYU.

It's a tough call and he is evaluating the cost/benefit of each school.

He is also working around his future wife's PhD opportunities.

He feels very fortunate to be in the position he is in.
That is just filthy awesome. At the end of the day, he'll get interviews with all the same firms (or maybe 98% of them) having gone to Virginia or Michigan or NW as you would having gone to UC. And to be debt free leaving law school? No brainer IMO when you factor in the costs.

While it's a big ego stroke to say you attended a top 5 law school, very doubtful there'd be any material difference in your life 5 years after graduation aside from the fact that you didn't have to pay off half an education's worth of loans.
 
NP,

Whether cost should a "huge factor" depends on what he wants to do with his law degree. How important is the size of the paycheck he will receive upon graduation and the type of work he will do? Big money at a big firm? Small money as a public defender? Modest money as a public sector government attorney? Unknown $ in politics? Or, a non-traditional legal career?

Here is why I weighed in on your thread...

Many moons ago, I turned down admission to UofC law school to attend UC-Boulder. The reason: at the time, UC-Boulder's instate tuition was just under $6K/year. UofC was approx $40K/year at that time. UC-Boulder is a solid public law school, but it wasn't going to open doors for me in big Chicago or NY law firms unless I was top 5% of my class. I did not realize that until much later, and made a decision to attend based entirely on cost of tuition. As for cost of living, I figured with a little effort to find equivalently priced living arrangements it would be a wash. As a general rule, Boulder isn't much cheaper than Chicago, if at all.

I never thought twice about the decision to attend UC-Boulder until it came time to hiring, as I really enjoyed my time there. However, I went to law school, in part, to make more $$ and that was only available (right away) at a big firm. A UofChi grad, as long as he isn't drooling on himself, will always get interviews at big time firms--usually without much regard to class rank. NW and UC-Boulder grads don't always get the invite (even if they are top 5 to 10% of their class). In my experience, that is true at most all firms in any city across the US. The UofChi degree has legal cache. It is elite. NW has cache too, but to a lesser extent.

As far as the economics, NW is more expensive per year than UofC. However, his scholarships make it less expensive (full ride vs partial scholarship). Despite that upfront savings, which is attractive, I believe immediate earning potential and breadth of opportunities upon graduation should be the driving factor, rather than cost of tuition. That sheepskin will mean a lot during his career and, many times, in unexpected ways. How much are the scholarships at UofChi? Do they cut tuition in half? So, just for discussion purposes, tuition at UofC *could* be approx $26K/year? Over the life of his legal career, that $78K for a legal education will be a drop in the well. Unless, he wants to be a DA/PD.

In short, you only get one chance to attend law school. I chose based on economics. In hindsight, for what I was trying to accomplish, that was not the wisest route. It all worked out--eventually--but, it took me 4-5 years of very hard work at small to medium firms to get to the "big firm" and I was making less $$ for more work during that time. I have never put pen to paper, but I'm guessing the salary loss was greater than the tuition savings.

By the way, if the wife is going to DePaul, he is likely not attending NYU, Harvard, UVA, or Michigan anyway. So, while those are VERY-VERY impressive accolades, it doesn't sound like they are truly being considered (just a guess).

One last note, if he knows what city he wants to live in and what type of work he wants to do, some would suggest attending the best regional law school for free and then knocking it out of the park as far as grades/class rank once there. Being the #1 grad at Zero U if you want to work in OKC or Dallas could be just as marketable as a middle of the pack grad from NW.
 
Originally posted by Mario_C:
NP,

Whether cost should a "huge factor" depends on what he wants to do with his law degree. How important is the size of the paycheck he will receive upon graduation and the type of work he will do? Big money at a big firm? Small money as a public defender? Modest money as a public sector government attorney? Unknown $ in politics? Or, a non-traditional legal career?

Here is why I weighed in on your thread...

Many moons ago, I turned down admission to UofC law school to attend UC-Boulder. The reason: at the time, UC-Boulder's instate tuition was just under $6K/year. UofC was approx $40K/year at that time. UC-Boulder is a solid public law school, but it wasn't going to open doors for me in big Chicago or NY law firms unless I was top 5% of my class. I did not realize that until much later, and made a decision to attend based entirely on cost of tuition. As for cost of living, I figured with a little effort to find equivalently priced living arrangements it would be a wash. As a general rule, Boulder isn't much cheaper than Chicago, if at all.

I never thought twice about the decision to attend UC-Boulder until it came time to hiring, as I really enjoyed my time there. However, I went to law school, in part, to make more $$ and that was only available (right away) at a big firm. A UofChi grad, as long as he isn't drooling on himself, will always get interviews at big time firms--usually without much regard to class rank. NW and UC-Boulder grads don't always get the invite (even if they are top 5 to 10% of their class). In my experience, that is true at most all firms in any city across the US. The UofChi degree has legal cache. It is elite. NW has cache too, but to a lesser extent.

As far as the economics, NW is more expensive per year than UofC. However, his scholarships make it less expensive (full ride vs partial scholarship). Despite that upfront savings, which is attractive, I believe immediate earning potential and breadth of opportunities upon graduation should be the driving factor, rather than cost of tuition. That sheepskin will mean a lot during his career and, many times, in unexpected ways. How much are the scholarships at UofChi? Do they cut tuition in half? So, just for discussion purposes, tuition at UofC *could* be approx $26K/year? Over the life of his legal career, that $78K for a legal education will be a drop in the well. Unless, he wants to be a DA/PD.

In short, you only get one chance to attend law school. I chose based on economics. In hindsight, for what I was trying to accomplish, that was not the wisest route. It all worked out--eventually--but, it took me 4-5 years of very hard work at small to medium firms to get to the "big firm" and I was making less $$ for more work during that time. I have never put pen to paper, but I'm guessing the salary loss was greater than the tuition savings.

By the way, if the wife is going to DePaul, he is likely not attending NYU, Harvard, UVA, or Michigan anyway. So, while those are VERY-VERY impressive accolades, it doesn't sound like they are truly being considered (just a guess).

One last note, if he knows what city he wants to live in and what type of work he wants to do, some would suggest attending the best regional law school for free and then knocking it out of the park as far as grades/class rank once there. Being the #1 grad at Zero U if you want to work in OKC or Dallas could be just as marketable as a middle of the pack grad from NW.
Spot on take, of course UC Boulder is not NW law school. Pretty minor decline in prestige or opportunities from UC to NW, fairly steep from UC to UC Boulder.

As a novice on legal employment, are there actually firms out there that wouldn't consider someone from a top20 law school, unless that someone were from a top 5? I know from having gone to a top 20 business school, the opportunities were still there for any employment destination, they just weren't anywhere as numerous as if you'd gotten a degree from a top 5.
 
These are the exact conversations we have been having for the last six months. His final scholarship number for Chicago is not in yet so we don't know the exact difference in cost between it and Northwestern. Is it worth $50,000 to go to Chicago? Absolutely. $100,000? Maybe. $150,000? Not so sure.


Nothing against Colorado as I'm sure it's a fine school but it would be difficult to compare it to Northwestern. When comparing percentages of graduates that got in to big law, Northwestern was ranked 6th at 51% and Chicago was ranked 2nd at 55%.
 
Originally posted by N. Pappagiorgio:
These are the exact conversations we have been having for the last six months. His final scholarship number for Chicago is not in yet so we don't know the exact difference in cost between it and Northwestern. Is it worth $50,000 to go to Chicago? Absolutely. $100,000? Maybe. $150,000? Not so sure.


Nothing against Colorado as I'm sure it's a fine school but it would be difficult to compare it to Northwestern. When comparing percentages of graduates that got in to big law, Northwestern was ranked 6th at 51% and Chicago was ranked 2nd at 55%.
Tough choice. A rich man's problems! In regards to the original intent of your post: living arrangements for an NU law-DePaul combo would be much more convenient and potentially cheaper than UofC-DePaul. Hyde Park is just a pain in the ass to get in and out of via car or CTA, unless you live in the immediate area (it's that way for a reason: thank UofC admin and old man Daley).
 
Originally posted by Anodyne:

Originally posted by N. Pappagiorgio:
These are the exact conversations we have been having for the last six months. His final scholarship number for Chicago is not in yet so we don't know the exact difference in cost between it and Northwestern. Is it worth $50,000 to go to Chicago? Absolutely. $100,000? Maybe. $150,000? Not so sure.


Nothing against Colorado as I'm sure it's a fine school but it would be difficult to compare it to Northwestern. When comparing percentages of graduates that got in to big law, Northwestern was ranked 6th at 51% and Chicago was ranked 2nd at 55%.
Tough choice. A rich man's problems! In regards to the original intent of your post: living arrangements for an NU law-DePaul combo would be much more convenient and potentially cheaper than UofC-DePaul. Hyde Park is just a pain in the ass to get in and out of via car or CTA, unless you live in the immediate area (it's that way for a reason: thank UofC admin and old man Daley).
Thanks Anodyne. I will definitely pass on the information and my son can plug it in to the matrix.
 
Originally posted by N. Pappagiorgio:

Nothing against Colorado as I'm sure it's a fine school but it would be difficult to compare it to Northwestern.
Originally posted by 100TonsofOrangeFury:
of course UC Boulder is not NW law school.
Gents, my apologies if my message was unclear.

The intent was not to compare UColo to NW. That comparison is wholly irrelevant for your son's situation. To clarify, the intent was to compare U of Chi to NW. I thought I said that, but maybe not. In that regard, I believe it would be a mistake to choose NW over UofC (even if it saves $150K). And, I do believe there is a marked prestige decline from UofC to NW. That perspective is based on years of practicing with grads from both schools. I admit the answers are not black and white. Just my opinion.

As far as hiring, I see the statistics quoted re: big law are contrary to my opinion and, perhaps, the gap has narrowed between the UofC and NW. However, I remain unconvinced and would choose UofC 100 out of 100 times over NW, regardless of cost. In short, I believe it's a higher percentage play justifying the expenditure.

Big picture: I am sure your son will do great at, and after, the institution from which he chooses to earn his law degree.

These kinds of "problems" or dilemmas are certainly excellent to have!
 
It looks like the difference between Chicago and Northwestern will be $135,000. $210,000 from Northwestern and $75,000 from Chicago.

Northwestern really wants him as they offered not only tuition, books and fees but also a $1,000/mo stipend.

Really tough call in my opinion.

This post was edited on 4/20 6:46 PM by N. Pappagiorgio
 
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